Well...! Speaking from personal experience, since I used to be one of those :biggrin:, I simply wasn't ready. I was new to owning a dog, caring for a dog, and practically all things dog related...and being the obsessive person that I am, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was doing before I went ahead and dove into something I knew little about. I was scared about a 'balanced diet'...a feeding schedule...a weekly menu, all that good stuff. Then there were the stupid reasons, like how I thought Louis looked so cute stuffing his face into his bowl and crunching kibble pieces, or hearing the pitter patter of his paws when he heard me open the kibble storage bin! I just wasn't sure what things were going to be like after I ventured away from the security and conformity of kibble. To a new dog owner, it seemed the conventional way to do things. So part of me didn't want to dive into raw 100%, but the other part of me didn't want to wait for me to be ready to start, if that makes sense :tongue:

Of course now, when I see people ask the same question I asked months ago, I catch myself thinking, "...If you're going to do that, why not just go full raw? It's not that hard!" Haha, I've come a long way :smile: ...and I have to remind myself that doing half and half actually made me want to feed raw more, and that it's just as important to start feeding raw when you are truly ready to feed raw, so you can put forth the effort and commitment to never go back to kibble!

 

Ideally we would all eat whole uprocessed foods, but even my own diet is 50/50, simply because I cannot afford to shop at stores like earthfare or buy organic all the time. We all do the best we can, I'd like to believe that most of the people on this board have done extensive research to cater to their animals particular needs. It may be a medical issue, it may be a cost issue, it may be an ethical issue, its not for us to judge. I do the best I can in my situation, for me personally, I cannot afford to feed things like venison, lamb or rabbit on regular basis, I'll buy raw when its on sale, for other times quality kibble like acana/orijen provides a greater variety in dogs diet that would otherwise be cost restrictive in fresh form.

Sometimes I think Uno eats better then me, I'd avoid foods with artificial colors, preservatives, refined sugars for him, etc, yet I often find myself consuming the same ingredients I deny my dog. As a whole, I think dogs are a lot better adapted to eating variety of things and doing well on them, doesent mean I'll be feeding him dog chow anytime soon, but a combination of fresh and "healthy" processed is just fine in my opinion.

 

I think there is a bit of a fallacy occurring, that raw is the most perfect thing anywhere for anyone and their dog. There are cons to every type of feeding. And, one particular diet doesn't work for every dog.

I tend to agree with most of what Unosmom says. But, one of the main reasons I don't feed raw has to do with the potential of spreading harmful bacteria to humans. Most people would be ok with infrequent exposures to salmonella, campylobacter, e. coli, etc. But, children, the elderly, and immuno-compromised individuals are at higher risk of severe disease and chronic consequences from these diseases. Since my dog is very "in your face" and we meet a lot of people in and outside the home, I wouldn't feel comfortable with knowing the fact that his mouth may be a vector for these bacteria. I have other, anecdotal reasons for feeding kibble and homecooked rather than raw.

Being a science student I really do wish there were some more studies in this area...

And, I agree with the fact that most people come here to figure out what (healtheir) diet works best for them and their dog, and it may not be ideal to everyone else, but it is what works for them.

 

I think there is a bit of a fallacy occurring, that raw is the most perfect thing anywhere for anyone and their dog. There are cons to every type of feeding. And, one particular diet doesn't work for every dog.

I think you're wrong. There is a perfect diet that fits every dog. It's the diet their bodies were designed to eat and digest. All dogs have the same digestive system and pretty much the same nutritional requirements. There is no difference.

But, one of the main reasons I don't feed raw has to do with the potential of spreading harmful bacteria to humans.

Then you are not feeding your dogs raw for a reason that doesn't exist. There is no more potential for raw fed dogs to spread bacteria than for any other fed dogs. I have lived with raw fed dogs for 9 years without an incident. When my wife lived with me, she was severely imunocompromised. She took no special precautions. She got licked in the face a lot and handled the dogs a lot. When her mother was alive, she was also severely imunocompromised in her later years and never had a problem. My grandchildren used to play in the floor w/ my Danes and got slobbered on a lot. No problems. No one visiting my house ever had a health problem because of my dogs being raw fed. I don't even wash my hands most times when I'm feeding them. I don't take any special precautions against bacteria and have never had a problem in 9 years. My dogs usually eat on the carpet in the living room and/or den and I don't wipe it up when they finish. I am very confident in saying that there is not a problem of catching anything from a raw fed dog that you can't catch from a kibble fed dogs.

But, children, the elderly, and immuno-compromised individuals are at higher risk of severe disease and chronic consequences from these diseases. Since my dog is very "in your face" and we meet a lot of people in and outside the home, I wouldn't feel comfortable with knowing the fact that his mouth may be a vector for these bacteria.

My dogs are very "in your face" Great Danes and they meet new people every weeek and there has never been a health problem because of it. There have been bruises where people got hit by a wagging tail but no raw fed bacteria problems. Again, this is a problem you have cooked up in your mind. It isn't a problem in the real world.

I have never seen any valid evidence that a raw fed dog's mouth has any more bacteria than a kibble fed dog. I suggest that the kibble fed dog has more bacteria. You can determine this by the bad breath and filthy teeth of a kibble fed dog. Both of those indicate bacteria. Raw fed dogs don't have either of those problems.

I have other, anecdotal reasons for feeding kibble and homecooked rather than raw.

So far you haven't given any evidence at all. Only unfounded suspicions.

Being a science student I really do wish there were some more studies in this area...

Anyone who can't quite go along with accepted theory always wants more studies, hoping for one that will prove their point.

And, I agree with the fact that most people come here to figure out what (healtheir) diet works best for them and their dog, and it may not be ideal to everyone else, but it is what works for them.

Thats just not true if you study the dogs body, particularly digestive system. There is a diet that they evolved to eat over millions of years and then there are all the diets that humans have tried to impose and force them to eat.

 

My daughter has severe asthma and gets sick a lot. She has never had any complications, I have had 3 major heart surgeries. I have never gotten sick over handling or because of my pets. Germs are everywhere. Makes sure you cut, clean and disinfect afterwards. No big deal. As for the dogs, they lick their butts, privates, and everything else lol.

 

I see where you are coming from DarDog, I was a science student as well. I majored in microbiology actually...so naturally bacteria and getting sick were both concerns of mine. But coming from science, you also know that it's not that easy to contract salmonella or E. coli just by simply touching it. Raw feeding is really just the same as handling meat and preparing it for human consumption. As long as you follow basic hygiene and wash your hands after handling everything, there shouldn't be a problem. Most of these strains also can't survive long without moisture... Which is why I stopped being so concerned about my dog letting his meat touch the floor. He licks my face too, but I usually just let him have 10 mins or so after eating before I let him do that to me. I'm sure his saliva has already taken care of most germy germs by then. Besides, I let him lick my face...not french kiss me, there's a difference lol! And I never know when he last ate poop!!!

 

I will say that the way I talked myself of of the "I can't afford to feed raw" mentality was by telling myself (and my husband) that hell, we go out several times a week and feed ourselves $40 meals... surely we can cut out one and put that towards Miko's food. It worked. I cannot, in good conscience, feed my dog anything less than raw meat KNOWING that if I were a bit more selfless I could afford it. There are almost always ways to save money for the important things in life. Eat out less, drink less, do you really need that manicure? Do you really need new shoes?

 

Do you really need new shoes?

When they have enough miles that I can no longer run/walk the sled dog, then yes! LOL.
My goal this year is to treat my feet better footwear-wise simply because of the huge amount of miles I walk/run/hike with my dog. Obviously not new dancin' shoes like what you were referring to probably... lol.

But I seriously see your point. And it is way easier to do than I thought it'd be. I'm kicking myself for not having done it sooner.

However some selfish part of me looks at things from an economic standpoint (demand increases price) and is happy when people who know better choose not to. Very selfish of me I know.

 

I think the point of Linsey's post is not in direction of people who want to feed raw that aren't quite ready, or unable for whatever reason. I think her questions are more directed towards those who swear by feeding kibble but then also add meat, because they want to get more meat in their diet. The real questions is: what's the kibble providing that whole natural foods cannot?

 

I guess the kibble is providing convenience, and the peace of mind of a "completely balanced diet." Packages are cleverly labeled with nutritional breakdowns of vitamins and minerals. By going PMR, you have to start doing shopping, browsing, and bargaining. We constantly look for sales and new meat sources, and when our freezer reserves get low, we have to go out and start searching again. Unless you enter specific proteins into a database, there's no fancy chart that gives nutritional data that we humans just love to read and analyze. To feed partial raw, you can give a dog meat thinking it's healthier, but also because you happen to have extra meat in the freezer. You don't have to worry about getting a variety of protein sources, or looking for cheap finds, because the simple fact that you are adding fresh chicken or beef is better than just feeding kibble. You also don't have to worry about "doing it right" because putting kibble into a bowl can't go horribly wrong (...or can it?? :smile. Also, when you don't have extra meat to feed, there's the convenience of just feeding kibble. When kibble runs out, no need to scour resources...just go to the store and pick up another bag! No need to worry about balance...or feeding the right % of organ, meat, and bone...because kibble is already "balanced" (note the quotations! :tongue That's my take on it at least.

 

These arguments get old!

 

You must feed kibble....

 

Yep I do!!!!!!!!!! And not ashamed of it at all! And this is on here so often it does get old!

 

It's so very easy for me not to read threads I'm not interested in. I do it every day. You have to conciously click on a tread to read it. If you don't click it, you don't read it. If you don't read it, you don't get upset.

 

I tend to agree that it SOUNDS logical that real food is superior but I guess there is still some doubt in my mind if comparing to the elite foods like Orijen. Yeah, I add meat to their food...largely in part because their eyes bug out of their heads when I break the cooked chicken out. Maybe laziness, heck, I'm not sure. I'm also worried that I just don't know enough about raw/real food and fear I'll miss something and not provide them a balanced diet whereas the kibble provides a balanced diet with all the nutrients they need/require. Also, the idea of a bunch of raw food all over the countertop 2x per day just seems overwhelming to me.

Also, this comment from the lady who wrote the "Dog Food Project" about sums it up... this was taken from a section on "myths" of feeding.

A dog can only truly be healthy if you feed a raw diet This is another claim never backed up by scientific proof. Any animal can only be healthy if its diet supplies all essential nutrients in sufficient quantities. If even just one of them is missing or not present in at least the minimum required quantity, the animal will start showing signs of malnutrition, eventually become sick and die. Some deficiencies don't take very long to become apparent, others develop over a long time before the critical state of health becomes obvious and some diseases are even caused by excessive intake instead of deficiency. The key to a healthy dog is not either raw or processed food, but an overall diet that meets the individual requirements of the dog in question.


I've got to defend Wags a bit here also... While I KNOW that Linsey didn't intend to insult the dry feeders --and-- Raw, I realize I don't HAVE to read the post, it does come across a bit condescending. I'm just being honest here. I completely understand the question, it's one of logic. I'm just saying it COULD be taken as a jab.

All that said, its all fine.

 

The main reason I can see to not feed a PMR diet is if your dog has a health condition preventing it.

With canine hyperuricosuria dogs who are known stone formers can not eat meats (or any food for that matter, Brewers Yeast is the absolute worst) that are high in purines (red meats, organs, sardines, etc). Because Duncan has this condition I can not feed him a PMR diet. If I just ignored his condition and fed a PMR diet he would without a doubt end up with a bladder full of urate stones and in an emergency surgery due to a blockage. However, there are other healthy and fresh ways to feed him other than kibble (modified barf diet, home cooking, etc).

And I also want to say that I have nothing against those who feed kibble. I fed kibble for 10 years and my dogs lived happy and fulfilling lives.

Just my 2 cents! :tongue:

 

OT

To MissusMac:

Beautiful Dog! opcorn:

 

So far you haven't given any evidence at all. Only unfounded suspicions.

I wouldn't call them unfounded suspicions. There have been several studies showing that bacterial shedding from dogs is different between those fed raw versus others. I am not saying they are conclusive, believe me. But, this definitely doesn't make my opinion "unfounded". Here are the titles to some articles - I think you should be able to get the abstract, but if you want the full article, PM me. Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets
and Evaluation of the Risks of Shedding Salmonellae and Other Potential Pathogens by Therapy Dogs Fed Raw Diets in Ontario and Alberta - which was funded by the Public Health Agency of Canada.

But coming from science, you also know that it's not that easy to contract salmonella or E. coli just by simply touching it.

And, thanks Schtuffy for bringing that up! I'm not concerned about myself and food-borne illness, I am quite healthy. It is my nephew and my friends children that concern me most - my pup likes to get right in there hwell:. I am all too familiar with the feco-oral transmission of these diseases ainkiller:

I just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean everyone would get sick - I was talking about the risk of becoming ill. Some are at higher risk, but most are not. That is all :smile:

I think the point of Linsey's post is not in direction of people who want to feed raw that aren't quite ready, or unable for whatever reason. I think her questions are more directed towards those who swear by feeding kibble but then also add meat, because they want to get more meat in their diet. The real questions is: what's the kibble providing that whole natural foods cannot

Thanks for the clarification danemama - that makes more sense. The only answer I have to that is convenience. I don't swear by kibble, hence the partial home-cooked diet.

PS - I don't know if I'm doing the quoting thing right, so I apologize if I have messed it up!

 

Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets

This study covers 1 meal and 1 stool sample from 20 dogs, 10 BARF fed and 10 Commercial food fed. There is just no way this study can be anywhere near conclusive. Even the results didn't make sense. Some dogs had salmonella in their stool but none in the food they ate and some had salmonella in the food they ate but none it their stools. This is a very very weak study.

Evaluation of the Risks of Shedding Salmonellae and Other Potential Pathogens by Therapy Dogs Fed Raw Diets in Ontario and Alberta

This study contained 200 dogs but it counted dogs that had eaten raw meat one time in a year to be raw fed dogs. They did not correlate when raw meat was fed vs when salmonella was detected in stools.

One thing both of these studies and all the other so called studies have failed to do is to produce any humans infected w/ all this salmonella found in stools. They are saying salmonella in stools is a big problem but are failing to produce any adverse effects from this salmonella. Sounds to me like they are trying to create a problem where none exists or trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. None of the so called scientists have ever fed their own dogs a raw diet. If they did, they would understand the futility of what they are trying to do. They are trying to prove that raw fed dogs are giving a lot of people salmonella poisoning and it just isn't happening.

 

Umm, yes, I did mess it up - apparently I don't know how to quote with "___ originally posted"

 

Harleigh was on 100% raw for 7 months and was doing great. (before that she was on 1/2 raw for about 6 months). However, due to me not being able to find enough variety (I didn't think I was giving her enough) and things getting a bit pricey because I am unable to buy in bulk... I've put her back on 1/2 kibble. So she gets kibble in the morning and raw at night, it works for me for right now. Obviously, I'd like to get her back on raw 100%, but that won't be for a little while - being a broke college student doesn't help much either, LOL.

I add a bunch of stuff to Harleigh's kibble because she enjoys it and I think she likes getting something "different" in it. She gets everything from fresh meats & eggs to yogurt/cottage cheese and fruits/veggies (I don't really think they NEED veggies at all, but Harleigh enjoys them so she gets them every now and then). So thats why I add "fun" stuff to her kibble.

So while I know that dogs are carnivores and I do feel that feeding raw is probably the best thing, I just can't do it 100% right now. So right now my comprise is feeding it 1/2, that way Harleigh still gets to enjoy her raw meals (& she LOVES them) and she still gets clean and shiny teeth!! :biggrin:

Not sure if that even answered your question, but theres my story! :wink:

 

I guess what I don't understand, even still, is all the money spent and stressing over getting the "best" kibble diet, and the absolute NIGHTMARE of finding one that works for your pet.... the having to add this and that to get it "closer" to a natural diet. I don't get it.

Why OPT for processed?
Why choose that for your pet?
I know it's overused, but it really IS like fast food every day. I just can't imagine choosing that for my pets or kids. Not after I learned about it, anyway. i can't wrap my head around it.


I don't doubt for a second that every person on this forum cares about their pets more than the average owner. And I applaud that. And Wags, I'm sorry you feel this comes up a lot. But I don't. ANd I wanted to ask. If you don't care to share WHY you feel kibble is superior to raw, then please, feel free to ignore this thread. :smile:

 

Why OPT for processed?
Why choose that for your pet?
I know it's overused, but it really IS like fast food every day. I just can't imagine choosing that for my pets or kids. Not after I learned about it, anyway. i can't wrap my head around it.

For me, at the moment I have to opt for processed, at least 1/2 way. I simply did not think Harleigh was getting enough variety, especially in Organs department. Its not that I don't want to feed raw, I think raw is awesome, but at the moment I can't continue to feed her 100% raw.

Is it what I want? Not particularly, but its what I can do for my girl right now and she doesn't hate me for it, so we're all good.

ETA - also for all raw feeding does in its glorious ways, some dogs just do NOT agree with it. Rebel cannot tolerate any type of raw food (makes him sick) and most times he hates it. I know someone who owns a Lab, she just found out her lab had cancer so she wanted to switch to a raw diet... after researching and researching she finally made the jump and for quite a bit her dog did not keep down a raw meal (no matter what kind).

So sometimes it doesn't work for everyone and even though they *want* to feed it or have done research on it, it just doesn't go that way.

 

I really do think it's as simple as it's easy to feed kibble.It's easy to take with you if you travel.And I think when you add ether some home cooked or canned or yogurt or what ever it makes it exiting for the dog and also I do think it adds something.I can tell you that's some of the things I'm struggling with and why I'm only switching one dog at this time to see if I can keep up with it.I can tell you it's not that easy I'm having trouble finding good deals and having the groc. stores call me back all that fun stuff.So I'm not at all sure I will switch my other two over 100% but I can't just throw kibble in the bowl, I have to add something to make it more exiting for them and it does.But I know raw is better there are just some draw backs.

 

This topic was started in the general discussion area so it wouldn't get kicked out of the kibble section. and of course it would become a RAW vs. KIBBLE debate look at the content.
I mean, I thought the object of this thread was to ask why people fed meat along with their kibble, not for people to defend or explain why they feed kibble.
If that doesn't say that this thread was started to create a war between the two, then I don't know what will. Also, the name of the thread 'just....why? doesn't give you a clue as to what it's about either, if it had said raw vs kibble debate then you'd know to ignore it as you can never win anyway!!

 

With all of the junky crap kibbles out there and the general lack of knowledge on pet nutrition, I am more than thrilled when people feed high quality kibbles. If they want to add fresh meats and other goodies on top of that, I think that's awesome! I'm sure the dog enjoys every bit of it, and it's not like s/he's being forced to eat Beneful. I don't think this is something we should be looking down our noses at people for.

If those peoples' interests in pet nutrition evolve and they decide they want to look further into raw (and it seems as though that's the way it usually happens) of course I'm glad to share with them everything I've learned, pass on links, share meat sources, etc.

However, I feel like if I constantly start raw vs kibble debates with people, or make them feel inferior for feeding high quality kibbles or extras with their high quality kibbles instead of raw, or try to force them to feed raw, it's only going to dissuade them from raw feeding.

Let's be honest here; it could be MUCH worse. They could be feeding Pedigree. At least they have the sense and the willingness to fork out the cash for a quality food.