Well, science shows us that dogs and wolves are in the same family, they are both carnivores by classification. Dogs have vertically hinged jaw, which means it cannot move side to side as we and pigs, and other omnivores can, it moves straight up and down in a scissor motion, there is no scientific evidence showing that those teeth are supposed to be used in a plant cutting manner, which... They really can't, furthermore, canis lupus is the gray wolf, canis lupus familiaris, is the modern dog. They are classified under the same name because of their near identical DNA, if you look to nature and see what a wolf eats you will see what it's nearest relative will thrive on.

There have been as many studies on a vegan diet as there have been on a raw diet for dogs... None.You would be feeding your dog vegan by word of mouth and faith, but with less evidence of it being their true ancestral diet.

 

I really like the before and after Photos of your dogs and they seemed to be healthy enough with those foods. You seemed to be quiet caring for them as i could see a lot of dog food stuffs in your kitchen and you really have a passion to cook for them.

 

The Smithsonian classifies dogs as carnivores. The structure of their jaw, the lack of chewing molars or side-to-side jaw motion, their short digestive tracts, their lack of enzymes to digest plant material, their high stomach acid pH to dissolve bones - none of that says they are meant to eat plant matter. In fact, just the opposite.

People are omnivores and if vegan they have to find a supplement to fulfill some of the requirements we have for B vitamins that are only found in red meat. We have molars, we have long digestive tracts for processing starches, we have a lower stomach pH.

Dogs are not people and people are not dogs. We need to recognize the difference. Probably with great effort and extreme measures, one could get a dog to survive on a diet that's totally unnatural for them.

 

Even if you believe that dogs are omnivores, it doesn't mean that they are vegan. The reason dogs can survive on vegetarian commercial food is because its heavily supplemented and processed. If you watch any of the videos on youtube of people making homemade vegan dog food, they need to cook, puree, mash the ingredients (in order to break down the plant cell wall), then add a ton of supplements to "balance" it. Which just underlines the point.. if they can't process it in raw form, is it really appropriate for them to be eating it in the first place? give your dog some corn on the cob and next time he goes to the bathroom, you'll get your answer.

 

Agree with the posts above.

Besides that, just watching the video also underscores how truly "un-natural" everything is that she had laid out: pretty much all processed stuff (except the carrot and potato.) I mean, salty canned "braised tofu" to get them interested in the new food? Yikes...

And WAY too complicated. I...just don't get it.

 

We've spent hundreds of hours over the last 2 years researching online forums/reviews in search of the perfect diet for our Silky Terriers. Started out with kibble, then upgraded to ZiwiPeak, then switched to K9 Natural.

Now we are finding more and more data supporting the fact that dogs are actually Omnivores and can thrive amazingly well on a strict Vegan diet. This does however contradict most of what I read here in these forums, where almost everyone claims dogs are Carnivores and need meat to survive. Knowing full well that many also claim the same for humans, which is not true at all. So I would like to get some feedback and/or hardcore scientific facts and data, as opposed to personal opinions if possible.

"Vegan" is a human concept that does not apply to dogs at all. If someone wants a "vegan" pet they should consider ruminant like a goat or a cow, not a dog or a cat.

 

Isn't she the one who says cats should eat a vegan diet too? Hasn't this been done to death on Facebook already?
What worries me is that you want hardcore scientific facts and data that dog's need meat to survive, but on the other hand you aren't providing any hardcore scientific facts and data that cats and dogs can thrive on a vegan diet.
Why are you contemplating a vegan diet, is your friend influencing you or did your dogs not do well on Ziwipeak or K9 Naturals?

 

Put a bowl of meat and a bowl of veggies in front of a dog. Guess which one the dog will choose? Dogs are primarily carnivores, and only obligate herbivores. They'll eat veggies/grains if that's the only choice.

 

Oh god, don't do that with mine he would make you think he's a rabbit...:wacko:

 

Though I suppose technically a dog can be a vegan/vegetarian I don't think I would recommend it. Personally I don't think it's natural to feed a dog like that (but what many people feed isn't natural either), I think dogs should eat what their ancestors ate: raw meat or at least a high meat diet.
(And just to make sure people don't think all vegans are insane I myself am vegan; well almost I eat honey)

 

To me, people like you are the people I most respect in raw feeding. Those who gag at the sight of raw meat at first, who can't stand to look at chicken quarters, etc. etc. - and yet will get past all that for their dogs because they accept their dogs are not humans and have their own nutritional needs. True love

 

Dogs are carnivores, period. As some of the posts above mentioned, dogs and wolves are in the same family. So closely related they share I think 99% of the same DNA. I have yet to hear of wolves raiding peoples gardens. But their goat and cattle herds could be in trouble, if you know what I mean.

I believe, and this is JMO, but anyone who intentionaly feeds their dog or cat a vegan only diet should be cited for animal cruelty. Talk about starving them of nutrients to death slowly. :tsk: Small OR large dogs. It makes no difference.

 

While dogs are not obligated carnivores like cats, they are carnivores. It is possible for a dog to survive and (maybe) even thrive on a vegan diet BUT extreme care would have to be taken that all the essential nutrients, aminos, minerals, etc are being supplied in the correct amounts. Personally, I think feeding this way long term would be very difficult, need a lot of research/knowledge, and (imo) extensive bloodwork, etc to make sure that all is well. Being biologically carnivores, dogs are much more capable of extracting the nutrients they need from meat sources, with the minor ability of being able to at least somewhat digest plant matter when neccessary for survival but I doubt a dog would last very long on this type of diet without a lot of support.

 

I think "survive" maybe, but thrive not at all. It would just be lacking too many nutrients.

 

I agree, a diet with no meat is simply too unnatural and (IMO) shouldn't even be considered to be given to any carnivore.

 

If enough "work" (research and indepth knowledge of ALL the nutrients, amino acids, minerals, etc) is put into the diet then I can see where a dog could thrive on a vegan diet. Unnatural as this diet is, I would think that a lot of supplements would be needed to "guarantee" the dog is receiving adequate nutrition.

 

If the diet is truly correct and balanced for the species, supplements aren't needed to give nutrition. If that's the case, that's not thriving.

 

That's the crazy raw fruitarian girl! LOL. Cute Italian greyhound though.

Dogs are carnivores and to feed them plant material only is wrong. Personally I think if you own a pet you should do the best you can for them, whether that be a good kibble, raw or cooked. Intentionally feeding an animal opposite of what it is supposed to eat is pretty wrong IMO.

Esp for an IG who have terrible teeth to begin with!!

 

I was raised eating meat, but I went vegetarian and then vegan. I researched for a full year before I got my dog what they are meant to eat. I'm not going to force my opinion on an animal who I think if she had the choice; would choose organs and bone over a salad and tempeh anyday
True vegans do what's right for their animals.

 

Wonder when 420 will turn up.

 

Sorry guys. The email notifications in this forum are not advising me that there are replies, even though I have my settings correct to receive them.

Thank you for all the feedback everyone, we are truly grateful.

I am Vegan and do feed my dogs K9 Natural raw meat after 2 years of research, even though the sight and smell makes me sick to my stomach every time. I love my dogs with all of my heart and will do whatever it takes to get through this.

Please see these threads for my continued analysis so far.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/8766-artemis-innova-karma-why.html
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/18762-silky-terrier-food-allergies-ziwipeak.html

I wouldn't even be going this route, if the K9 Natural wasn't making them scratch and bite their tails just like ZiwiPeak did.

After 2 long years of back and forth with everything and everyone, I'm at my wit's end at this point. No idea what to do.

Everything is turning into GMO poison, large chemical companies are taking over all of the good dog food companies and changing the ingredients and not the labels.

The meat here in America is all tainted with GMO, antibiotics, growth hormones and other toxins and everyone wonders why their dogs are getting sick.

One thing I wanted to add is the story my pet food store (Pets Plus) clerk told me, which added some light to the subject however did not fix it. She claims that small dogs do not have the same digestive system as large breed dogs do, making them different than large dogs who are closer to their original ancestors DNA. She says that feeding raw meat to small breed dogs sometimes causes Pancreatis by giving their system too much high protein. When this is done, the protein exits the anus still smelling like protein, because all of it does not get digested. So basically it's like smearing some raw dog food on their butt and they will immediately begin licking it. Then the area gets licked too much and scabs, then defecation touches it and it becomes infected. Then we have internal infections on top of everything else that need to be treated with heavy antibiotics.

Wish there was a simple test and/or answer to all of this. Someone please help.

 

One thing I wanted to add is the story my pet food store (Pets Plus) clerk told me, which added some light to the subject however did not fix it. She claims that small dogs do not have the same digestive system as large breed dogs do, making them different than large dogs who are closer to their original ancestors DNA. She says that feeding raw meat to small breed dogs sometimes causes Pancreatis by giving their system too much high protein. When this is done, the protein exits the anus still smelling like protein, because all of it does not get digested. So basically it's like smearing some raw dog food on their butt and they will immediately begin licking it. Then the area gets licked too much and scabs, then defecation touches it and it becomes infected. Then we have internal infections on top of everything else that need to be treated with heavy antibiotics.

ROFL, oh, my, that's....that's just so wrong. A dog's DNA doesn't change with size. Imo, small dogs seem to get more pancreatitis because of being fed too many fatty, rich extras that they aren't accustom to or just way too much (reason why so many develop it during the holidays). If a dog has smelly discharge "from" the anus, I wouldn't look at the food til after the pup's been to a vet. Most dog owners have "come in contact with" the anal glands which is much more likely to leak (and near the anus to boot) and has a rather nasty odor. There's so much misinformation that its just wow. Sorry, getting off the soap box now.

 

One thing I wanted to add is the story my pet food store (Pets Plus) clerk told me, which added some light to the subject however did not fix it. She claims that small dogs do not have the same digestive system as large breed dogs do, making them different than large dogs who are closer to their original ancestors DNA. She says that feeding raw meat to small breed dogs sometimes causes Pancreatis by giving their system too much high protein. When this is done, the protein exits the anus still smelling like protein, because all of it does not get digested. So basically it's like smearing some raw dog food on their butt and they will immediately begin licking it. Then the area gets licked too much and scabs, then defecation touches it and it becomes infected. Then we have internal infections on top of everything else that need to be treated with heavy antibiotics.

I'm sorry, but thats the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Pancreatitis is caused by excess fat, not protein. When dogs lick their butts, its usually an indication of filled up anal glands that need to be expressed or are already impacted (they have a distinct fishy/metallic smell). Dogs digestive system is identical regarless of the breed, I think the reason small dogs are prone to pancreatitis is because pet owners tend to spoil them with people food and due to their size, it only takes a small amount to set off an acute attack.

 

Agree wit your opinion.

I have to add that I own a three year old toy poodle and he gets meals of raw and some meals kibble mixed wit cooked meat and vegetables

I never had an issue wit digestive problems or pancreatitis the vet were I go supports natural food for dogs mostly fresh meat, she has also has a degree of exotic animals and treats some animals in a zoo here in my city, she says dogs of any size NEED fresh meat and small dogs need a diet like their wolf ancestors and poor vegetable based diets cause several problems in all dogs of any size mostly kibbles filled wit grains she despite them

She is impressed wit my Pompadour and says he is healthy and well cared, more healthy than many dogs she has seen

 

I've heard starchy foods can aggravate allergies. If so, I would highly recommend a completely meat diet with no grain, veggies or fruits.
Atleast 90% of dogs these days have allergies and the ingredients in complex diets/kibbles don't help the allergies. at. all. I spent thousands of dollars switching being ALL brands of kibbles on my pug. The best results so far is Emma being on a prey model raw diet. And she hasn't even been on this diet for 2 months!

I am seeing the same results in myself. Stop eating processed foods and you'll see a whole new you. My hair/skin is less greasy. I have reduced facial acne. Even my environmental allergies are less severe this year. Cleaner teeth, fresher breath.

 

When anal glands are full, a dog will normally rub its butt along the floor. I've never seen a dog licking due to full anal glands.

And that things about the digestive tract being different is about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's smaller, like the dog. It's not different.

 

And I agree about the food. I am afraid to eat anything. Sometimes I wish I didn't read so much about it. I wish I could just live on air. Can't drink the water, either.

 

Remember, only certain types of air...because of that pollution.

 

One thing I wanted to add is the story my pet food store (Pets Plus) clerk told me, which added some light to the subject however did not fix it. She claims that small dogs do not have the same digestive system as large breed dogs do, making them different than large dogs who are closer to their original ancestors DNA. She says that feeding raw meat to small breed dogs sometimes causes Pancreatis by giving their system too much high protein. When this is done, the protein exits the anus still smelling like protein, because all of it does not get digested. So basically it's like smearing some raw dog food on their butt and they will immediately begin licking it. Then the area gets licked too much and scabs, then defecation touches it and it becomes infected. Then we have internal infections on top of everything else that need to be treated with heavy antibiotics.

Wish there was a simple test and/or answer to all of this. Someone please help.

That quite litterly made me LOL, so hard it awoke my dogs!
Dont want to come off as rude-but never, ever take a clerk from a pet store seriously, whils a minimum wage jobe a small few may know a thing or two- the majority of them dont know crap.Its a minimum wage job-the person fills out an application, (can you lift heavy bags of food? yes, do you have good people skills? yes-your hired!) they get hried and are told "sell this food"
so they do-people come in asking questions and they get told whatever to buy the food and make a sale.

as far as "small dogs getting pancreatis due to raw meat" my sisters toy poodle was fed raw meat for a good long time while staying ehre with me without issues.
the problem is that what may seem like a small amount of fat to us-can be a HUGE amount to a small dogs body, so we may look at a half teaspoon of fat and think 'thats a tiny amount" but to a dog whos stomachi s no bigger then a tablespoon-thats alot!

and if the dog is licking its butt that much-there somthing wrong there, most likly some sort of an infection or irritation, or maybe the dog simply loves to eat its own feces straight from the sorce!
Either way-itll not be the raw meat that does it, i hear more often of kibble fed dogs consuming their own wastes due to the sugars-quite a few freinds of mine never had ppop eaters-till they switched back to kibble or gave a cheap-o dog buscuits over a period of time.

Anyways, due to there NOT being research done on raw/vegan dog diets-the thing you really need to do is begin researching the anatomy and eating habits of dogs yourself-the way i know many of us did before/after we started our own dogs on raw diets.

and if i were you-i would talk to more vegan feeders to find out the dogs diet-how many of them feed any vegan diet over the coarse of a few years that is 100% unprocessed? (whole fruits and veggies uncooked and without addatives)

take a few months of doing that, while at the same time count up how many raw feeders are feeding 100% unprocessed diets without addatives.

Nature is NEVER wrong-if nature were wrong, even once- we would not exist.

 

I can't help but notice that she says that she has only had dogs for a couple of months in the video. Someone who has only had dogs for a couple of months isn't someone I would be taking feeding advice from. This video also shows two dogs who have only been on a vegan diet for a couple of months. Because not enough time has gone by, we don't know how this diet will effect them in the long run. How will they look/feel three or four years down the road?

I have never seen anything about any of my dogs that makes me feel that they are designed to eat plants. They do not have hinged jaws so they cannot move their jaw from side to side to grind plant material. And, I don't know what kind of dogs vegan feeders have but the dogs I have had (Labrador Retriever, 2 Dobermans, Rottweiler, Dalmatian, Brittany, Smooth Collie, Bluetick Coonhound, Standard Xoloitzcuintli) do not have flat molars. When my dogs snack on the fresh, sweet, spring grass, it comes out completely undigested. When I give them a piece of carrot, there are orange carrot chunks in their poop. If it isn't meat, it comes out looking like it did going in.

My Xolo is a great example of what nature intended for dogs. Xolos have been around for 3000+ years and, for a lot of that time, were feral dogs. There are still feral Xolos in the remote places of Mexico. Dogs, themselves, are not natural. Man made them but the Xolo is an example of dogs going back to nature. Over time, they have become a dog that (in the coated variety) looks like your typical mutt. They have almost shepherd like faces, compact, athletic bodies, etc. The hairless variety is the same minus the fur, obviously. They survived on their own for a long time. However, they still have the same teeth as a wolf and are excellent hunters. An acquaintance of mine has a Xolo who, during a show, launched itself into the air and caught a bird that flew too low. Xolos are known to excel at hunting small animals. If dogs were meant to be vegan, a dog who had very little contact simply wouldn't have those hunting skills or the teeth to bring down prey. It would be like expecting a sheep to stalk and kill a rabbit.

 

After 2 years of back and forth to the vets with both dogs and thousands of dollars later, we finally solved the mystery.

They both have the same environmental allergies and by giving them each a half a Benedryl in their food, the problem is gone!

 

How are you certain that it's environmental allergies and not a food allergy? Or perhaps even both?

I wouldn't want to dose my pets with benadryl everyday for the rest of their lives. I end up feeling like garbage even after taking one benadryl during high allergy season.. I cant imagine what it must be like to get dosed every day. I would say that the problem is not gone, it's simply being covered up rather than being fixed. I strongly urge you to take another look at what might be causing the allergies, and maybe look into more natural remedies for it.

 

Being an anti pharma guy, I agree with you 420% and will get them both tested for allergies and report back here when done.

Thanks.

 

That's fantastic. I understand you've already gone through a lot of trouble trying to figure out the underlying cause of the itchiness, and I applaud you for putting the welfare of your dogs first.

Also, lol'd at 420%. :tongue: