I feed dried kelp once a week to my dogs in their fish/egg meal, this particular brand says to feed: dogs to 25 lbs 1/4 tsp. 25-50lbs 1/2 tsp. and 50lbs+ 1 tsp. cats 1/8 tsp. Here is the link if you like. Life Line Pet Nutrition Inc.

 

just a silly question, but the sea kelp they sell at the grocery store...is that not okay for dogs?

 

The answer is no. I always look to nature when feeding my animals. I don't see wild dogs or wolves eating a whole lot of kelp. By far the greatest majority will never see kelp.

 

Dogs in the wild barely eat fish, let alone kelp. What nutritional need is it supposed to fulfill in a raw fed dog that the diet alone doesn't cover? Not being argumentative, just asking since I have no idea even after reading the link above which sounds like it was written for humans rather than dogs.

 

i'm neither supportive or against feeding certain non prey model elements......the one thing we can't say is that our dogs live in the wild. they don't.

we have no idea what feral dogs eat or don't eat to stay alive, dependent on where they reside.

 

This is what I found:

"Kelp" AKA the "vegetable of the sea" is a form of seaweed that is rich in nutrients. Kelp is rich in fiber and can increase fecal bulk or act as a mild laxative if needed. Besides keeping your dog regular, Kelp provides energy and endurance, promotes circulation and relieves nervous tension.

I, for one, am very interested to know why Whiteleo feeds this.

 

The key word being "vegetable". With the exception of increasing fecal bulk (why?) and acting as a mild laxative, the PMR diet already does these things since it's a balanced diet. I'm looking for what kelp provides above and beyond what the PMR diet provides. Still, I have no idea why you would want to increase fecal bulk. Kibble does that too with all the fillers in it. What's the point?

Searching for answers.

Jay

 

It's nutritious but I'm not sure if it's suitable with a raw diet. Someone else told me they feed it to their dogs with good results so I was curious to know if anyone here did and if they noticed any benefits?

 

I have found that kelp contains the following: Vitamins A, B-1, B-2, B-3, B-12, C, E, G, S, calcium, chlorine, copper, iodine, iron, lithium, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium, selenium, silicon, sulfur, zinc, chromium, cobalt, manganese, niacin, riboflavin, sodium and thiamine.

I give kelp to Duncan because he is not able to eat any organ meat or any red meats due to a health condition. He gets a modified BARF diet and I had to replace the vitamins and nutrients lost from not eating organs and a variety of meats with a veggie puree and extra supplements. His vitamins/supplements are given about once a week and contain kelp.

He is doing wonderful with this diet.

 

Max is going to be getting a kelp supplement too. He is fed a low percentage of his body weight and magnesium, maganese and zinc are a bit low. Some seaweeds are a very good source of this as well as iodine of course. Max gets some whole prey with all the blood and guts but not much. Perhaps if he ate 2% of his body weight and got more whole prey he wouldn't need anything added but as it is I do see an improvement in his condition when he gets the extra minerals.

 

I'm so glad Sara spoke before I could because I always feel attacked about how I feed my dogs. I've been feeding this for well over 1 1/2 years and have not seen any negative affects on my dogs, only positives. I don't feed organs every day and try to remember to feed them a meal every two weeks, but just in case I don't get it right this is my little bit of assurance that they get some of what they need.

I'm not sure why people here care so much that I feed kelp, its like people taking a vitamin everyday, do we tell them not to?

 

I don't fed kelp- mostly because I have a dog.


Unless your dog has a serious medical condition preventing them from being able to eat any one of the three factors on a prey model diet(meat, bone, organs) there is no need to buy them fish food.

 

And that is totally your opinion puppypaws, just like tripe. Don't condemn someone because they don't feed exactly like you!

 

This is what I think about kelp....

Do dogs need it? No....unless they're like Duncan and can't have a normal raw diet due to genetic disease.

Will it do any harm giving it to a normal healthy dog? Most likely no.

Will it help? Maybe. Those who do feed it say they see good results.

Me personally? I see wonderful results with just meat, bones and organs. I guess you could say I live by the rule of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" so I dont see a need to add in things like kelp. If I were to start seeing problems you betcha I would be exploring my options!

I don't see those who don't feed this kind of stuff as condemning those who do...it's just a difference of options and that's it.

 

And that is exactly my point Natalie, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" It works in my feeding program.

 

Thats great, keep doing what works well! :thumb:

 

I guess I don't really understand why there's always such controversy over these topics of feeding 'extras' or 'supplements'. Perhaps they aren't necessary for the average dog, but if kelp isn't detrimental then it can only either be beneficial or totally pointless. If it is beneficial, awesome! If it's pointless, it's not your money down the drain, so why should it bother you so much?

I could see debating this if kelp were harmful, but come on. If it makes somebody more comfortable to feed their dog kelp once a week and they see positive results with it, who's that really harming?

 

I guess I don't really understand why there's always such controversy over these topics of feeding 'extras' or 'supplements'. Perhaps they aren't necessary for the average dog, but if kelp isn't detrimental then it can only either be beneficial or totally pointless. If it is beneficial, awesome! If it's pointless, it's not your money down the drain, so why should it bother you so much?

There is a very good reason. When wild claims about most anything works its way into the raw feeding world, if no one challenges it, it all of a sudden becomes ingraved in stone and becomes an absolute truth. Examples would be the 80-10-10 rule which everyone swore by until people started questioning it. The miracles of green tripe went unchallenged for a while and eveyone thought their dog couldn't be healthy without green tripe in the diet. It had all these miracle properties. Now kelp is working its way into the world with some pretty wild claims about its necessity in a raw diet.

One of the excuses kibble feeders use not to start feeding raw is that "t's too complicated and I'm not sure if I am going to get it right." Well when people start throwing around 80-10-10 and green tripe and kelp,it starts to get complicated and starts to look difficult. People wonder how the heck do I balance all those things .. meat, bones, organs, tripe, kelp? How does tripe and kelp fit into 80-10-10? This is just too complicated. It's too much trouble to feed raw. You can't claim to feed PMR and feed kelp. It just doesn't fit. It's not a part of the prey. At least tripe is part of the prey.

To feed PMR, you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. You feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. There ... thats simple. Start throwing a bunch of other unncessary junk and it starts getting complicated.

So, although kelp isn't harmful, it isn't PMR. If you feed kelp then you must call yourself a BARFer. :smile:

 

I'll just add that I don't think it matters what you supplement your dogs diet with...Seriously if it has some form of nutritional benefit to add to the diet, why does anyone who doesn't use it care so much if it's fed to someones dog?

I don't use the argument that we should look to wolves to see what to feed our dogs. Look to what early people fed to their dogs, or what dogs scavenge off of and we take the best, most nutritious and ideal food they could eat, and feed them that. I have seen what feral dogs eat, largely because I lived in an area full of them where they had little positive interaction with humans...Other than the benefit of being able to scavenge off of food. Dogs are opportunistic feeders, albeit having the anatomy of any other canines - making them carnivores, opportunistic scavengers in my opinion will fill their stomach with whatever appeals to them. Please keep in mind that they are not obligate carnivores, they do consume plant matter, whether they digest it well or at all is another debate in itself. They are survivalists and wonder when their next meal will be. They eat to survive and won't survive if they don't meet their nutritional needs at least at the minimum. I can tell you what a feral dogs mouth looks like after years of living on their own, it's not pretty. Broken teeth likely from chewing on bones too hard for them which they do come across, they often have dull coats, and parasites up the wazoo. Why would you look to what dogs eat in the wild, or wolves for that matter? One of the only reasons I feed a prey model raw diet now with comfort is because my dogs receive human grade food that likely doesn't contain parasites. If I went out and gathered up what my dogs and their ancestors were eating I am positive they would have parasites, dull coats, and all around appalling health.

And just so it is known. Canines who have access to fish will eat them...Seriously, why pass up a healthy meal? I've witnessed sun baked, rotting fish eaten by a feral dog on more than one occasion...I bet she LOVED it.

 

If I went out and gathered up what my dogs and their ancestors were eating I am positive they would have parasites, dull coats, and all around appalling health.

Hehe, I like you CP. You are one of my favorites on the board. However I have to strongly disagree with that statement. Wolves(our dogs) have thrived for a million years eating meat, bones, and organs. They also eat rotting carrion and still were healthy and probably had beautiful coats as does any animal who eats what nature intends them to eat.

IMO feral dogs have such poor health and poor coats and are riddled with parasites is because they are eating human food (garbage). If they ate only other animals, I think they would be more healthy than most dogs in the world. Its the plant matter they eat that is so unhealthy for them and causes them to be such physical wrecks.

 

Keep pumping up that ego!

And, no, I was right the first time when I said OPINION. It's your OPINION that no possibility exists that anything other than meat, bone or organ could offer the slightest bit of benefit to a dog, correct? THAT, to me, is what's outrageous. You have to be pretty closed-minded to believe that just because something isn't a necessity means it can't be in any way beneficial. Unless you can somehow prove that kelp offers no benefit whatsoever, I don't think it's terribly farfetched that the possibility exists.

You may be a knowledgeable person but you don't know everything. Nobody does. I very often see you ridicule and belittle other members for their differing opinions or even for asking questions which you apparently find to be elementary. I've seen you step on other members to try and prove your points. You may think everyone views you as some omniscient expert, but I'll be honest. I don't give a baboon's bare bottom how many years you've been feeding PMR or training, that you're a moderator, or anything else. You'll STILL catch more flies with honey. There's no reason to treat people (people who are all here for the same common interest; the well-being of our beloved dogs) the way you often do.

 

I value your opinion very much RFD, and you've provided a great deal of info for me to base some of my arguments off of.
I tend to agree that if we did feed our dogs what they would prefer to eat, fresh kills and delicious carrion, then they would be in excellent health and most of our raw fed dogs are! I do think that the garbage they eat definitely gives them parasites, so does the wild game that sits out for days in he sun. I'm not sure how many parasites the food they scavenge off of us contain, I wouldn't think too many. They have fleas and ticks and those creates tape worms, so not all parasites come from the diet they eat - obviously.

Wolves do eat what our dogs would prefer to eat - most of the time! Which is why I look to what they eat as a simple guide, but don't copy what all wild canines eat to the T...because it's uncalled for and not always ideal. I'm not going to lie I would not be against grabbing -fresh- road kill. I'm sure my dogs would think I'm the greatest hunter if I brought them back a whole deer to feast on...Now that would be one of the most ideal meals I could possibly feed them. :] Organs, odd parts like the tongue, fur and all. If/when I am able to find them fresh game animals I would be all over feeding them just that instead of cow and chicken all the time.

Honestly, I've always had the secret desire to let my dogs pack up and hunt if they were capable of pulling off such a feat. Despite the fact that a death of a prey animal would be involved, I'd probably watch with a smile as they let their instincts take over. Just the circle of life in my opinion. If my dogs were able to pick out their own kills and carrion I don't doubt either that they would have gleaming coats and perfect health, because they would be getting the most optimal diet nature intended.

But - for dogs like Duncan, as Luvmybrt said, he would be dead right now unfortunately if he had to rely on the resources around him in the wild. He is a very lucky pup to have such a caring owner to look after him. I wonder though if certain disease and sickness presented by our domesticated companions is caused by their evolution along side humans.

 

Well, okay, if one feeds kelp then they aren't a true PMR feeder according to RFD. Fabulous, I don't need a label. I do add some kelp to my dogs' diet (as of late) as well as probiotics and fish oil. I wouldn't call myself a BARF feeder because I don't know the first thing about feeding a barf diet. I follow the 80/10/10 guidelines and anything else I add are just extra. I suppose I feed a modified PMR diet.

I just don't see a label as necessary. A label won't impact your dog's health.

 

I don't think labels are really needed either...It doesn't matter.

I would call myself a modified pmr feeder...You know why? I add things into their diet that they don't need at all. Indi eats cheese with her meds and the other dogs get cheese at the same time. It doesn't do her any harm, but it certainly doesn't add anything nutritional to her diet.

 

When did disagreeing become condescending or a put down? I never said "how dare you feed kelp, you terrible, terrible person!" So chill out.

It makes no sense to me. Period. Carnivores eat animal parts. This doesn't mean I'm belittling anyone, just that I find the whole idea a bit silly. Feed your dogs what you want.

I see Bill's point entirely about things becoming accepted as fact if left unchallenged. It's not so over the top, and spending a few hours on some other raw forums and lists will show you that. Kelp is becoming as big of a "miracle worker" as tripe has been accepted as.

Will either harm your dog? Tripe certainly won't, pretty sure kelp won't. So what's the big deal? It's been proven time and time again that neither are necessary and plenty of us have fed either or with zero improvement. But if it makes you more comfortable in feeding your dogs, then go for it.

If I didn't think "my" way was the best way, I wouldn't be doing. Just like if you wouldn't be doing "your" way if you didn't feel it was best. What humors me the most is when people feel their dog has some special genetic makeup making their nutritional needs different from any other carnivore. The exception, or course, being dogs like Duncan.

 

What humors me the most is when people feel their dog has some special genetic makeup making their nutritional needs different from any other carnivore. The exception, or course, being dogs like Duncan.

Please clarify what you mean by this? What argument do people use about a dog's special genetic makeup? I think it needs to be remembered that dogs do have different nutritional needs depending on their health which can definitely be caused by genetics.....Evolution...evolution changes genes, thus changing health.

 

I would say that most dogs wouldn't fall into the category of needing a modified diet like Duncan. Therefore not actually needing supplements like kelp or tripe.

I think Linsey's point is the people who consider their dogs to be omnivores and *needing* certain things that they don't actually need. I know from experience on several other dog forums that some people believe to the bottoms of their souls that dogs are omnivores and NEED fruits and vegetables. There are some on here as well. I'm perfectly fine with people believing this, even if it is false.

I don't think this should be an "us" versus "them" debate. Some people just feel more comfortable feeding their dogs extras and supplements...maybe just for peace of mind or maybe because they do see benefits of some kind.

Although, the prey model raw style of raw feeding is based off of what a wolves' natural diet is in an IDEAL setting...meaning one not of famine where they will eat whatever they can survive on. If we follow what wolves eat in times of plenty that is whole prey animals, comprised of meat, bones and organs. Ideally nothing else is needed. Unless your dog happens to have some kind of medical/genetic problem that requires something to be modified.

 

I sort of doubt many wild canines would pass up a good carrion meal...No matter what you say about prey being plentiful, they have to hunt to get fresh kills, so it is on their mind when their next meal is going to come around. Plentiful prey or not they will scavenge...

I don't know why people think that fruits and veggies are needed. Maybe because they don't/can't feed organ meat for some reason.
On another note, if your dog isn't getting a small amount of organ everyday, then I would argue that kelp is a beneficial additive. Especially if it is given everyday.

I've always wondered why people choose to feed an overdose on vitamins once a week? Wouldn't feeding 1 lb of liver cause an "overdose", whether it has negative effects or not, it would still be considered an overdose...Or I would assume. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think a giant meal of organ meat once a week is considered something a dog would get in the wild.

 

I sort of doubt many wild canines would pass up a good carrion meal...No matter what you say about prey being plentiful, they have to hunt to get fresh kills, so it is on their mind when their next meal is going to come around. Plentiful prey or not they will scavenge...

Oh, I never said they wouldn't scavenge! But what would they scavenge first? Dead animals....meat, bones and organs. I'm sure if times get really tough they scavenge for whatever they can survive on. But I don't base my dogs' diet off of times of famine.

I don't know why people think that fruits and veggies are needed. Maybe because they don't/can't feed organ meat for some reason.
On another note, if your dog isn't getting a small amount of organ everyday, then I would argue that kelp is a beneficial additive. Especially if it is given everyday.

I can see why people would need to feed fruits and veggies and kellp if they couldn't find a good source of organs.

I've always wondered why people choose to feed an overdose on vitamins once a week? Wouldn't feeding 1 lb of liver cause an "overdose", whether it has negative effects or not, it would still be considered an overdose...Or I would assume. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think a giant meal of organ meat once a week is considered something a dog would get in the wild.

I actually see feeding one large meal of anything, whether it be meat and/or organs as more of how dogs would eat in the wild. Wolves gorge/fast probably more often than not because not every day are they able to make a kill or find a good carcass. They eat what they can stomach, go and sleep it off and maybe eat a few days later. That is why a lot of die hard raw feeders do gorging/fasting with their dogs...we do on occasion (we are actually going to do it tonight with a whole hog!).

 

I have never been to another forum where kelp was even suggested, the only forum I even go to is yahoo groups rawbullterriers and they by no way say to feed kelp, I did this on my own research and knowledge, I don't need someone else to tell me what I think my dogs might need. Tripe I decided to try because it was the biggest order that always came through our co-op, I'm glad I did too.:thumb:

I can't say whether or not the way I feed has anything to do with the way my dogs, skin and hair are as soft as a baby's butt, or their teeth as white as a porcelain tooth, or they have never had the desire to eat their or any other dogs poop, have not lost any hair or bald spots, don't eat grass like cows anymore. All I know is that this diet works and I haven't promoted the use of kelp to anyone.:tongue::amen:

 

I have never been to another forum where kelp was even suggested, the only forum I even go to is yahoo groups rawbullterriers and they by no way say to feed kelp,

Several years ago the idea of feeding kelp was popular on the raw feeding forums, particularly the yahoo rawfeeding list, because of the iodine in kelp. Some people thought and probably still do think that there isn't enough iodine in a PMR diet or RawMeatyBones diet or whatever they call their diet. I don't know that thyroid problems in raw fed dogs is any worse than kibble fed dogs. The thyroid gland is the iodine center of the body.

 

I agree they gorge and fast. They probably wouldn't need to in an ideal setting, but I couldn't say they wouldn't as that is entirely their own personal preference. I don't agree that they will find a giant meal of solely organs once a week in the wild though. There is simply no way for that to happen. When I think of a true to the bone PMR feeder I am thinking of someone who offers organs at every meal, as if a dog were eating whole prey items, as you say this diet is based off of, they would be getting organs at every meal.

But here is the argument that wolves and dogs won't share organs. They eat what they can manage to stuff their mouth with and I highly doubt each member of a pack is going to take a small bite out of an animals liver and leave the rest of it for the other members to get the nutrients they need. I'm sure they hunt on their own at times, eating whole smaller prey items, so they would in fact be getting the amount of organ they need...But in no way will they find a meal of solely organs. There are so many organs in an animal that each member of a pack could in fact be getting at least a small amount of organ each if the pack is small enough at each big -shared- meal.

If we're going to slap a label on people, I don't think anyone around here is feeding the gold standard of what a PMR diet is said to be based on by so many - the feeding of what a dog or wolf would be getting in the wild - whole prey items and let's not forget anything they could scavenge off of that appeals. Everyone here feeds a modified diet. Remember that, and let's not condemn the way other people feed.

edit: And let's not forget the common ground upon which we all stand here...We all do believe that raw meat is what our dogs were designed to digest and eat, and that is what we feed.

 

IBut here is the argument that wolves and dogs won't share organs. They eat what they can manage to stuff their mouth with and I highly doubt each member of a pack is going to take a small bite out of an animals liver and leave the rest of it for the other members to get the nutrients they need.

This is the reason that a wolf/dog wouldn't get organs every meal but MAY get some organs with SOME meals at irregular intervals.

I'm sure they hunt on their own at times, eating whole smaller prey items, so they would in fact be getting the amount of organ they need...But in no way will they find a meal of solely organs.

I agree.

If we're going to slap a label on people, I don't think anyone around here is feeding the gold standard of what a PMR diet is said to be based on by so many - the feeding of what a dog or wolf would be getting in the wild - whole prey items and let's not forget anything they could scavenge off of that appeals.

We feed what we can to approximate whole prey eventhough as mentioned above, wolf/dogs wouldn't get to eat the whole prey animal. The pack would eat it together.

Everyone here feeds a modified diet. Remember that, and let's not condemn the way other people feed.

Nobody is condeming anyone. I don't know where you are getting that. A person can make a statement that kelp isn't a normal part of a wolf/dog diet without condeming anyone.