[Kibblelady]

There's too many to quote so if no one minds I'm just going to answer in one response.

First, corn is a common allergen for dogs. I believe that if you process anything enough it will become digestible to some degree. If this corn is mashed the cooked a bunch, maybe it's digestible. But, if I fed it naturally (meaning not processed or cooked a bunch) I would probably see it in poop, therefore I wouldn't feed it. Some dogs can eat veggies and not have stuff in their poop, others can eat them and they are in their poop. It's one of those things to me.

As far as Iams thanks for answering. I understand what you're saying about leading research, but I believe their research is more to help them sell more products instead of actually helping dogs.

My main problem is the cheap ingredients they use. Instead of by-products which are cheap to use and you never know how much of what is really in there why not use-eggs, chicken entrails, chicken necks, etc. Same with corn grits, brewers rice. Why not just use corn and rice then?

Actually corn is not a common allergen for dogs...no study or fact supports this at all. The common allergens are beef, chicken, wheat and others.

Processed corn has been proven over and over and over again to be highly digestibility (in the high 90 percentile) and very well tolerated. BV value of course is not the same as animal protein but is good. Of course raw corn would not be digested, no raw vegetable really is much at all. Dogs cannot digest plant cell walls, they lack the enzymes to accomplish this. This is why all vegetables and grains must be cooked/processed for dogs to derive the nutrition from them.

You may want to think that Iams's research is about profit but that is not so, the amount of money and resources they put into this area is enormous. If it were about profit they would not be doing it and would let Hills and RC pay for it instead.... look into their research department it is huge and has been for years.

They should use eggs, entrails and necks? This is what is contained in by-product meals among other things. You are basically talking about semantics, you do not like the term "by product" because you have been conditioned not to like it. You really have no true knowledge of what is in a by product meal and this is why this kind of thing happens. People without this specific knowledge write all kinds of things to influence others (not talking about you). Websites, blogs, articles, magazine articles and books...it is everywhere but, much of it is false and many are the victims of this problem.

Corn grits are processed and very, highly digestible as well as having other key benefits in this case. Brewers rice is simply rice fragments that are not "pretty" enough to put into bags of rice for sale to human consumers, it *is* rice. It is called Brewers rice because it was most often purchased by brewers in the past. It has less nutrients because it is incomplete kernels but is still fine for inclusion in a pet diet. Why pay for a more expensive rice which would drive the price for the consumer up when it is not necessary? Because it looks "better" on the ingredient panel? This is not a reason to do that. It is about a complete diet that contains the right nutrients that are available for assimilation not a "pretty" ingredient panel.

Think about when we go to the clothing store... some people want to have name brand articles of clothing, that's fine. But the person that decides to go to Walmart and buy an outfit also has clothing to wear and also has more money in their pocket. The name brand, while nice and makes us feel good about having, is still just a shirt or just pants. The difference is how one feels when wearing it, both do the job though.

 

[Kibblelady]

Kibblelady, I'll agree to disagree with you from here on out. I've been to many lectures, seminars, and conferences on nutrition and I've heard/read/experienced pretty much everything you've told me so far. I've read things published by kibble companies and vets and research trials...I've formed my own opinion. I have a background in science and I don't believe the studies done on dog foods are accurate, logical or even sufficient. That is of you can actually FIND the research articles with hypotheses, variables, data analysis, etc without paying for them.

AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me.

BB- bringing a baby into the home is a HUGE change for a dog. It's very stressful on them and different dogs show it differently. I can't remember what diagnostic work you've had done on her...full blood work? X-rays? Etc? I'd definitely lean toward behavioral stress causing symptoms rather than medical if diagnostics don't show anything significant. Because if nothing had changed in her diet but her environment has changed drastically my suspicion is stress induced issues.

Dane I do not remember called AAFCO standard "okay or sufficient"? Did I do that? The AAFCO as you know is just an organization created by the food companies to sort of group everyone together and get on the same page in the industry. While yes they really do not do things that actually umm test a food exactly or really gauge its usefulness or function it is something, which is better than nothing. Do not make the mistake of thinking that I think the pet food industry is perfect in this country, I don't. I am simply pointing out things I am seeing. I do not expect you to "agree" with me, that is not my goal at all. This is a discussion and many other people are reading these posts not just you and I. As for feeding trials can you please point me in the direction of a premade raw feeding study that has been done? I seriously cannot find one and I would be interested in reading that. I also have read so many studies it makes my head spin but I have never paid for them.... and I don't feel I have missed anything so I am confused by you saying that?

Also, do not think I am anti-raw. I am not. I understand it and just have not chosen to feed that way. I respect all successful manners of feeding our pets, to each their own.

 

[DaViking]

AFFCO standards are a joke. Their feeding trial regulations even more so. Stating that AFFCO says its ok or sufficient means zip squat to me.

I don't think many who post here are on a level where discussing AAFCO compliance makes much sense or hold any value. It's more or less a business friendly tweak of NRC's guidelines and should be treated as such. It might have some minimal value in that it curbs an absolute "wild west" industry but that's about it imo.

 

[SaharaNight Boxers]

The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag mixed with some potentially unsafe chemicals. There's ethoxyquin, sodium hexametaphosate.

And yes, I'm saying why not individually list? Then you actually know the percentages and what you are actually getting. You could be getting all refuse still, only feathers are excluded.

I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways.

The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!

 

[SaharaNight Boxers]

To the OP, this might help hopefully. You just add hot water, same as floating a kibble.

Simple Remedy for Upset Stomach - eVitamins.com - Lowest Price

 

[TTs Towel]

First, corn is a common allergen for dogs.

First, food allergy is not NEARLY as common as forum folk would have you believe. Atopy (environmental allergies) is WAY more common.

"Food allergy is ~10% as common as atopy in dogs and about as common as atopy in cats."
-- Merck Veterinary Manual

Now that that's out of the way we'll address corn. It gets blamed first when it shouldnt be. Sure, of the FEW dogs that are actually food allergic, there will be a percentage allergic to corn. But it does not top the list like people on the forums would claim.

"The most common food allergens for dogs are: beef, dairy, and wheat. These three ingredients account for 68% of canine food allergies. The most common food allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. These three ingredients account for 80% of feline food allergies."
01 Food Allergy Myths - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


So, we can say that corn may make up maybe 10%-15% of all food allergy (and that's def giving it the benefit of the doubt), which in itself is only 10% of all allergic dogs. 15% of 10% = 1.5% of allergic dogs are allergic to corn. But, someone comes on here and says they have an allergic, itchy dog and you get 400 responses that want to blame corn.

 

[Kibblelady]

The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag mixed with some potentially unsafe chemicals. There's ethoxyquin, sodium hexametaphosate.

And yes, I'm saying why not individually list? Then you actually know the percentages and what you are actually getting. You could be getting all refuse still, only feathers are excluded.

I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways.

The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!

Well you are of course entitled to your opinion, my concern is passing it as fact. Raw feeders do not like myths stated about their foods, nor do people with "high end" Kibbles....it causes arguments and such.. So is this Sodium Hexametaphosphate the new "bad" ingredient? There are always new ones, after this one there will be another, it never ends. What formulas contain ethoxyquin?

Of course a bag of Iams is not a bag of corn....but eh. BTW I do not feed Iams in case anyone was wondering lolsodsodium hexametaphosateium

 

[DaViking]

The way I look at it if I was a dog, a carnivore as Iams says, I wouldn't want to eat a bunch of corn and rice in a bag

It's a therapeutic formula for dogs with GI issues. Feeding dogs processed corn and rice carbohydrates as two main ingredients in a formula gives them access to easy energy with minimal digestive stress. Minimal production of acid. What do you suggest they replace those ingredients with? Meat?

I'm just going to stop with the corn because you're obviously set in your ways.

I don't think it is fair to claim others are so "set in your ways" when you are the one that repeated some old false myths about corn without providing any credible data backing it up. If something is "set" it's this old myth that keeps coming back.

The biggest joke is that Iams says they cater to feed a carnivore diet and then make a bag of corn!

It's not a bag of corn. It's a carefully formulated and balanced product intended to assist dogs in need of help. It works and until you can prove otherwise you should stop taking cheap jabs.

 

[SaharaNight Boxers]

The Sodium phosphate is man made and has no nutritional value. I'm pretty sure you know about ethoxyquin. Both are in there.

I would replace it with chicken and rice.

I don't think that having a bit of corn is bad all the time, but when all the food is is corn, that's bad. We are all entitled to our own opinions though. And I'm referencing all the formulas and their premium formulas.

And sure it may work, Duke was on something like this for colonitis, but now I know there's better ways to solve the issues.

 

[Breathing Borla]

well guys,

i bit the bullet and feed her a whole meal with the IAMS (just now), I sure hope I'm not making a mistake but I will trust the vet. I think when I get these issues resolved I will go with a less dense and rich food, maybe a single protein from Acana which is down to 25% protein from EVOs 42%. I would maybe still consider staying on EVO if this seems to calm down but I really not sure. The Acana foods look really good but she did really bad on orijec adult so after looking at the Acana and orijen they seem different.

first things first, well see if its the food issue. The vet said this IAMS is so easy to digest that you can just switch cold turkey and you don't have to fade it in a normal food swtich procedures.

wish me and Roxy luck

 

[Kibblelady]

The Sodium phosphate is man made and has no nutritional value. I'm pretty sure you know about ethoxyquin. Both are in there.

I would replace it with chicken and rice.

I don't think that having a bit of corn is bad all the time, but when all the food is is corn, that's bad. We are all entitled to our own opinions though. And I'm referencing all the formulas and their premium formulas.

And sure it may work, Duke was on something like this for colonitis, but now I know there's better ways to solve the issues.

Wait, you did not reference sodium phosphate, you referenced sodium hexametaphosphate, which is it you are questioning? I also asked which formulas of Iams have the ethoxyquin in them?I am not going to comment on what you would replace the corn grits in this formula with because I am not a vet and there are too many variables to what needs to be here...personally with my understanding of it, I would use eggs, but that's just me.

 

[Kibblelady]

well guys,

i bit the bullet and feed her a whole meal with the IAMS (just now), I sure hope I'm not making a mistake but I will trust the vet. I think when I get these issues resolved I will go with a less dense and rich food, maybe a single protein from Acana which is down to 25% protein from EVOs 42%. I would maybe still consider staying on EVO if this seems to calm down but I really not sure. The Acana foods look really good but she did really bad on orijec adult so after looking at the Acana and orijen they seem different.

first things first, well see if its the food issue. The vet said this IAMS is so easy to digest that you can just switch cold turkey and you don't have to fade it in a normal food swtich procedures.

wish me and Roxy luck

Good luck guys! Keep us updated as your story is interesting to a number of us

 

[Roo]

Actually corn is not a common allergen for dogs...no study or fact supports this at all. The common allergens are beef, chicken, wheat and others.

Now that that's out of the way we'll address corn. It gets blamed first when it shouldnt be. Sure, of the FEW dogs that are actually food allergic, there will be a percentage allergic to corn. But it does not top the list like people on the forums would claim.

"The most common food allergens for dogs are: beef, dairy, and wheat. These three ingredients account for 68% of canine food allergies. The most common food allergens in cats are: beef, dairy, and fish. These three ingredients account for 80% of feline food allergies."
01 Food Allergy Myths - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

The food allergy myths information posted seems to be from 2001, perhaps information/opinion has changed since then. Both of you are saying that corn isn't a common food allergen, yet that doesn't seem to be the opinion I've been reading from vets in the dermatology field.

2010 Penn Veterinarian Medicine Conference, FOOD ALLERGY - WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, Page 152, by Anthony Yu, DVM, MS, DACVD, Associate Professor, Dermatology, University of Guelph, Ontario Veterinary College, Guelph, ON, Canada
"Confirmation of food allergy can only be determined by an elimination trial. The diet is restricted to specific food
determined by the animal's previous exposure and known reactions. Food items most commonly causing food allergy
include beef, milk, lamb, wheat, corn, chicken egg, soy, chicken in dogs, adding tuna and salmon to the list in cats."
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/Calendar/PAC%202010%20-%20Proceedings.pdf

Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists, Dr. Nina Shoulberg MS, DVM, Feb 2011, Food Allergies
"Approximately 15% of allergic dogs and cats develop allergies to foods. Almost always, the allergy is to the protein in the diet. An animal can develop an allergy to any protein. It is not the amount, but the type of protein that is important. Dogs commonly develop allergies to beef, chicken, corn, dairy, eggs, soy and wheat, while cats often develop allergies to fish, dairy and beef."
Food Allergies - Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists

Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic, Dallas TX, FAQ page on Food allergy diets
"Q: What are the most common food allergens? A: Beef, chicken, wheat, corn, soy, dairy, egg, and fish."
Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic - Dietary elimination trial

Veterinary Partner, Carol S. Foil, DVM, MS, Diplomate A.C.V.D., Board-certified specialist through the American College of Veterinary Dermatology
"Some pets develop specific hypersensitivities to components of their diets. The allergen usually is a major protein or carbohydrate ingredient such as beef, chicken, pork, corn, wheat, or soy."
Itching and Allergy in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Dr. Sandra Sargent, Vet dermatologist at Pittsburgh Vet Specialty and Emergency Center in Ohio Township
"The vast majority of food allergies in pets are sensitivities to beef, dairy, wheat, corn, soy, chicken, turkey and eggs."
Your Pet

Rocky Mountain Veterinary Dermatology
"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. The most common offenders in dog foods are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. These are the most common ingredients in dog foods."
http://www.rmvetderm.com/Understanding Food Allergies and Diet Trials.pdf

Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic, April 2012, Vet Dermatologist Dr. Amy Randall
"The component of the food that the animal reacts to is the protein. Most common proteins include: beef, chicken, fish, egg, dairy, soy, corn, wheat, rice."
Food Allergies in Cats and Dogs | Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic

Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies, Jan 2012, Dr. Stephen White, professor of dermatology at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine
"The most common proven allergens in the dog are beef, chicken, milk, eggs, corn, wheat, and soy; in the cat, fish, beef, milk and milk products."
Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies | Seattle Times Newspaper

 

[Kibblelady]

The food allergy myths information posted seems to be from 2001, perhaps information/opinion has changed since then. Both of you are saying that corn isn't a common food allergen, yet that doesn't seem to be the opinion I've been reading from vets in the dermatology field.

2010 Penn Veterinarian Medicine Conference, FOOD ALLERGY - WHAT YOU KNOW, WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW, AND WHAT YOU SHOULD KNOW, Page 152, by Anthony Yu, DVM, MS, DACVD, Associate Professor, Dermatology, University of Guelph, Ontario Veterinary College, Guelph, ON, Canada
"Confirmation of food allergy can only be determined by an elimination trial. The diet is restricted to specific food
determined by the animal's previous exposure and known reactions. Food items most commonly causing food allergy
include beef, milk, lamb, wheat, corn, chicken egg, soy, chicken in dogs, adding tuna and salmon to the list in cats."
http://www.vet.upenn.edu/Portals/0/images/Calendar/PAC%202010%20-%20Proceedings.pdf

Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists, Dr. Nina Shoulberg MS, DVM, Feb 2011, Food Allergies
"Approximately 15% of allergic dogs and cats develop allergies to foods. Almost always, the allergy is to the protein in the diet. An animal can develop an allergy to any protein. It is not the amount, but the type of protein that is important. Dogs commonly develop allergies to beef, chicken, corn, dairy, eggs, soy and wheat, while cats often develop allergies to fish, dairy and beef."
Food Allergies - Northeast Veterinary Dermatology Specialists

Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic, Dallas TX, FAQ page on Food allergy diets
"Q: What are the most common food allergens? A: Beef, chicken, wheat, corn, soy, dairy, egg, and fish."
Animal Dermatology Referral Clinic - Dietary elimination trial

Veterinary Partner, Carol S. Foil, DVM, MS, Diplomate A.C.V.D., Board-certified specialist through the American College of Veterinary Dermatology
"Some pets develop specific hypersensitivities to components of their diets. The allergen usually is a major protein or carbohydrate ingredient such as beef, chicken, pork, corn, wheat, or soy."
Itching and Allergy in Dogs - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!

Dr. Sandra Sargent, Vet dermatologist at Pittsburgh Vet Specialty and Emergency Center in Ohio Township
"The vast majority of food allergies in pets are sensitivities to beef, dairy, wheat, corn, soy, chicken, turkey and eggs."
Your Pet

Rocky Mountain Veterinary Dermatology
"Several studies have shown that some ingredients are more likely to cause food allergies than others. The most common offenders in dog foods are beef, dairy products, chicken, lamb, fish, chicken eggs, corn, wheat, and soy. These are the most common ingredients in dog foods."
http://www.rmvetderm.com/Understanding Food Allergies and Diet Trials.pdf

Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic, April 2012, Vet Dermatologist Dr. Amy Randall
"The component of the food that the animal reacts to is the protein. Most common proteins include: beef, chicken, fish, egg, dairy, soy, corn, wheat, rice."
Food Allergies in Cats and Dogs | Animal Allergy and Ear Clinic

Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies, Jan 2012, Dr. Stephen White, professor of dermatology at the University of California, Davis, School of Veterinary Medicine
"The most common proven allergens in the dog are beef, chicken, milk, eggs, corn, wheat, and soy; in the cat, fish, beef, milk and milk products."
Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Food allergies | Seattle Times Newspaper

You did notice that none of the above blurbs identified corn as the first allergen causing food? I believe most of them, without scrolling above, had it listed after beef, dairy, wheat etc right? The information on the web has it consistently listed as number one, it is not number one. Also too many people think their dog has an allergy and if they are eating a kibble with corn people immediately deem it the cause. Most dogs "reacting" are having a problem with the overall diet they are being fed or having an intolerance problem. Heck I encountered a woman online claiming her 12 week old puppy had a corn allergy...that was ridiculous. If only 15% of dogs actually have an allergy and corn is basically not named as a cause until like number 4 at least how is corn a "common allergen?" Are you following me? Corn is well digested and tolerated by dogs. I could go get a bunch of studies and quotes supporting this but they are very easy to find, PubMed is full of them. That is where I started when I researched it. It was eye opening to see that everything said about corn was not true....

 

[Kat]

I will never agree with feeding a dog food with its main ingredient being corn. Of course vet diets say corn is fine and highly digestible, but it pretty much comes out the same way it went in. Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free... which also shows the dog/cat is not using everything in their food. My cats used to be on a prescription diet 3 years ago, their poops were huge and smelly. They now eat Acana praire, and their poops are soooo much smaller.

"Corn has been linked to many dog ailments such as allergies, joint swelling, bloat and there have been some cases of aflatoxin contamination associated with corn in dog food. The corn that is used in dog food is sometimes contaminated with mycotoxins (toxins from mold or fungi). Corn metabolizes in dogs similar to the way sugar metabolizes in humans. It's like feeding a child foods high in corn syrup. The dog is not going to be as healthy and may experience energy rushes, crashes, hyperactivity and a hard time concentrating. Studies have also shown that high doses of corn can inhibit serotonin in the brain. Serotonin is an important chemical that reduces stress and anxiety."

 

[NewYorkDogue]

While dogs may be able to "digest" corn, the question, in my opinion, to ask is..."Is it species appropriate." If not, the price to pay in terms of digestion may be too high.

Look at how cows are fed via factory farms in this country: tons of corn is fed to these animals whose systems were designed to digest grass. This article explains: INDUSTRIAL FARM ANIMAL PRODUCTION: The cost of corn-fed cattle | The Conservation Report

I just believe it's not nice to fool with Mother Nature...

 

[Roo]

I've never seen it stated as the number one food allergen, and technically that's not what you and T referenced in your posts, you clearly stated "not common", you didn't state "not the number one food allergen", of course it seems I'm splitting hairs here, as the vets in the field seem to state that corn is among the most common food allergens for dogs, whether number one or four. I agree about the food intolerances, I think I read somewhere from a vet dermatologist that food sensitivities are much more common than food allergies, and I would think that corn can be included as a possible food intolerance or sensitivity.

Yes corn can be technically digestible (in certain processed forms), a source of energy, protein, fatty acids etc, but as you pointed out earlier, there are more complete proteins, higher sources of energy (per gram), and higher sources of fatty acids for dogs in other food sources besides corn. I don't think corn is "evil", I just feel there are better food sources out there for what corn provides, I don't have an issue with carbs, however I do question the amounts and sometimes the quality of carbs used in a lot of commercial foods. I've read some of the studies out there and usually am less than impressed, especially the studies done or funded for by the dog food companies themselves on their own products, I know who else is gonna do them or pay for them, but I would be far less concerned about possible bias if they were independently done.

 

[SaharaNight Boxers]

Wait, you did not reference sodium phosphate, you referenced sodium hexametaphosphate, which is it you are questioning? I also asked which formulas of Iams have the ethoxyquin in them?I am not going to comment on what you would replace the corn grits in this formula with because I am not a vet and there are too many variables to what needs to be here...personally with my understanding of it, I would use eggs, but that's just me.

Sorry, I have to admit I just didn't want to write it out, but I meant the same one. And like I said this one that is being discussed has ethoxyquin.

 

[Kibblelady]

I will never agree with feeding a dog food with its main ingredient being corn. Of course vet diets say corn is fine and highly digestible, but it pretty much comes out the same way it went in. Corn based kibble produces bigger poops than grain free... which also shows the dog/cat is not using everything in their food. My cats used to be on a prescription diet 3 years ago, their poops were huge and smelly. They now eat Acana praire, and their poops are soooo much smaller.

"Corn has been linked to many dog ailments such as allergies, joint swelling, bloat and there have been some cases of aflatoxin contamination associated with corn in dog food. The corn that is used in dog food is sometimes contaminated with mycotoxins (toxins from mold or fungi). Corn metabolizes in dogs similar to the way sugar metabolizes in humans. It's like feeding a child foods high in corn syrup. The dog is not going to be as healthy and may experience energy rushes, crashes, hyperactivity and a hard time concentrating. Studies have also shown that high doses of corn can inhibit serotonin in the brain. Serotonin is an important chemical that reduces stress and anxiety."

Honestly this wasn't about what you think, what others thinks or anyone's thoughts on corn at all. This was about Roxy and her owner figuring out what they were going to do in reference to their vet's advice. I really will not be dragged into another corn debate as it never ends and people want to hang on to their core like beliefs that it cannot be beneficial, I think there is a huge thread on the ingredient board for corn debate? I have my thoughts and knowledge on corn and that is what I shared with Roxy's owner. The choice is up to them what to do and they decided. I hope everything calms down with Roxy and she feels better really soon.

As far as stool size etc...this is largely based on fiber sources not on a dog pooing out "things it did not use."

 

[Kat]

Honestly this wasn't about what you think, what others thinks or anyone's thoughts on corn at all. This was about Roxy and her owner figuring out what they were going to do in reference to their vet's advice. I really will not be dragged into another corn debate as it never ends and people want to hang on to their core like beliefs that it cannot be beneficial, I think there is a huge thread on the ingredient board for corn debate? I have my thoughts and knowledge on corn and that is what I shared with Roxy's owner. The choice is up to them what to do and they decided. I hope everything calms down with Roxy and she feels better really soon.

As far as stool size etc...this is largely based on fiber sources not on a dog pooing out "things it did not use."

What do you think poop is? Its the leftover waste from what was eaten, the things the body didnt have use for.

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but dogs and cats dont eat corn in the wild, so why should it be in their kibble? I am not going to add anymore about the corn debate than that.