Mousse
Great Dane
1 year, 7 months
4 months of Prey Model Raw feeding

 

The problem with this premise is that bloodwork does not measure the health of a dog. It does not measure how good his diet is. All it measures is how good certain organs are performing at the very instant that the blood was drawn. It can vary widely from time to time depending on what the dog just ate and when he ate it. It does not measure muscle tone, health of bones, endurance, or how well the body is functioning other than those few organs. You can't prove the worth of a diet by these blood panels. All you can prove is whether or not the liver, kidneys, and pancreas are functioning normally at that very instant that blood was drawn.

Anyway, I don't have copies of Abby's blood panel and I don't think I have ever had one run on Thor.

OK, I'll stop raining on your parade. :biggrin: Carry on. Can you tell im just not a big fan of random blood panels?

 

All points I understand.
BUT.
It's just further data on Raw fed dogs that can easily be gathered and shared. As much as you or I or anyone else might know that raw is wonderful, the lack of "data" (read also: useless) is one thing that makes a lot of people hesitate when it comes to taking the reins on their dog's diet.
A blood panel shows PART of the dog's overall health, and we all know diet plays a role in overall health.

I'm not generally a fan either, and only have them done if I see reason (Mousse's was done today prior to being under anesthesia for PennHIP) but I know a lot of people do bloodwork frequently.

 

Bill is correct in saying that a random blood panel doesn't show much, other than at the time of the blood draw how organs are functioning. But if something is very elevated or low, you can pull more extensive tests to help diagnose the issue. But usually if things are elevated blood work is being drawn because the animal is sick or old.

Also, repeated annual, or semi annual blood work is when you start to see trends in organ function. If for years and years blood panels always look fantastic you can assume that a raw diet is as ideal as it seems (and is from what I believe lol). I'm an advocate for routine blood work PAIRED with extensive physical examinations.

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

It would take a lot of data accumulation, in other words, people posting results for their raw fed dogs, but eventually there would be data to point to norms for raw fed dogs vs kibble fed dogs. Doctors pay a lot of attention to numbers.

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

i was thinking about this...and the values for a healthy raw fed dog would be different than what is used now.

these are pretty much arbitrary numbers, just like cholesterol in humans...normal was 250, then 200, now some are changing to 150, which i think is ridiculous, but that's me....the same goes for LDL and HDL, etc...

so, for raw fed dogs, i believe the numbers for the lab work would have to change....because if you change a diet, the blood values will change....and that would not play well into the vet's hardwired belief system..

i'm not knocking blood values. i think they are important...and enough of them saying pretty much the same thing, in spite of it not conforming to what is considered normal.....a raw fed dog would create its own normal...if enough were taken and turned into a database....

plus, pictures, which are also objective, measurements of the dogs, health issues if any...there would have to be a list of objective findings over the lifespan of the dog...

if we had a programmer who could create a database and each owner would be part of the study and fill in the blanks, with whatever we decided were the pertinent questions....and let's say once a week or once a month, fill it in...you'd have several thousand people and that would be something....really something....

granted, it's a rough thought....but refined and it would turn some heads.

I've designed databases.

 

I think it's a great idea. People like numbers, people like SOLID proof, and this would give it. It might not say that this diet is best, but it will quiet those who say it's dangerous because it's not giving the dog everything he needs.

Now as Magicre was saying "normal" for a commercial fed animal might not be "normal" for a raw fed animal. Since the majority of pets are fed commercial food, the normals vets use might not apply perfectly to raw fed dogs . I remember that when I was reading about raw for cats I read that cats on raw can have higher BUN levels (though still in "normal" range, just the high end of normal) and a few other things and that this is not a sign of illness, it is what should happen to a cat being fed more meat.

However I think anything way above or below normal would still be a red flag. I also think it's important to look at things over time, if things stay stable and the dog shows no signs of illness then his numbers are normal for him, right? And in any case you'll have a data base with trends between many raw fed dogs which would be interesting to see.

 

Here are Mollies results from her first ever blood test 4/2011. I can't remember exactly when she started on raw full time, probably 18 months or so.
Note: She was not fasted - she had eaten 2 hours beforehand and she was extremely nervous, panicking almost.
I'm not sure which values would or could be affected by nervousness and non-fasting though.

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I have Henry's thyroid bloodwork results. They are classified as OFA Normal. While not a CBC bloodwork, I still think this could be good info to add to this thread.

Free T4 2S: 11

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone: 12

OFA Classification: NORMAL

Total Thyroxine (T4): 49

Total Triiodothyronine (T3): 1.0

Free T3: 4.4 L

T4 Autoantibody: 13

T3 Autoantibody: 5

 

my girl's test report taken last year

Breed: Toy Schnoodle
Age: 2.5yrs at the time of the blood test
Length of time on raw diet: 2 years at the time of the blood test

 

Hi

I am new to this page so am having a litle problem getting my e mails out. I see u were using or questioning raw foods. I have an 9 wk old Maltase female. I am wondering if I can feed her COOKED beef heart, for now, as a reward/treat? If yes, then what age is recommended to say incorporate cooked carrots (which she loves) & the cooked beef heart, along with say some Iiams dog food.?

 

Here's the results of Mollies 2nd yearly bloodtest. Our vet called and said the results were perfect, so I am as happy as Larry. The only thing I can see is her lymphocytes are low (he didn't seem concerned at all) and her urine Specific Gravity was high, but apparently that can be caused by dehydration.

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I'm Happy.

 

Penny- A high specific gravity is GOOD...a low SG is bad. As specific gravity measures the concentration of urine! You want it to be nice and concentrated.

What time of day did you collect that urine sample?

 

About 8am, the first pee of the day. The appointment was at 10am, so I collected it in a sterile container and (after spilling 3/4 of it on the driveway) put it in the fridge.
Thanks for that Natalie, makes me even happier!

 

Then it makes sense that she was somewhat dehydrated as most dogs don't drink a lot of water overnight!

 

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Snorkels' bloodwork

Here is her blood panel from yesterday. The vet says he sees nothing to be alarmed about for a dog her age. He thinks everything is perking along well.

I guess the question I have is - if all these are really normal values, why aren't they within range?

 

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I don't think the values are really that high on the scale to worry about too much. Was she fasted? Was she very stressed and/or dehydrated, and did you get a urinalysis done at the same time? I'm about to launch into an elevated liver enzyme research mission as my friends old pug has quite elevated liver levels, just waiting to get a copy of his test results. So, if I find out anything, I'll let you know.

 

Snorkels? Fast? HAHAHAHA! Well, no - she didn't get a urinalysis and no dehydration since she drinks alot of water with her food. Her pee is normal and clear.

And yes, very stressed as going to the vet is difficult for her. She normally shakes all the time we are there and makes a run for the front door if she gets any opening at all.

Sorry about the pug - are they really high? The ALT and the BUN are the two that are sometimes high with Snorkels, although they are also sometimes in the normal range. I'm not sure about the other ones, I don't remember them being out of normal range before. i need to go back and dig up her last senior panel - I know the last blood test was just the simple one, and nothing was out of range at all.

 

Jersey's results from her surgery yesterday (TPLO) 7 years old, 2 months on raw, fasted
ALKP 12 , Ref range 23-212 U/L
ALT 10, Ref range 10-100 U/L
BUN 13, Ref Range 7-27 mg/dl
CREA 1.3, Ref Range .5-1.8 mg/dl
GLU 135, Ref Range 74-143 mg/dl
TP 7.5, Ref Range 5.2-8.2 g/dl

 

Her results on 9/29/14 before her 2nd tplo

ALKP 34 (23-212)
ALT 37 (10-100)
BUN 34 (7-27)
CREA 1.1 (0.5-1.8)
GLU 111 (70-143)
TP 6.6 (5.2-8.2)
ALB 3.3 (2.2-3.9)
alb/gl=1
bun/cr=31


She had bloodwork done this year before a dental too but must not have gotten a copy.

 

This is for Louis, Japanese Spitz, drawn on his 2nd birthday, 1 full year on PMR




CK was a bit high because he was training with me for my race :smile:

 

This is for Louis, Japanese Spitz, drawn on his 2nd birthday, 1 full year on PMR

that's pretty much perfect!

 

I have had Sarge on full time raw for a little over two weeks now. As a concerned and loving pet parent, I want to make sure he is doing well. His coat is not the kind to shine, its not been long enough to see a difference really, and I don't know what difference I would see in the future other than maybe decreasing his weight and better fur growth (he has very odd fur). I want to get a blood work done on him. Do you just randomly ask your vet to do this? When they ask me why should I tell them I have him on raw? I don't want to change vets and I don't want any drama. How much does a complete blood panel cost? I know each vet is different but I need to know a ballpark. I will happily post his results. When should I do this as Sarge hasn't been on it for long.

Thanks for answering my questions.

 

A tech can answer this better, but I've gotten two kinds of blood panels. A short one that's somewhere between $30-$50 and the "senior panel" which I just paid something like $120 for.

I get the shorter tests run routinely a couple times a year. If my dog is acting sick, I ask for the more extensive one. And sure, you can go in and ask.

It's also a good idea, i think, to get a blood panel done as a baseline in a healthy dog. That way you have something to compare to later if your dog gets sick.

And on the fur - I would be surprised if it didn't get better. Even my bald Dobie's coat is much better since we started raw. his peach fuzz is alot thicker and softer

Oh, and it's your call to tell them about the raw. Personally, I always tell because I think it's only fair to a vet that they know everything. But just for a blood panel, it really doesn't matter.

 

Sargeant is 8. OMG, he is 8!!!! Sigh. They have never asked to do bloodwork other than preop. I am thinking of doing the full panel even though the husband will think I am a whackjob. I just don't know when to?

 

Dogs are considered seniors at 7, and you have a large dog. Just my opinion, but I think you should get a full panel now. Not necessarily to find problems, but to have a comparison if he gets sick and the bloodwork when he is ill shows something abnormal. You will be able to tell if it was like that when he is healthy.

 

Yep, I'd go ahead and get a full panel done now, and then again in 6 months. After that.. every 6-12 months probably.