[xxshaelxx]

TI fed grain free foods since their introduction and after some extensive research I recently changed to this food because of excess shedding on grain free foods.

If I'm not mistaken, in humans, your hair and fingernails grow faster when you are more healthy...if this is true, and it pertains to dogs as well, I would much prefer my dogs to shed a lot more, as much of an inconvenience as it is to myself. *shrug*

 

[CorgiPaws]

To answer the OP question, I believe the best grain inclusive food is Eagle Pack Power Formula a super premium food. It's a very clean food with a simple formula and has very high quality ingredients.

There is no quality of this food that makes it a "simple" food. It does not have a limited ingredient list. it contains more than one protein source. More than one grain. More fillers. I am not sure in what world it's considered "simple" or "clean" or dare I say... species appropriate. Eagle Pack is one of two brands (the other being Blackwood) that really get under my skin. Premium claims. premium prices. Found in premium stores. JUNK ingredient list. I don't get it....

Grain free is NOT carb free and what dogs really do best on is a low carb food that gets the bulk of it's protein from a good quality meat and without glutens.

Right! That's a common misconception that I can't stand! All grain free food is NOT low carb. However, ALL low carb food IS grain free. Eagle Pack is not a low carb food, at all. Hence rice & corn.

. Carbs are utilized and can be beneficial for a bitch in whelp or a dog that's recovering from an injury.

Carbs are not a necessary part of ANY dog's diet, male female, breeding or not. There is no minimum requirement to sustain optimum health, and in fact, in excess, they are the root of MANY health issues.

My well fed dogs have always eaten grass, berries and fruit from my many different fruit trees, tell them they aren't omnivores!

Put a Chocolate bar in front of my dogs, and I guarantee you, without the shadow of a doubt, they will eat it. That means nothing about their species classification or nutritional needs. nothing.
That being said, my Corgi will also eat a steaming pile of poo, should he get the chance. ALWAYS has. Owning a dog daycare and boarding business, I see it ALL THE TIME. A good 40% of the dogs that come through here will nibble another dog's poo given the chance. I suppose that's necessary, too?

For the health of your dogs, quality of ingredients should be the most important factor that one should consider when selecting a dog food, not whether or not it has grains in it.

But... whether or not a food has grains in it has a LOT to do with the quality of ingredients. I also would take into HUGE account the reliability (or lack thereof) of the company producing said food, as well as nutrient analysis.


ETA: I can't help but notice all of your pro-Eagle Pack information is, well, written by Eagle Pack. Perhaps seek sources that can't many money off of your choice of food. Seek information that is based off of actual experience, not bogus "food trials" in which only 6 of 8 dogs have to be alive after a few weeks. Do not be brainwashed by propaganda from a company explaining why their cheap fillers are "good" and "beneficial."

 

[PUNKem733]

Congratulations foodie, you've been taken for a ride, and duped. The marketing team for Eagle have earned their money on people like you.

 

[Foodie]

Hey Foodie. Welcome to the board. Let me explain a few things to you about dog food and dog food companies. First, "premium", "super premium" and "holistic" are terms with no legal definitions. Any dog food company can call their product any or all of these things regardless of the quality of the ingredients in them. Ol' Roy can declare it's products "Super Premium" if they wish. None of the Eagle Pack foods would meet what a normal person would call "premium". They are all pretty medicore foods on the lower end of the spectrum.



Words straight from their marketing department.



More words straght from Eagle Pack marketing department.



Then understand that words you see printed on the web page of a dog food manufacturer are not science. Heck, they aren't even theories. They are sales pitches designed to entice you to buy their products.



They aren't omnivores. Dogs eat those things for the same reason we eat cake, ice cream, and candy. For the sugar and the taste. They derive no nutrition from them.



Despite what Eagle Pack's marketing department says, corn is a very low quality "food" and is used in dog food as a filler. When you are researching ingredients, look to other places than the dog food companies for your information. Always be wary of information given to you by someone who will make money from the decisions you make based on the information they give you. Get your information from disinterested parties.



They are not good for any dogs.



This is promotional material straight from Eagle Pack's web site. It absolutely cannot be believed. Again, the purpose of their web site is to entice you to buy their product. IT IS NOT SCIENCE.

I understand where your coming from and what your saying but I have researched the source of these ingredients and I say this is a clean food. I could have written a dissertation about corn but I choose to use what EP has to say on the subject, it's much easier and they have it right. :tongue:

I believe the grain free feeders protest way to much. Calm down, I've been there, I fed grain free for years and I'm not killing my dog . I'm not telling you to feed EP and I'm not berating you for what you feed. Believe me, I'm not uneducated and I know all about marketing. :biggrin:

 

[Foodie]

If I'm not mistaken, in humans, your hair and fingernails grow faster when you are more healthy...if this is true, and it pertains to dogs as well, I would much prefer my dogs to shed a lot more, as much of an inconvenience as it is to myself. *shrug*

This doesn't pertain to dogs. If your dog is excessively shedding there could be a nutritional connection.

 

[ghostrunner]

So that everyone is clear about my post (and question) a few pages back - I do NOT believe that corn is appropriate for dogs. The text I cited provides recent scientific data showing that corn is poorly digested by dogs, and thus offers little nutritional value.

The discussion I started was about whole grains as compared to other starches -- NOT corn. Thank you to those who provided thoughtful replies. So as not to hijack this post, I'll move my thread to a new post in the appropriate section of this forum.

 

[Foodie]

Because of my interest in the subject, I had our library order a copy of a very nice book called "Nutrient Requirements in Dogs and Cats" published in 2006 by the NRC. From what I can gather, it summarizes and cites the known clinical and cellular research on cat/dog nutrition and digestion. This book, and the studies it cites, are my main source of information here. Page 55, in particular, lists some very interesting recent laboratory studies--none of which were funded by dog food companies--concerning the digestibility of starches and, in particular, grains. One quick quote: "Ileal and total tract digestibilities of raw rice and corn starch...are greater than 90%, but digestibilities of raw tapioca and potato starches are only 65 and 0% respectively." (Schlineman et al, 1989).

I own this book and I doubt most people out here could digest it :wink:. Good luck reading it, your on the right track.

 

[Foodie]

Congratulations foodie, you've been taken for a ride, and duped. The marketing team for Eagle have earned their money on people like you.

Are you sure? Maybe your the one that's being duped.:wink: Money is not an issue for me but I feel I'm paying the appropriate amount for EP and I'm sure much less than what grain free feeders pay.

 

[RawFedDogs]

If money is the issue, why not feed Ol' Roy. It's the cheapest and the first ingredient is corn. Sounds right up your alley. :smile:

 

[Foodie]

There is no quality of this food that makes it a "simple" food. It does not have a limited ingredient list. it contains more than one protein source. More than one grain. More fillers. I am not sure in what world it's considered "simple" or "clean" or dare I say... species appropriate. Eagle Pack is one of two brands (the other being Blackwood) that really get under my skin. Premium claims. premium prices. Found in premium stores. JUNK ingredient list. I don't get it....


Right! That's a common misconception that I can't stand! All grain free food is NOT low carb. However, ALL low carb food IS grain free. Eagle Pack is not a low carb food, at all. Hence rice & corn.


Carbs are not a necessary part of ANY dog's diet, male female, breeding or not. There is no minimum requirement to sustain optimum health, and in fact, in excess, they are the root of MANY health issues.


Put a Chocolate bar in front of my dogs, and I guarantee you, without the shadow of a doubt, they will eat it. That means nothing about their species classification or nutritional needs. nothing.
That being said, my Corgi will also eat a steaming pile of poo, should he get the chance. ALWAYS has. Owning a dog daycare and boarding business, I see it ALL THE TIME. A good 40% of the dogs that come through here will nibble another dog's poo given the chance. I suppose that's necessary, too?


But... whether or not a food has grains in it has a LOT to do with the quality of ingredients. I also would take into HUGE account the reliability (or lack thereof) of the company producing said food, as well as nutrient analysis.


ETA: I can't help but notice all of your pro-Eagle Pack information is, well, written by Eagle Pack. Perhaps seek sources that can't many money off of your choice of food. Seek information that is based off of actual experience, not bogus "food trials" in which only 6 of 8 dogs have to be alive after a few weeks. Do not be brainwashed by propaganda from a company explaining why their cheap fillers are "good" and "beneficial."

My apologies to you corgipaws, I did respond to your post but for some reason it didn't show up when I hit submit reply. I don't want to type it all over again. here's the short version..... if you "don't get it" about EP then don't feed it. I don't really want want to educate or change you. I never said EP was low carb although it does have lower carbs than most dog foods. Just because a food contains 2 different grains doesn't make it high carb.

Basically, your chocolate example was poor. My dogs hunt for their own fruit. The biggest cause of poop eating is boredom. Do you think it's a coincidence that people that pay to have their dogs watched and entertained also have problems with coprophagia? Also, poop that is rich in nutrients becomes something worth eating. My dogs have NEVER eaten poop.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of quality (couldn't decipher the meaning of your last point.)

 

[Foodie]

If money is the issue, why not feed Ol' Roy. It's the cheapest and the first ingredient is corn. Sounds right up your alley. :smile:

I thought I already mentioned money is not an issue. Such passive agressive hostility. This doesn't seem like a very friendly forum.

 

[ghostrunner]

I own this book and I doubt most people out here could digest it :wink:. Good luck reading it, your on the right track.

Thank you for letting me know that I'm on the right track. I admit I'm confused, though. I don't see how you could read the sections in this book pertaining to carbohydrate metabolism and come away with the conclusion that corn is healthy for dogs. What do you make of the data presented in Tables 4-7 and 4-9? I think the most you can say in favor of corn is that it is effective in the treatment of pellagra in dogs (pg 222), though I don't know how common that is.

I do, however, admit that the language on page 61 ("They reported that ground wheat...") is interesting.

Since you have the book, I'll be interested in your thoughts.

 

[Foodie]

Thank you for letting me know that I'm on the right track. I admit I'm confused, though. I don't see how you could read the sections in this book pertaining to carbohydrate metabolism and come away with the conclusion that corn is healthy for dogs. What do you make of the data presented in Tables 4-7 and 4-9? I think the most you can say in favor of corn is that it is effective in the treatment of pellagra in dogs (pg 222), though I don't know how common that is.

I do, however, admit that the language on page 61 ("They reported that ground wheat...") is interesting.

Since you have the book, I'll be interested in your thoughts.

I just pulled my book out. Your overthinking this too much if your worried about "Characteristics of Selected Fibers", Where on page 61 are you seeing "They reported that ground wheat...."? Do you have a biochemistry background or any training in physiology?

 

[Foodie]

What you should be getting out of this chapter is that no SUL or MR for many carbohydrates have been established.

 

[Foodie]

Try reading this first: Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Hand, Thatcher, Remillard, Roudebush.

 

[ghostrunner]

I just pulled my book out. Your overthinking this too much if your worried about "Characteristics of Selected Fibers", Where on page 61 are you seeing "They reported that ground wheat...."? Do you have a biochemistry background or any training in physiology?

Forgive me, since I'm a bit new to message boards and forums. Since you believe that my credentials are at issue, yes, I have a PhD in cellular and molecular physiology with a focus on cardiac muscle behavior. I also have an MD and am board-certified in cardiology. I am a researcher and clinician at a university, where I conduct laboratory research on the molecular basis of arrhythmias. Most important of all, I'm a big dog enthusiast and haven't fed my retriever anything but Champion products for years.

The sentence on page 61 is on the left hand column, in the paragraph beginning "Dogs are capable of utilizing..."

 

[PUNKem733]

Are you sure? Maybe your the one that's being duped.:wink: Money is not an issue for me but I feel I'm paying the appropriate amount for EP and I'm sure much less than what grain free feeders pay.

Yeah that's it, I love to go on a manufacturer's site, and take their word on on canine nutrition as the bible.

 

[meggels]

Man, you guys sure did get way off topic LOL.

So, it seems that if I do stick with grain free, the only one in my budget would be TOTW. I've fed it before with good results, so I'm willing to try it again.

If not, it'll be a grain inclusive food, either Nature's Variety *prairie* or Fromm 4 star line.

 

[kevin bradley]

I hope no one complains about this post going off the charts. I learned a lot and may possibly be one step close to a different way of thinking. Not sure I'm ready to leap yet but I will say that if Champion does one thing to push me....I know where I'll be going.

Some of it is logistical for me....I don't have room to hold lbs and lbs of raw meat in my house. I'd have to invest in a small freezer in the basement which I know isn't a huge deal(believe they are pretty cheap).

Good topic. Informative.

 

[meggels]

I hope no one complains about this post going off the charts. I learned a lot and may possibly be one step close to a different way of thinking. Not sure I'm ready to leap yet but I will say that if Champion does one thing to push me....I know where I'll be going.

Some of it is logistical for me....I don't have room to hold lbs and lbs of raw meat in my house. I'd have to invest in a small freezer in the basement which I know isn't a huge deal(believe they are pretty cheap).

Good topic. Informative.

Well, I'd still love to hear people's opinions, which is why I originally started the topic to begin with. So, yeah, I'm a little bummed that only like 2 people actually answered the original question lol.