You mean, you are afraid of being sued because a client feeds their dog raw meat?

What in the heck is this world coming to?

By the way, my dogs have two vets - a regular one and a cardiologist. Both support the diet. Neither have felt it necessary to warn me about anything.

 

Yes. If a person acquired salmonella poisoning after improper handing of raw meat for their dog, and the vet did not warn them of the risks, this is a potential lawsuit. This is just how the world works. I probably would not be sued if a dog suffered an intestinal perforation, however I would certainly have an angry client and if they complained to the Board, I may have to answer to them.

 

To be very honest with you, I would still be upset with my vet. The reason? Because it assumes that I have not done any research at all in to raw feeding before I started.

I'm well aware that some bones can break teeth, (weight bearing bones from a larger animal), and I'm well aware of what they need in order to have a balanced meal.

What would tick me off is telling me I'm going to get an infectious disease from raw meat. If you're going to say that to raw feeders, you may as well say it to every single client who comes in to your place who eats meat at all because at some point, those people prepare raw meat to cook for dinner. I would also state that I know how to wash my hands, I know how to clean my dishes and utensils and I know how to disenfect the counter tops when I am done preparing their food. JUST like I do when I prepare my own food.

The only way I would get any sort of infectious disease from raw meat is if I decided to get down on all fours and start eating dog poo which I have no intention of doing. As for dogs, it goes through their system far too fast for it to ever take hold. So I would assume that my vet hasn't done the proper research.

I would also wonder what on earth the vet is talking about when they say, "perforated GI tract" because I don't feed cooked bones, I feed raw bones. I know that my dogs can handle raw bones. I know that feeding cooked bones can cause a perforated GI tract...which is why you don't feed an animal cooked bones.

I would then question my vet what on earth did they think wolves did for millions of years? And what did the vet think dogs ate before commercial dog food every became available.

And then I would be highly offended that they wanted to "warn" me about something that they clearly have not researched.

Do you know what is most appealing to me? My vet. And his vet techs. Do you know why? Because they asked me what I feed. They've asked me twice, on two separate visits. I tell them. The first time, they just notated it. The second time, the vet tech told me his uncle feeds raw. (Although it was really BARF cause there was veggies included). But neither time did the vet feel the need to tell me that I needed to watch out for this or that. My vet simply takes care of what I came in for. My vet even went so far as to show me the x-rays and give me an anatomy lesson on my dog's wrists. My vet cares and I can tell he cares because he most certainly enjoys educating but he knows enough not to get in to the business of what people feed their pets.

NOW, If I said, "I feed my dog chocolate all day long" by all means, warn me. But raw feeding? Please do full research, have FACTS to back you up and give the client the benefit of the doubt that they have done their own research.

When someone talks to me like that I get the impression that they think I'm stupid and that's the fastest way to get me to find another vet. Seriously.

Now, this is not directed AT you, I'm simply answering your question, "How would you feel as a client if your vet said something similar...?"

 

First I would highly suggest that you educate yourself on the diet before giving any advice. Is this something you plan on doing? If so, that will set you apart from many of the vets out there who know little to nothing about the raw diet.

I personally think that any client that is feeding a raw diet will be 10x more likely to listen and comprehend what you have for advice if you know what you're talking about. Its a HUGE turn off for any raw feeder to go to a vet to be told "Bones are dangerous" or the like.

Secondly, if you were to have an in depth conversation with me about raw and GENTLY suggest any risks that may be there, I would have no issue with you. But I REALLY don't think you need to be that in depth with a particular way of feeding.

Do most vets now tell us that "by feeding Beneful, you understand that you are feeding your dog absolute crap that is full of fillers & food coloring, right?" No...they don't. Choosing a food is the owners choice, not yours, nor would it be your fault should anything happen related to what they decide to feed.

 

Do most vets now tell us that "by feeding Beneful, you understand that you are feeding your dog absolute crap that is full of fillers & food coloring, right?" No...they don't. Choosing a food is the owners choice, not yours, nor would it be your fault should anything happen related to what they decide to feed.

I don't need to worry about warning about Beneful because any potential litigation would be directed at the company, not me

 

Are there any documented cases of someone suing their vet for catching salmonella from raw meat? And if so, who won? I think you worry too much. i would be MORE worried about not killing their dog with medical treatment YOU provide.

Everything is a POTENTIAL lawsuit. I could sue anyone for anything. Doesn't mean I have a case.

 

@Serenity: I can't make any assumptions about you as an individual. When I have a client walk through my door, I have no idea how much/little they know or think they know about raw feeding. Would you suggest instead of a direct warning of those risks, I ask if they are aware of them as risks?

 

To be completely and perfectly honest with you, I think you should not say anything. Just notate it. It is not for you to say what they choose to feed their pets be it pet food, (kibble), BARF diet or raw diet.

Most clients that walk through your door have NO clue about what they are giving their dogs in the form of kibble. The ones who feed raw, I can almost guarantee you they have done their research so, again, I really don't think they need any sort of warnings. If you want to warn someone of something, let them know what they are feeding their pets when they give them kibble. THAT is what should be warned against.

 

I don't think most of us would agree that what you think of as risks, we think of as risks. That's very subjective.

I loathe it when a vet tries to teach me about nutrition - and this was WAY before I started feeding raw. Loathe it.

 

I just think that you need to educate yourself with raw feeding....whether you agree with it or not. This way if a client comes in you will actually know what you are talking about when it comes to raw. Maybe even write up something to give to people with information about raw and dog nutrition (if the client is interested in raw, etc).

 

I don't understand why you are asking these questions at all. Don't you have more important things to worry about than whether you will get sued if a client gets salmonella from handling raw meat? Like how to pass your tests?

Me smells a rat.

 

So wouldn't any potential litigation be directed to the producers of the meat we feed our dogs then too?

Honestly, if you want to avoid a lawsuit, its simple. Be honest with people. But in order to be honest, you have to know what you're talking about. Just a tip.

 

That's why raw meat states it needs to be cooked to X number of degrees before eating. I thought I had a decent statement that included what I feel is necessary to state risks. However, it seems that stating anything bad about raw feeding is objectionable. Am I correct in that assessment?

 

Instead of figuring out ways to "cover your ass", wouldn't your time be better spent researching the diet you seem to be so afraid of? I believe that once you do, you will see that the "risks" you feel the need to warn your clients about are baseless when a raw diet is done properly.

I don't know that I would see a vet who was more concerned with being PC and "covering [their] ass" than they were about practicing educated, informed medicine.

 

Instead of figuring out ways to "cover your ass", wouldn't your time be better spent researching the diet you seem to be so afraid of? I believe that once you do, you will see that the "risks" you feel the need to warn your clients about are baseless when a raw diet is done improperly.

I don't know that I would see a vet who was more concerned with being PC and "covering [their] ass" than they were about practicing educated, informed medicine.

I've done research. Those are the risks. The risks may be large or small, but they are there.

 

If you go back and read my first response to you, it was very similar to Tobi's.

You asked. Be prepared for all types of replies.

And please, do share with us what you know about raw and how you are so inclined to know the risks vs. benefits.

 

I have no interest in a never ending debate on raw. That's not the purpose of this thread. I refuse to get sucked in to it. I simply asked for opinions on how best to state risks so I can cover my ass. Period. I got one direct, helpful response from one person on here, and that's fine. The rest of you seem to think that I should say nothing at all (which is not an option for me). However that is still helpful to know that there are going to be diehard clients that will refuse to hear any risk associated with raw.

 

Come on you guys - this is a TROLL rabble rousing the raw feeders to get a quote or two for a paper to raise their grade to a C

Real vets don't worry about such stupid stuff. Wanna be vets certainly don't

 

I agree completely...I just am the type that if you want to stir the pot....be prepared to take the wrath! Its just part of their game!

 

Ahhh NOW I remember you. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/introduce-yourself/6819-hello-2nd-year-vet-student.html

 

Well....there's popcorn involved in that thread. opcorn: So...it must be good!!!

:laugh:

 

Ack. Ack ack ack. urp.

 

where'd they go?

eep:

 

I recently went to my vet's office for the first time with my first dog. I got a tired, beaten-down speech about basically everything you said were the "risks" associated with raw feeding. I felt like I was being treated like a child. But I played along. When my vet said, at the end of our appointment, "So no more raw meat and we'll see you in three weeks. Okay?" I smiled back that same $*!*-eating grin that she was flashing me and said, "sure." If I hear even one [negative] remark about raw feeding again, they're going to get an earful. And a mouthful. And they'll never see me or my dog again. THAT's how much it pissed me off, to be talked down to by someone who clearly knows nothing about the diet I'm feeding, let alone dog nutrition in general.

I spent months researching the diet I chose for him--before I even met him--and I'm pretty sure that 99% of people who pay for veterinary care and feed their dog raw meat, have done even a basic amount of research. So to assume that they haven't in and of itself is an insult, because more often than not you're going to start off on the WRONG foot making that assumption.

You don't have to feed raw, recommend it or even approve of it. But you'll keep a lot more clients by actually looking into it *for yourself* and weighing the benefits, THEN making an UNBIASED decision.

 

I'm not making any decisions. Just asking opinions on how best to state risks. From what I have read, it sounds like you believe I should assume that people have done research and not state any risks at all. I've already mentioned that is not an option for me, but appreciate your input anyway.

 

Maybe it’s because I’ve recently had to endure thinly veiled ‘your killing your dog’ comments from my vet, I will admit it would be such a refreshing change to be able to discuss the subject with a vet who was even somewhat educated and open minded on the subject.
I feel so beaten down at the moment, that I would even welcome questions about what I feed; making sure it’s a balanced diet, discussing weight bearing bones, stuff like that. I guess that way I know my vet is listening and making sure I have done my homework.
My best advice would be to totally research and understand the diet, don't treat me like a child and use common sense when giving advice.
My next advice would be to explain to those who feed Pedigree, Beneful and the other crap foods what exactly is in the food and why it is such a terrible diet for a canine.
That’s my biggest beef, my vet makes disapproving comments about what I feed, but ‘friends’ who go to the same vet and feed Pedigree or Beneful never hear one word about what a terrible food it is and believe they are feeding a premium diet.

 

Thanks for the comment. Since I'm not planning on pursuing board certification in nutrition, I would not be able to help with making sure a diet is complete and balanced, and would have to refer a client to someone else for that. I agree that the "you're killing your dogs" is an inappropriate statement for your vet to make.

 

I think the point that she was trying to get at is how would he/she go about talking to knowledgeable raw feeders about it as a vet, Everybody seems to get really heated about this and in reality people as a mass are idiots, as stated there are labels on everything stating not to do really dumb things with it. people get sick from handling raw meats all the time, i honestly think if he/she is just trying to cover bases what is the problem with that? i have a book by tom lonsdale stating that taking proper precautions etc when handling raw meats is a must... would you speak to him the same way? he's warning of the same things.

 

This. Thank you!

 

I really don't see how it's not an option. If you're going to "note the risks" of raw feeding with your clients, I sincerely hope you'll note the risks of feeding kibble, as well.

Furthermore, if you were just looking for people to agree with you that it's okay to insult raw feeders by giving them a tired laundry list of BS they've probably already encountered, and then expect them to still come to you for medical advice, you came to the wrong place. All you've done is refute people who disagree in the slightest with you. I thought Serenity's post was thorough and and honest answer to your question. She's been nothing but civil with you, you're skirting around her questions [and others'] saying that WE'RE not answering YOUR questions [the right way]. If you want people to cooperate with you, YOU've gotta cooperate too. As my mom says, "you get what you get and you don't get upset."

 

You're not reading my posts or completely misunderstanding.

 

1- I'm not debating. 2- I never said DOGS would get salmonella. I'm talking about the human owners. Chill the **** out. :/

Unless you've changed your mind since you originally appeared here, YES, you have. You most certainly have.

Case in point:

"It's true, dogs and cats can get Salmonella and E. coli poisoning. How common is that? Probably not very common, but it can and does happen. Yes, I know you will point out that Salmonella has been detected in dry food, but that is very rare, whereas Salmonella is almost ubiquitous in raw meat."

Posted by you on February 14, 2011 in "Hello from a 2nd year vet student" Page 1.

So, again, PLEASE tell me what "research" you have done that proves they will get salmonella from raw meat. Thank YOU!

 

I told you I'm not debating this. Sorry.

 

I told you I'm not debating this. Sorry.

You are debating it when you make a claim. If you make a claim, you have to back up that claim. You can't just make a statement and tell everyone "I'm not debating it", you started the debate when you made the claim. I'm simply asking you to provide the "research" you have done that shows they will get salmonella. All you have done is tell me to "settle down" "chill the **** out", (nice...you gonna talk to your clients that way?), and avoid answering my question. Clearly you have no proof.

 

Ok.

-Karisma

 

As I think someone here already said, if you're not planning on getting the proper, thorough education in diets, then perhaps you should refer all clients you're not comfortable with out to someone who took the time to learn about a subject before speaking about it. You are clearly not comfortable with raw, which is fine. All of my close friends think I'm crazy for feeding my dog raw. I think they're crazy for feeding Purina and Friskies. If you are not honestly well-versed in something, then don't pretend like you are. By regurgitating information you've heard from professors or veterinary books or "research" and not actually having experience in it, you are doing your clients and their pets an extreme disservice. You can disagree with raw, but frightening them out of a healthy diet to make sure you "cover your ass" is not the way to do it. If you want to argue your opinion of raw diet negatives with patients, be sure to actually have multiple sources to back them up. Otherwise, the clients that know what they're doing won't take you seriously, and the clients that don't will not have been educated and may revert back to kibble diets that are unhealthy.

I have a vet that I adore, but I will only take my cat to him because he admitted he did not have a background with raw and while he could give me information from peers on it, he did not have a thorough knowledge. I'm taking Chip to a holistic vet that knows raw to make sure I get the best possible care for him. Don't forget, your profession is not about you, even if you believe it is or it should be. It is about the welfare of your four-legged patients.

 

I appreciate you all taking time to comment. I think I have learned all I have needed to here This has been educational, somewhat entertaining, and a great chance to practice self restraint. Back to the grind...

 

Fine. I'll dance along.

I would like to be able to say something comprehensive such as, "It looks like your dog is doing well on that diet. However, there are some risks associated with raw feeding, such as making sure the diet is complete and balanced, risk of either your pet or yourself acquiring an infectious disease from raw meat, GI perforations and broken teeth."

This = tired laundry list of bologna.

I can't make that assumption though. Because you have done your research, does not mean that others have. The veterinary oath states that we must protect public health. And things that seem like common sense still need to be stated, in our lawsuit happy society. This is why we have warnings on plastic bags to not place them over children's heads, and not to use the toaster in the bathtub. Someone out there has done it!

I said it's not an option for ME. See my OP, in which I tried to detail my need for fastidious record keeping and documentation.

If you truly feel that you can sit idly by while your clients feed their pets sawdust and euthanized pets, yet the moment someone who takes an active role in providing a higher quality of nutrition for their dog walks through your door you have to "warn them of the risks" so that you can file that little nugget away to avoid a lawsuit, your best bet is to engage them. Make it a discussion, with you asking questions like "what kind of research did you do" "what style of raw do you feed" "what kind of bones do you feed" etc etc.

I don't need to worry about warning about Beneful because any potential litigation would be directed at the company, not me

this really makes it seem like you're just out to cover your own butt and you couldn't give a **** about your clients' pets' health needs being met. Am I correct in that assessment?

See, I read your posts. :becky: