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Raw Food Newbie... PLEASE critique

8.2K views 38 replies 13 participants last post by  WitterKT  
#1 · (Edited)
Hello,

I just (okay, well he'll be 6 months in a few days) got a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff) boy from a breeder in Fallbrook, CA. He had been feeding him raw, but his guidelines were are little vague. I have continued the practice, but I feel like I'm doing it wrong. Here's his evening meal:

~ 1 lb of 80/20 ground beef
1-3 whole eggs
~ 1 cup plain yogurt or 1 cup cottage cheese with 1/2 cup goat's milk
~ 1 cup fruit vegetable slurry (blend up random veggies and fruits in a blender for easy mixing)
~ 6000 mg fish oil
1 Tbsp Morinda Care Noni Supplement
2 Cups Solid Gold Wolf Cub

I seem to be missing bones and organs from what I've read so far, but I'm a little lost. His poop is super runny and is not characteristic of what everyone is raving about here. Please help.

He's about 70 lbs. and seems to be growing about 2 lbs. per week or so.



Kyle

PS - Morning meal is just how ever much Solid Gold Wolf Cub he'll eat, usually about 1-1.5 cups.
 
#2 · (Edited)
If his poops are runny, definitely add more bone.

Was the puppy on raw the entire time? Did the breeder feed him raw from the start once he was eating on his own, (meaning, not from mama)?

You could try feeding chicken with bone for a bit to see if that settles his stomach and firms up the poo.

I'm fairly new to raw feeding myself and while I am getting pretty good at what to do, I don't want to steal the limelight from those who have been doing it for a long time and have the answers so I'll let them chime in with the rest.

I will add that I don't feed yogurt, cottage cheese or any type of milk. I feed only raw meat, organs, (well, eventually), and bone.

Edit: And by the way, welcome to the forum.
 
#3 ·
Hello,

I just (okay, well he'll be 6 months in a few days) got a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff) boy from a breeder in Fallbrook, CA. He had been feeding him raw, but his guidelines were are little vague. I have continued the practice, but I feel like I'm doing it wrong. Here's his evening meal:

~ 1 lb of 80/20 ground beef
1-3 whole eggs
~ 1 cup plain yogurt or 1 cup cottage cheese with 1/2 cup goat's milk
~ 1 cup fruit vegetable slurry (blend up random veggies and fruits in a blender for easy mixing)
~ 6000 mg fish oil
1 Tbsp Morinda Care Noni Supplement
2 Cups Solid Gold Wolf Cub

I seem to be missing bones and organs from what I've read so far, but I'm a little lost. His poop is super runny and is not characteristic of what everyone is raving about here. Please help.

He's about 70 lbs. and seems to be growing about 2 lbs. per week or so.

Kyle

PS - Morning meal is just how ever much Solid Gold Wolf Cub he'll eat, usually about 1-1.5 cups.
Hi Kyle,
His poops would be runny with this diet. There's no bone. I wonder why. I wonder why too that they recommend feeding raw with kibble? I've read it's not good to mix the two within 12 hours of each other as they digest at different rates. Is there 12 or more hours between am and pm meals? Are you feeding the kibble because the breeder did?

Also wolf cub has grains in it - brown rice, millet, barley, and rice brain. And flaxseed. That is the dog food I fed my youngest puppy before we switched to EVO and then next to raw. Dogs don't have the ability to digest grains. The best proof of this is with my youngest pup. He's lacks the enzymes to digest food. I give him enzymes twice daily. The most highly recommended diet for his condition is raw, not BARF (which contains grains, vegs, and fruits in addition to raw meat and bones). In addition dogs with this condition cannot digest huge amounts of bone. The enzymes are the same ones all dogs have and they digest fat and protein.

The fruit/veg slurry is optional. It depends on what raw diet you choose. BARF uses fruit/vegs. You need to cook and blend it because dogs have no way to digest the cell structure.

Supplements are not necessary on the RMB diet.

Seems like an awful lot of eggs as well. Hm... just wonder why the amount is so high.

The diary is fine on BARF as well but not necessary on RMB. However, I occasionally feed my pups 1/2 cup yogurt every third day or so.

I do give salmon oil capsules once a day too.

Personally, I don't like to feed any ground meat to my puppies. I'd rather feed as whole as possible. I follow the RMB diet. The BARF diet uses ground meat as a major portion of the diet. Usually in BARF, the meat is ground with bones of an unknown quantity of up to 30 to 50%. Bone content is ideal around 10% - RMB follows this guideline.

If you read the many sticky posts you'll get a better idea of how to balance your puppy's diet. Daily bone, such as a chicken hindquarter, for one meal is usually the easiest way to get adequate bone content.

Also recommended read is RawFedDogs website:

Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB
It's simple and easy to follow.

Have fun!
 
#4 ·
Hello,

I just (okay, well he'll be 6 months in a few days) got a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff) boy from a breeder in Fallbrook, CA. He had been feeding him raw, but his guidelines were are little vague. I have continued the practice, but I feel like I'm doing it wrong. Here's his evening meal:

~ 1 lb of 80/20 ground beef
1-3 whole eggs
~ 1 cup plain yogurt or 1 cup cottage cheese with 1/2 cup goat's milk
~ 1 cup fruit vegetable slurry (blend up random veggies and fruits in a blender for easy mixing)
~ 6000 mg fish oil
1 Tbsp Morinda Care Noni Supplement
2 Cups Solid Gold Wolf Cub

I seem to be missing bones and organs from what I've read so far, but I'm a little lost. His poop is super runny and is not characteristic of what everyone is raving about here. Please help.

He's about 70 lbs. and seems to be growing about 2 lbs. per week or so.
Welcome to the board. What you are feeding is many times better than feeding kibble only. We can change up his diet a little and make it even better and healthier.

I'm not surprised he has the runs. Most of us here feed what is known as a prey model raw diet. I have feed this diet for over 8 years to 2 Great Danes.

One to three eggs a week is plenty. The veggie mush is very unnecessary. Dogs are carnivores and as such have no need for plant matter in their diet. I don't use fish oil but that sounds like an awful lot. Others who use fish oil can chime and and tell us about the amount. I feed fish instead of just the oil. The supplement is unnecessary if you are feeding meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

The Solid Gold stuff is entirely unnecessary. It adds nothing to the diet and actually makes it worse.

Feeding bones and organs will make up for not feeding veggies and other supplements.

I suggest feeding nothing but chicken backs or quarters until he has good solid stools for a few days. Then you can gradually add in other protein sources such as turkey, pork, beef, fish, etc until he has a well rounded diet. The bones in the backs and quarters will make the stools solid pretty quickly.

You have a lot to learn about feeding a prey model raw diet so check out my web page linked in my sig. After you have read it, come back and ask questions because you will have them. We can have this big boy fixed up in no time. :smile:
 
#6 ·
=~ 1 lb of 80/20 ground beef
1-3 whole eggs
~ 1 cup plain yogurt or 1 cup cottage cheese with 1/2 cup goat's milk
~ 1 cup fruit vegetable slurry (blend up random veggies and fruits in a blender for easy mixing)
~ 6000 mg fish oil
1 Tbsp Morinda Care Noni Supplement
2 Cups Solid Gold Wolf Cub

PS - Morning meal is just how ever much Solid Gold Wolf Cub he'll eat, usually about 1-1.5 cups.
To me it looks like the breeder is trying to avoid overdoing calcium in the kibble by adding a lot of perfectly good fresh foods. He is getting maybe 1000 calories a day of kibble with its 'balanced' nutrition and it contains almost all of the calcium you are giving. The little dairy you give may have some calcium in it too but probably less than 10% of your pup's needs. The ground meat is high fat which is making up for the low fat in the kibble. The veggie slop ought to help with the loose stool, not doing the job apparently. Fish oil is good stuff too but that is a lot, it could cause loose stool as well.

Is this really what the breeder fed the pups? What were his stools like at the breeder's house? Could it be he is simply eating more now?

Anyway, welcome and I completely agree with the other posters. Toss the kibble, noni stuff, dairy and veggie slop and save the eggs and ground beef for when his stool is nice and firm on bony chicken.
 
#7 ·
Just wanted to say hi and welcome. :smile:

You have been given some great advice so far. Read the two links provided as they are very helpful and I refer to them both often. I think that you will find after doing some research that if you go to a Prey Model Raw diet things will be much easier and less complicated. :smile:
 
#8 ·
Hello & Welcome! It doesn't sound like your dog is getting near enough calcium. The others above have given you awesome suggestions. That is quite a bit of Fish Oil. From what I have read the recommended dose is 1000mg per 30# for a normal dog, 1000mg per 10# for a sick dog.
 
#10 ·
Lots of good info guys. I'll start looking into the suggestions. I do still have a couple of questions as I begin my research, though.

1) Do I just give the bones to him whole? I don't recall ever having seen ground bones or anything at the market. Are all kinds of raw bones okay (beef, chicken, turkey, pork, fish, etc.)?

2) Is there any point to feed him a kibble meal (i.e. Evo as one person had used) and one raw, or shall I feed him both meals raw? How much faw food should he get based on his weight? If I used one I'd research a grain-free (I really thought solid gold was; it's what the breeder recommended)

3) Are those noni/antioxidant supplements really just extra and unnecessary with this diet? I was explained by someone that antioxidants prevent the body from percieving joint imflammation as a bad thing in the body and hence prevent the body from attacking itself. I was further told that gluscosamine supplements are more corrective type supplements; they should be used after the diagnosis of damaged joints.

I'll get to reseaching... I really appreciate your help guys. My little guy is longing for a solid poo, and I think he'll get it in a few days :).

Kyle
 
#11 ·
@ SassyMaxMom - It's really hard to say what the breeder fed him. He was talking about the ratio of protein and fat and that solid gold held that ratio pretty well. He said that he tried to feed the dogs this way, as that's what he saw when he went to Italy to see the Corso's in their homeland.

I'm not gonna lie, I added in the veggie/fruit thing, the fish oil, and the noni on my own accord. I'll have to do more research; I really thought I was helping :/.

I took a look at the fish oil requirement. At 1g/30#, he'll be getting 3 pills per day. I'll probably pick up a jar of vitamin E to help with the absorbtion that I've read is necessary for dogs? So he'll get 3 Fish/1 E each day...

Still looking at the references...

Thanks guys!
 
#12 ·
Danemama08, RawFedDogs, and 3RingCircus, I read the links you posted. Thank you very much, they were very helpful in clarifying how to attack this issue.

I is a bit odd to me that the dogs wouldn't need any additional vitamins that are outside of the meat, bones, and organs, but I'm not an expert on the subject. I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it, huh?

I am still a bit confused on the portioning. From my breeder's perspective, Valentino's ideal adult weight is 130 lbs. 2-3% of that would be 2.5-4 lbs. of raw food per day. Is this what I start him at while he's a 70 lb. pup or do I feed him less? Will this be close to the upper threshold of what he eats, or will he potentially eat 5-8 lbs. of food per day as a full grown dog?
 
#15 ·
Okay... Well we fed him chicken thighs tonight as that was readily available at the supermarket down the road. He ate about 3 lbs. of it in a matter of minutes. This is a HUGE relief, as we had to coax him to eat his food in the past. Don't worry, I did read that bit on tough love that we will be applying to his feeding practices. I will not spend another 30 minute session trying to convince my picky boy to eat :p.
 
#16 ·
Be very careful. It's 3 lbs a day he should start off with, not per meal. Over feeding is one of the biggest causes of digestive problems when beginning raw feeding. It's better to under feed the first few weeks than to over feed. He is going to eat a raw diet the rest of his life. Taking things slowly in the first couple of months won't hurt him and will make life easier for all of you.
 
#18 ·
If this helps %

My Bulldog pup is 9 months old. He is getting 2.5% a day of his CURRENT weight. 2% just wasn't enough for him and I found that out within a week. IMO full weight doesn't "weigh in" here because your pup isn't underweight or sickly right? Ideal weight would be more towards goal weight what you want him to weigh currently. I would go with the 2.5% for starters. At 60 lbs that would be 1.5 lbs a day like Natalie said. 60 x 0.025 = 1.5 lbs and 1.5 x 16(oz) = 24 oz and 24 oz / 2 = 12 oz per meal 2 times a day.

Hugs to your boy
 
#19 ·
the benefit of feeding raw is the immediate results. much of what you're going to do over the next six months is tried and true, along with trial and error.

welcome to the forum and believe me, if anyone can get you through the initial transition, this forum will.

the beauty of a raw fed diet with raw meaty bones as a prey model or frankenprey....is the sheer simplicity of it all.....it's actually pretty simple....humans like me muck it up and complicate it.....and overthink...

:)
 
#20 · (Edited)
Awesome!

So I think that I'll immediately cut down u to 2 lbs/day for simplicity. That will be a chicken rear quarter per meal, basically. Then after a week or so I'll add in a small portion of organ (probably liver) along with the meal, right? Start out by adding organ once a week and maybe bump it up two twice a week after a few months, right?

After that, then I'll slowly ramp it up by adding a thigh or so until we eventually get to 3-4 lbs./day. After that I'll start to trade parts of the chicken meals with other types of raw meat mentioned here.
 
#21 ·
Typically I don't suggest adding in organs after about 2 months of feeding raw. Add in other protein sources in first and add in organs last. I really suggest you read and follow the guideline below. You can take it however fast as you want meaning that you speed things up but in the long run there really is no need to. The slower you take the transition the better results you'll see overall (less digestive upset). Although puppies typically transition much faster and the fact that he's been on raw of one form will help speed things up. Hope this helps and good luck!

Commit To Change
Make the switch, cold turkey, no pun intended! You do not want to start off your dog on raw feeding while still eating kibble. The two do not mix well together because it “confuses” the body about what it’s digesting. Feeding raw and kibble at the same time causes digestive upset and it is not recommended. If you do not want to throw away the kibble you have left, either donate it to a local animal rescue organization, they probably need it more than you do, or finish it.
Make the decision to switch and stick to it. This is a gradual process that takes patience sometimes, so keep that in mind. Remember that you are doing this because it IS the best thing that you could ever do for your canine companions.
Prepare yourself.
You will need to get the appropriate supplies needed to make feeding raw as hassle free as possible. Depending on how many dogs you are switching to raw, the amount of supplies will vary greatly. We have 4 giant dogs that all eat raw, so we definitely need more room than say a person with just one Chihuahua to feed.
I recommend getting at least one small dedicated freezer even if only feeding one dog. This way you can keep stock on a bunch of different types of meat at any given point in time. Some people do just fine using the space in the freezer they use for their food, but when getting into raw feeding you will find yourself continually looking for new sources of meats. Its best to always be able to take meat on a whim, and have space to store it. For example, lets say you come across someone on craigslist that is wanting to get rid of some elk meat, but they have 20 pounds of it. You should be able to take it all off their hands and repackage it into meals to last a long time so that you are not feeding anything but elk for 2 weeks straight. Keep in mind that you will also have a stash of chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, etc that needs to take up space as well!
Chest and standup freezers are both available on craigslist on a regular basis, and usually if you look hard enough you can find some really good deals.
You need to think, and prepare how you are going to store the meat in the freezer. Some people package meat into individual meals or into packages that are several days worth of food. Looking at containers is a good thing so you can plan out how many will fit in your freezer, etc. I prefer using containers that hold 2 days worth of food for our 4 dogs because they are reusable and more economical. I know others that use freezer bags as well.
Getting a scale is also a tool that you might want around in the beginning. A scale is used to measure out the amounts of meat per meal or per day.
Most importantly, set up connections with other raw feeders out there. Join forums, become active on them and gain the friendship and trust of the people who can offer you their advice and experience. Trust me, these connections are just as valuable as the health aspect is to your dog. These people will help you through all the steps of they way, tell you when you should relax or panic in a situation, in essence they will try and keep you sane through the process.
Do some research. Find raw feeding groups on groups.yahoo.com that are applicable to breed or location, there are plenty to choose from. Find a yahoo coop group and join it to get good deals on group buys and such. Find a wholesale meat distributor and set up a relationship with them, ask them if they have a program for raw feeders that they can get you signed up on (what we use for most of our meats).
You can find a list of resources on this website to make it even easier for you!
Doing a bit of Math
The feeding guideline is between 2-3% of the adult dog’s ideal body weight per day (keep in mind that this is for IDEAL weight…and that your dog might need to lose or gain some weight so adjust the amount accordingly!). For example, if a dog weighs 60 pounds, he should be getting 1.2-1.8 pounds of food per day. The 2-3% is just a guideline, and you should also take into account your dog’s energy level, age, breed, etc into account when figuring out how much to feed, which just might mean you would be giving more like 4% per day.
I will be honest here, we have never measured anything out. I find it much easier to just keep an eye on body condition, if they are looking heavy I cut back or vice versa. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with measuring different cuts of meat out in the beginning so you can get a feel on how much to feed. We know exactly how much to feed from just experience, as you will once you get the hang of it!
If starting a puppy, this takes a bit more math. Start off feeding 10% of its current weight, meaning if a puppy weighs 10 pounds, feed 1 pound per day. If this puppy is supposed to be 60 pounds full grown, its ideal amount of food per day is 1.2-1.8 pounds per day. Once the puppy reaches ~18 pounds, or the 3% amount of adult body weight, you should back the amount down the 2-3% for normal feeding. You will only be feeding 10% for a little while, which is normal. Its better to split this amount up into several smaller meals since this will be a lot of food for a little growing puppy. Remember, this is just a guideline and that every dog is different.
The suggested guideline when figuring how much to feed of what is: 10% whole, raw bones, 10% whole, raw organ meats and 80% skeletal muscle meats. This 1:1:8 ratio best represents the average amount of bone, organ and meat tissue within prey animals. The way I see it, you should be feeding some bone, some organ and mostly muscle meat. I don’t do the math to figure out how in pounds/ounces to feed of each to my dogs. I just feed things that I know are mostly meat, some bone and some organ. If you want to do the math explicitly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but you might have a hard time figuring out how much bone to meat there is in a turkey neck (which have a lot of bone in them by weight!).
What to Feed, What Not to Feed
The more the variety the better, which goes for all muscle meats, bones and organs. Feed pretty much anything you can get your hands on, but the main staples that you will find are chicken, turkey, pork, beef, and fish. There are many others out there like elk, deer, rabbit, duck, quail, bison, etc.
When it comes to organs, make sure that you feed at least liver. Liver and kidney is better. Liver, kidney, pancreas, lungs, etc is even better. Heart and gizzard are both considered muscle meats when it comes to nutrition and do not count as organ meat.
There are only a couple of precautions with types of meat. All fresh fish coming from the Pacific Northwest should be frozen for at least a few weeks to kill off a parasite that transmits a disease that is called salmon poisoning. Second, don’t feed weight bearing bones from larger ungulates, like cows, buffalo or elk. Dogs have the potential to break teeth on these bones because they are designed to carry around up to several thousand pounds and you do not want your dog to chomp down on that! Ground meats should be fed at a minimum, I would say no more than once a week. Ground meats have a tenancy to have more bacteria and don’t provide any dental benefit to your dog. Lastly, stay away from oddly shaped or cut pieces of bone, like T-bones for example. These bones are more likely to cause a blockage.
A good rule for picking out pieces of meat to feed, is that your dog should never be able to swallow anything whole without at least crunching down on it a few times to make it fit down. If your dog can swallow something whole stay away from it. The risk of choking or getting a blockage goes up if your dog can swallow it whole. For example, its not recommended to feed chicken necks or drumsticks to large breed dogs because they tend to swallow them whole. Chewing through bones is one of the biggest benefits from a raw diet, so you might as well make them chew their food! Keep in mind that dogs don’t chew their food like we do, they don’t need to. They just have to make it small enough to fit down the hatch, so don’t panic if you see your dog crunch a chicken quarter 3 or 4 times and then swallow it.
This site is called Prey Model Raw because it is all about mimicking the diet that dogs would thrive on if they were still wild. It differs from the BARF diet by not including vegetables, fruit and dairy. There is the age old debate of whether wolves/dogs are true carnivores and should have plant matter included in their diet. We here at PMR don’t believe they are a necessity. Will they harm your dogs? Probably not, maybe just a bit of digestive upset. But are they necessary? Absolutely not.
Taking the Plunge
So, at this point you know what to feed, what not to feed, how much to feed, where and how you will store it, where to find good meats, have plenty of support from experienced people, set up connections with meat distributors or butchers. If so, I think you are ready to begin with the actual process!
 
#22 ·
Continued....

Weeks 1 and 2
Fasting your dog one day before giving them anything raw is highly recommended, followed by a small meal of raw the first day is best. If switching a puppy to raw, it is not necessary to fast them a whole day since this is not good for them. I would recommend giving the puppy at least 6-12 hours between their last kibble meal and their first raw meal to keep the mixing of the two down to a minimum. Too much raw food all at once can be more detrimental than good. You will want to feed nothing but one protein source during this time. The most recommended thing to go with is bone in chicken parts, because chicken cheap, easy to find and easy for a dog to digest at first. I recommend feeding chicken backs for the first 2-3 days. Chicken backs are higher in bone content which the higher the bone content the firmer the stools will be because bone is a constipating agent, too much bone can cause problems but shouldn’t be an issue in the beginning. After the 3rd day I would add in chicken quarters alternating with backs, every other meal. Chicken leg quarters have a bit more meat to them, and less bone. You don’t want your dog to become constipated on nothing but chicken backs. Continue with alternating chicken backs and quarters until you have noticed consistent firm stools for at least 7 days in a row.
Don’t Panic
Hopefully at this point you haven’t seen any digestive upset! But if you have…DON’T PANIC! Dogs that have been on kibble for a long time generally have the hardest time with the switch because their bodies are not used to such a new food. Sometimes dogs go through something that some call the “detox” stage, but to me its more just a transition that the body must undergo from digesting overly processed, species inappropriate foods to whole, fresh, raw foods. During this time, digestive enzymes must change to be able to digest this new diet, and sometimes this can take up to a few weeks. Loose stool, and occasional vomiting is seen during this time, but these usually clear up within a day or so. If not, taking your dog to the vet is a good idea.
Seeing pieces of bone in stool is normal in the beginning, you will see less and less of this as time goes on. The body is in its adjustment phase and is still getting used to breaking down bones. Digestive enzymes are changing and their ability to break down bone becomes more and more affective as time goes on. Don’t panic if you see pieces of bone in your dog’s stool. Trust me, its normal.
This “detox” stage is the reason why weeks 1 and 2 are exclusively one protein source. It poses the easiest route for the body to become adjusted to a 180 degree change in diet. If you were to undergo the same change, going from mostly processed foods to fresh, whole raw foods, your body would not be the happiest in the beginning. In the long term your body would thank you immensely for the added health! Keep up the good work and stay strong. Make sure the connections you have made with your support team are there for you all along the way.
Weeks 3 and 4
At this point your dog should be doing awesome. You will even be able to notice a change in young healthy animals even. Coats looking softer and shinier. Teeth are looking bright white and clean, no more tartar, plaque or bad breath. Digestion is under control, those of you with constant diarrhea are at ease. What to do now?
Well, at this point you have probably become very excited and immersed yourself in the “raw world” looking for any possible connection for meat and what you can get your hands on. Well, keep up the research but tread lightly. While this far you have seen nothing but improvement, you can easily overdo things too early and end back up on square one. So you must be patient with adding in new things.
I recommend adding in something like turkey next. Turkey necks or wings would work great for this. Add in turkey alternating with chicken every other meal. If you don’t notice any problems with this addition, keep up with alternating one and then the other. If you have noticed a bit of looser stool, you can add in one turkey meal to every two chicken meals until you notice things are back to normal and then try and add more turkey back in. I would keep up with just chicken and turkey for at least a week of normal stools before adding in the next protein source.
The next protein source I recommend is pork or fish, either one. A lot of dogs will not eat raw fish, so you can give canned fish instead. Canned salmon, tuna, sardines or mackerel work well, but they are expensive if you have a lot of dogs to feed (canned tuna is not bone in, the rest should be). If going with pork, I would add in pork ribs or neck bones in. Add either fish or pork in the same way you did with turkey, alternating it every other meal with chicken and turkey. For example, morning meal would be chicken, evening meal is fish, then the next day the morning meal is turkey. Continue this until you notice normal stool for a week on this type of feeding schedule. Again, if you notice loose stool, go in a bit lighter on the new protein source, until you can get it in every 3rd meal without a hitch.
As you can see, there is a trend of adding in just bone in meats in this transition. Remember that bone adds bulk to their stool, keeping them nice and firm. Monitoring bowel movements is a great way to see how a dog’s body is working and responding to the food that you are giving it. So by the end of this transition you will become a poo expert!
Weeks 5 and 6
Alright, well if you added in fish last time, add in pork and vise versa. Add them in the same techniques used before during the first couple of weeks.
Week 6 I would add in beef, which is most likely not going to be bone in. Most bone in beef sources are not okay for dogs to eat because the bones are just way too dense for their teeth to crunch through. The only bone in beef source that we feed to our dogs is beef ribs, and its more of a treat and recreational chewing than a meal.
Finding beef at a reasonable cost that isn’t ground can be a tough thing. Beef heart is what we tend to feed on a regular basis because it is considered muscle meat nutritionally, but it is very rich and its affordable. Adding beef heart is a bit trickier than anything else up to this point. Not only does it not have any bone to add bulk to stool, but its super rich. I recommend giving half the amount in weight of beef heart than you normally give. In this case, less can be better. Once your dog gets used to something so rich you can add in more.
Most likely you will see some loose stool. You can feed chicken backs a meal before and after for the added bone or in conjunction with the beef heart. Then the next day just do chicken and turkey. Feed your rotation of chicken, turkey, fish, pork and beef until you see a weeks worth of normal stool.
Weeks 7 and 8
Woohoo! You’ve made it this far, don’t stop now! Unfortunately this can be the hardest part of the whole process. This is the time when you add in organ meats. Lots of dogs refuse to eat organ meat. You might find yourself having to do a bit of prep work to the organs just to get your dog to eat them. This could mean doing a light sear with some spices or feeding it to them frozen, or the tried and true method that we use of just shoving it down their throats! Organs are an essential part of the prey model raw diet. They need them so you have to find a way to get your dogs to eat them, whatever that might be. Don’t cook them all the way through because most of the nutrition is lost during the cooking process. If you do a light sear, you want to go even lighter with each time you do this until your dogs will eat it basically raw, if not 100% raw.
Unlike before this addition is just a once a week thing. The amount you will feed will be similar to what you did with beef heart because organs are very, very rich and will cause loose stool with almost every dog out there. You can feed organs with chicken backs to help alleviate digestive upset. Each new week you feed your organ meal, feed just a bit more until you can add in a full meal of organ meat or the equivalent spread over a few days. We feed organs only once and not spread out because our dogs don’t like organs. Some people feed just a little bit of organ each day with each meal, this is fine too just as long as you keep the 1:1:8 ratio of organ, bone to meat ratio in the back of your mind.
The easiest way for me to calculate the right amount of organ meals to feed so you don’t feed to much is to count how many meals you feed per week. Lets say you feed morning and night, which is what most people do. That is a total of 14 meals per week. If you are only supposed to be feeding ~10% organs that means that only 1.5 meals should consist of organ. That can be an exclusive organ meal or spread out throughout the week. Just make sure that you are getting enough organs in. They are essential to optimum health.
 
#23 ·
So I'm in the proccess of closing on a house. I'm going to wait to stock the deep freeze until then. In the meantime, where do I find chicken backs?? I've looked at 4 local grocery chains and a butcher with no luck. I have a friend that is a "butcher" for stater brothers, but he'll only be able to get it sporadically. We're currently feeding him chicken 1/4's. So they have enough bone in them? He basically swallows chicken thighs in one gulp; I shouldn't use those, right? Is it to early for turkey necks?
 
#25 ·
In the meantime, where do I find chicken backs??
Backs can be difficult to find. Usually you have to have them special ordered by the case. Chain stores usually can't do that because they aren't equipped for special orders. I generally have good luck at small independent grocery stores. Talk to the owner or meat manager and explain that you need to order a case of chicken backs and he can just add them to his regular order. He should tell you which day you can pick them up.

We're currently feeding him chicken 1/4's. So they have enough bone in them?
If his stools are not soft or runny, they are ok.

He basically swallows chicken thighs in one gulp; I shouldn't use those, right?
Right. You want to feed him something large enough that he has to chew.

Is it to early for turkey necks?
After he's been on chicken for a couple of weeks without soft or runny stools, then you can throw turkey necks into the mix.
 
#24 ·
How are his poops on chicken quarters? If they are fine and solid with no runs then the quarters should be fine to feed. Most of these things we feed need to be ordered or really looked for especially chicken backs. I would say he needs to stay on chicken a little longer before transitioning to turkey but turkey necks could be the next source.

Alot of dogs will crunch once and swallow a piece of food, if he has really no issue with this other than that it should be fine, but you could always just keep it in the full quarter.
 
#26 ·
Hmm, well his stools are still pretty porraige-like. It sounds gross, but at the dog park I picked up his stool in a little black bag and kinda kneaded it to feel for any solid consistency. I felt a few solid (as in solid poop, not undigested bone) chunks in there, but as a whole it was still pretty runny. He seems pretty ravenous after his meal and like he's leaning out a bit. I think I'm going to up the ante from 1 chicken quarter 2x/day to 1 chicken quarter and a large thigh 2x/day. That would probably be about 3 lbs. daily.

I was afraid of the ordering issue. Well, the good news is that I found a guy that can get it for me in bulk. It was pretty funny; he is a private vendor and I saw his van in a Food 4 Less parking lot. I called the number and he was more than willing to help me. I'll have to wait to see what his prices are later...

Is there an all inclusive list that I can use to give to this guy on what I should be ordering in bulk? You know, the staples... I saw danemama08 (I think?) post some examples of what she feeds her dogs; chicken backs, turkey necks, beef hearts, pork ribs, pork roasts, whole tilapia, pollock fillets, lamb ribs, beef/chicken liver, and beef kidneys. If I ordered that and only that in bulk, then relied on whatever other random stuff I could acquire for cheap as opportunity presented itself, would I be set up quite nicely? I was planning on ordering something like 3-500 lbs. at one time to minimize the number of times per year I'd have to stock up.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Since his stools are not firm, what you want to do is up the bone to meat ratio. Since right now all you have are quarters, I would trim some of the meat off as well as all organs and skin. I would also feed LESS right now until his poops are firm and solid. Over feeding is also a sign of loose stool.

As far as ordering in bulk that sounds great if you have the room. That's awesome that you found that vendor! :smile: Keep in mind that the first several weeks you will really only be feeding chicken and turkey, and a little pork. Organs won't be until you are about 2 months in as well as the beef heat as it is very rich.

I would read this link again:
How to get started | Prey Model Raw

As well as the link in RFDs signature.
 
#28 ·
Hey Sara, thanks for the info.

I'll take another look at that. I know that I'm just going to keep reading those links until the information is second nature to me. I won't be moving into my house and subsequently stocking the freezer for another month or so at the earliest, so I'll just buy chicken and turkey until then.

I have been trimming the fat off of the meat; I guess I'll hack a little flesh off, too and just give him more servings to equal that pound. I'll keep the weight the same as you suggested until his stool starts to firm up a bit.
 
#29 ·
when transitioning any dog, less is more....and bone is the stabiliser.

the nuances and fine points come later....and you can overthink after transition..

in the beginning....your baby is healthy and needs easily digested food.....with a little more bone to firm up those stools....

if you're feeding 3 lbs per day, i'd cut back to 2 lbs per day divided into two or three meals....include more bone, cut the skin and excess fat off until you have a firm stool...

do this for about two weeks....let your baby get used to raw.

do away with the extras for now..if you feel that strongly about noni and yoghurt, add it in in a year when he's used to eating raw...although by then, you will probably research that it is not necessary...right now, stick to basics.

this is a life time commitment...don't worry about stocking up your freezer...for now, order chicken backs, turkey necks, whole chickens and turkeys...that's all you'll need for about a month....

then you'll start to move on...the slower you go, the better the odds your dog will have a proper amount of time to adjust...which includes firming up the gums, the teeth, the jaw, the neck muscles.....the digestive system...

take a deep breath.....it'll be okay. promise.
 
#30 ·
Man, that diet the breeder recommended is complicated and ineffective. I recently changed recipes and I do boneless beef for the morning and rmb's combined with some organ meat in the evening.

In addition, I rotate between mixing salmon oil in the morning meal to a whole egg with shell. Took me about a week to rationing out the ratio between meat and bone and now the poop is the way I like it, firm but not too crumbly.