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Discussion Starter #1
I know many people feel that grain free is the best way to go, but what are some of your opinions on some of the best foods out there that DO include grains? What makes you believe that these foods are some of the best?
 

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id say canidae is a good grained food,although its still grained...

if you want a grain free food for price,taste of the wild is only slightly more than most of the top grained foods out there so id say go for that. the best grained food is lliek the best disease...its still the ebst of the worst...and id rather have the worst of the best(TOTW) anywday.
 

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Unfortunately commercial pet food makers have included grain in the majority of dry kibbles out there. personally, i do not feed my dogs a kibble that has grain, but if i were to make a decision as to which kibble that includes grain would i feed my pooch it would be the Fromm Gold series, Fromm Adult GOLD I like the company mainly because it does not share plants with other companies, it is a family owned business and operated for over 70 years (i think) and the ingredients are decent, in addition, the grain ingredients arent till 4th or 5th on the list. Again, my pooches get grain-free food, but if i had to switch them over it would most probably be Fromm.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?
I never said I wanted to....

I thought the general consensus here (or among some members) was that some dogs just DON'T do well on a grain free food? Hence, my question on what are the best kibbles that are grain inclusive...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Adding grain to your dogs diet is the worst thing you could do aside from feeding them sawdust.
Well, that's a bit dramatic, isn't it? :tongue:

I dunno, I think there's a lot of great foods, and for the most part, I'm behind the grain free "movement" but I've seen dozens upon dozens of dogs thrive and be healthy and beautiful on a grain inclusive diet. I feed my dogs the grain free Acana, so it's not like I am feeding a grain inclusive food.

I would love to hear some serious and on topic answers though...
 

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I like Jon's opinions and think he's pretty on with his advice...

but I'd agree that it the same as "eating sawdust" is a bit extreme.


to answer your question...Acana non grain free, Innova, Cal Natural, Castor Pollux Organix(believe its grain inclusive)....would be my recommendations.

I'm not sure where I stand on the "Dogs should only have meat" debate. I've read both sides and without having my own University Study, I'm not sure who the hell to believe. That being said, I do feed grain free.

I think one mistake people make(at least I did in the beginning) is that we equate "grain free" w/ no carbs. Hardly the case. Not even close.
 

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My dog did very well on the Fromm 4 Star varieties, and like others have said, I like the company's philosophies and practices.

I'm really wavering in the grain-free issue, too, and thought about going back to these foods as I took TOTW out of the line-up. I chose Acana grain-free based a lot on opinions here.
 

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I'm thinking we will soon see the grain inclusive line of Orijen.
 

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I'm thinking we will soon see the grain inclusive line of Orijen.
Not sure why they would do this -- seems like it could cause some confusion and cheapen the perception of their product line. Still, as long as it doesn't change or cheapen their grain-free formulas, I suppose there's no harm in it.
 

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Rocky did very well on Innova Large Breed Puppy and Chelsy did well on Innova Senior Plus which is the only one that had extra B vitamins for her neurological problems.

I also think Chicken Soup is not a bad grain inclusive food for the price if you are looking in that range. I know people hate Diamond products, but it really isn't a bad quality food considering ingredients only and if you want a lower price item.

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract,
 

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Orijen already has a grain inclusive line in Canada and apparantly else where but not in the U.S, My specialty store that only carried Natura and Champion products is keeping his customers abreast of this info as he has totally gotten rid of all Natura products, he hasn't found a co. that met his needs as far as his standards and that is why he is really trying to get the grain inclusive line.
 

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2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....

1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.

2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?


I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them.

I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.
 

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I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.
Corn (like wheat) is fairly "empty" for dogs and causes allergies in quite a few dogs. (I think it's become pretty obvious that our dog has some skin allergies caused by these grains, as eliminating them has almost entirely eliminated the "hot spots" on her underside.) If there are no allergies in a dog, at most these are calories that don't provide much nutrition, but likely not harmful.

The problem with articles by vets extolling the virtues of grains for dogs is that too many vets have been compromised (dare I say "corrupted"?) by being in bed with Big Pet Food. (Why else would so many vets sell Hills and that sort of thing?) So I have to take their words with a grain (no pun intended) of salt. Or several.

I would tend to agree with the "dogs only need meat" position, but I would also add that a mostly meat diet with some carbs from non-grain sources like fruits and vegetables isn't harmful. And for most people who can't or won't feed raw, since you can't get 100% meat in a convenient dry kibble, some carbs from plant matter are inevitable.
 

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Orijen already has a grain inclusive line in Canada and apparantly else where but not in the U.S, My specialty store that only carried Natura and Champion products is keeping his customers abreast of this info as he has totally gotten rid of all Natura products, he hasn't found a co. that met his needs as far as his standards and that is why he is really trying to get the grain inclusive line.
i assume you are talking about the Acana grain inclusive line? champion makes nothing in any markets that is grain inclusive under the orijen name.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
My dog did very well on the Fromm 4 Star varieties, and like others have said, I like the company's philosophies and practices.

I'm really wavering in the grain-free issue, too, and thought about going back to these foods as I took TOTW out of the line-up. I chose Acana grain-free based a lot on opinions here.
I really like Acana, but boy, is it a pain in the butt to get where I'm going to be living lol. That and the cost concerns me. I'm not the one paying for it, my mother is, and her dog (boxer) eats TOTW, so I feel kinda crappy giving my dogs a higher quality kibble on her dime.
 

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I have fed 4-health dog food from tractor supply. it has grain, but no corn, wheat or soy. my dogs do okay on it. although it is VERY similar to the diamond naturals line of dog foods, my dogs did better on diamond naturals.

also chicken soup is a decent grain inclusive dog food. and blue buffalo.

i have not used chicken soup or blue buffalo, but they do look like something i would feed. (but not with blue buffalos price tag!) i feel like paying that price for blue buffalo that has a quite a bit a grains in it is a bit silly.

right now we are in a tight spot and that is the only reason my guys are on grain inclusive kibble.
 

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2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....

1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.

2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?


I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them.

I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.
It is a big controversy, and I think some dogs do well on one type of diet where another may not at all. I say feed whatever works for your dog best. Trial and error and you eventualy learn what works, and what dosn't.
 

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Grains are typically not as bioavailable to a dog as potato starch which is found in grain free foods. It's harder for dogs to break grains down and get little nutrition from them. They are commonly irritants to the bowel and cause allergies in dogs. They are a cheap filler for dog foods. Although potatoes are not much more nutritionally available to dogs, they are a "higher quality" ingredient.

A lot of dogs don't do well on grain free foods because they are simply getting to much to eat. Portion control on grain free foods needs to happen because people don't think about feeding their dog half of what they normally get on grain free. Intolerance to grain free foods is also a possibility but that can go for any food available and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what the dog is having a reaction to.

As far as the "dogs need meat and nothing but" arguement, it is true that dogs CAN survive on a carb ridden diet, but who's to say that is ideal? Dogs can also survive on a carb exclusive diet, but who's to say that's ideal either? It's all perception and opinion when it comes down this arguement. I just look at the visual proof that I see when feeding a grain exclusive diet compared to how my dogs were on a grain inclusive diet. That is proof enough for me.
 
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