"Rubbing his nose in it" is really outdated. All it shows your dog is that you are erratic and untrustworthy...they don't understand that it means don't go in the house. This is nothing more than an attack to a dog. Its surprising how many people actually still use these types of methods.

Thanks for sharing!

 

Yep. It is really outdated. Lots of things are really outdated but people still put them into practice for some reason...I would think prong collars would be outdated by now, with all the other effective ways we know of teaching our dogs to walk on a loose lead or even the other more 'humane' band-aid options. But there are always going to be people who refuse to be open minded. I was actually recently very surprised to find out a popular compulsive trainer who laughed at the idea of clicker training, admitted that he had been stupid not to use mark and reward training. The trainer I speak of is Ed Frawley, trains/breeds working GSDs. I don't agree with much of what Ed Frawley does, so no one go looking him up for advice. But he's a classic example of out of date methods being put to use...Another classic example would be the Dog Whisperer. Talk about out of date methods AND out of date information. Half of the stuff Cesar Millan preaches 'expired' in the eyes of reputable trainers years ago. Unfortunately he has a giant following of misled pet owners.

 

What I tell people is that if you want to know what NOT to do...watch Cesar Millan.

 

Man that is so "old school" and it's sad that you still hear people saying it. I have a co-worker who has done it, and later asked me what to do when it happens again because rubbing his nose in it is not working. No kidding, I bet she still wishes she had never asked me because I went off on a tangent about training. I'd bet she is still trying it, but now when she asks me for advice on training I give her a magazine with tips for dog training. You don't want to try my advice about several things so I stick the advice from someone else in her face now and hope maybe if she reads the same thing from someone else and she will think twice about my advice. I know I'm not formally trained, but when I have an issue with a dog I always sit back later and try to figure what I may have done wrong and what I can do differently in the future. This approach, and being willing to learn and be open minded has helped me solve a lot of problems. It's too bad dogs can't speak. lol

 

No kidding, a lot of the stuff Cesar does could get a lot pet owners attacked. Ever wonder why he has a disclaimer at the start of his show? LOL. I think that may speak for itself, his style of training is limited at best. How in the world is a seven year old going to take control of the situation in a physical, forceful manner with a big dog? I know of several ways a seven year old can take control of a dog with other methods of training that don't involve physically forcing the dog into what you want them to do.

Ya, I've had two people I'm actually close to who thought that making the dog look at the poo and smell it was the way to go, Stajbs. They were misinformed and when they saw the progress their dog made in potty training through more neutral + positive methods the tune they had been singing all along quickly changed. Unfortunately some dogs will continue carrying the emotional damage their owner has caused to them via these dumb 'out of date' training methods, even when methods are switched to positive reward based. It's nice of you to give her training tips and magazines, the only magazines dog related I receive regularly are Clean Run and APDT...They usually contain quite a bit of helpful info, agility wise and training wise. Any you've read or recommend that are good? I've found that the web is a great place for info, both free and e-books/vids you can buy online!

 

Like most first time dog owners I have been given a fair selection of helpful hints and tips from other dog owners like:
Rub her nones in the pee ( a bit pointless as she was potty trained in 14 hours )
if she jumps up knee her in the chest - from a ex dog trainer
The first thing you need to do is she is demanding attention is bite her (just below the cheek)
If she growls just smack her and if she does it again just smack harder you will know how hard do do it as it will change her response.

I don't know how many of these would have been said to me if I owned a poodle or a lab not a rottie.

Any way I was watching extraordinary dogs on channel five (this is a link and I think it works internationally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0jAEbNWvrA) and 8 min 39 seconds in I see this.

Now this is an assistance dog, later on you find out that they train all there dogs this way!!! and the collar was on throughout the show, not just when the dog was out doors but all the time.

 

I can't see the vid D: What happens to the dog?

Good thing you're smart enough not to take advice like that, I feel bad for the dogs with owners who do use those methods to 'train' them. :|

 

I'll try and find a link of the clip rather than the uk tv channel. Nothing happens on screen to the dog other than it being a very obedient animal, but I think that is the point it is just that obedient. If the dog needs to have the prong on all the time my assumption is that it is not trained. Certainly in the uk where it is impossible to by a prong on the high street no assistance, therapy or guide dogs would ever be released to there new owners if they needed a check chain!!

My understanding of the prong collar (which is limited) is that it can be a very good training tool in the correct hands. but it is supposed to be a training tool not an everyday working collar.

Thankfully I have a very good trainer and vet (also a dog behaviourist) who have been very helpful and supportive of the complete noob to rotti ownership. They have only recently told me what there first impressions where when I came in the class, and needless to say they were under the impression that I would end up with a totally dysfunctional dog. Yes even the vet reckoned that the most likely thing to kill my dog was going to be him 12 months down the line (that was said at our vaccination appointment).

Although not quite at 12 month ownership, there opinions have changed and for the moment I have a very happy loveable pet

 

I think there are other more humane ways of teaching a dog to give you attention, rather than having to physically prompt them constantly with a device like a prong collar. There are just so many things I can think of that are wrong with prong collars that go against the way I would teach someone to train their dog...To me a prong collar is no better than an electric collar or spray collar on a very low setting. I'm not saying that a prong collar, electric collar, and spray collar aren't effective in the right hands, they can be for whatever it is you're trying to extinguish. I wouldn't use them though, I prefer to see a nice end result and if it takes me a little extra time to get there at least I know I didn't damage my dog or the way she/he relates to me on the way to that end result. I don't think a prong collar, electric collar, or spray collar have any place at all in the learning stages of a new trick. I consider almost anything you would teach your dog a trick, so in my world a prong collar has no place in the learning process of loose leash walking. The main use of a prong collar is to stop the dog from pulling, right? What happens when you take the prong collar off and put a regular collar on? In the absence of that constant pinching I bet your dog isn't going to understand what loose leash walking really is. That's why I would call a prong collar a band-aid, and it's not a good band-aid either - there are more humane, effective harnesses and halters out there now for your pet. To name two that I regularly sell to clients, Easy Walkers and Gentle Leaders. They are band-aids and in no way are meant to replace the learning of loose leash walking.

Anyway...I've worked with a lot of Rottweilers, they are my FAVORITE breed of all time. :] I've wanted a rotti or a siberian husky since I was a wee little kid and I haven't had the chance to own either breed yet, but I've had the chance to train both breeds. Why did they think your dog would end up dysfunctional? Is she or he a really rowdy pup?

 

They thought my pup would end up dysfunctional because I had not the slightest bit of ability. I was (probably still am) a case of the person who had read everything there was to read on the subject, I had books coming out of my ears that I had borrowed from the library. I had read everything on pup training from the dummies guide, right through to the dog whisper and read countless websites. Then I got my pup and really did not know what to do.

I had made the choice to go down the gentle training ( half my sources ) but most people thought I was too soft on my pup. They were worried that I would not be able to instil any boundaries and a rotti with no boundaries is not going to last long.

My breeder however did give me probably the best pup for my situation (she is considered to soft and was expected to be to big for the show ring). What I have now is a lovely very happy pup who has only had a check chain on her for about 3 hours training time (at 6 months old) and who most people tell me they want to take her home

The biggest rotti forum on the web is all in favour of the prong collar to stop the dog pulling, lunging and unwanted behaviour, there general impression is that training should be 80 - 90 % positive and the rest punitive. I hope that I never need that last part, although I have come close to it (another post on which is on here) but not yet.

I think that for me the rotti is the best dog, (I have tried to look at others and there is a thread on here asking advice on a few other breeds). However much I like the husky, GSD, retrievers etc I will never be able to have one as my partner is allergic to nearly all dogs.

 

I don't think the prong collar is all that effective of a tool for someone of my size holding onto a 110 lb dog who is lunging. I've found that the gentle leader is a much better tool, I can control their head and muzzle. For a 100 lb girl a prong collar is not a useful or practical tool. I've seen dogs come into class wearing a prong collar STILL pulling. There are some pretty hard headed dogs out there with some pretty thick skin. I don't know what rotti forum you're talking about but I know of a lot of forums who think Cesar Millan is the best trainer ever too, I don't agree. I'm not saying I wouldn't like the forum you're on or don't agree with anything they say there, I just don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog there should be a formula to training them like 80/20. I think training needs to be 100% positive, even in setting your boundaries, they don't have to be "bad" boundaries. If for whatever reason 100% positive training has not worked for you for quite some time, then I would say you could resort to other things. But a citronella spray collar on a low setting is far more effective than a prong collar in the stopping of lunging. I was told to use a citronella collar on my fearful aggressive dog Indi, it certainly didn't help her any in feeling more comfortable around dogs, but it did stop her from lunging. After two sprays she was too scared to move. Needless to say I refuse to put it on her as it didn't help either of us at all and I felt terrible for days afterward. :| For dogs who are fear aggressive and lunging I don't think there's any place at all for corrective things like electric collars, spray collars, or prong collars. A prong collar is just a nagging tool to a lot of dogs, from what I've seen you don't need nearly as many corrections with a spray collar than you do with a prong collar. Why then would you put a tool into use that takes longer and could possibly do more harm than good? I'm not fond of prong collars in the least or electric collars for that matter and I wouldn't ever use them on my dogs or a client's dog. I think there's a place for the spray collar and that's only in SERIOUS behavioral problems that are not making ANY progress. If you're seeing progress in reward based training, albeit it being slow, continue, have patience, why resort to using something negative to train your dog when you're still able to move forward? That being said there isn't really a place for prongs, electrics, or sprays in teaching a dog not to pull. At the end of the day, it's your dog, you decide what you want to put around his or her neck.

From what I can tell you're a wonderful well informed owner so I'm positive you'll be able to pick whatever is right for your situation with you and your dog. I'm happy to hear you haven't had to resort to punishment in your training yet. I think that definitely says you're on the right track - don't veer! :] I think you're a completely capable owner and trainer and can pick out whatever works for you and your pup. At the end of the day it's your decision, but I think you're doing something right if your dog isn't "dysfunctional"

Then again, I have a "dysfunctional" dog, she was born that way, not much I can do about it but work with her. Indi has aggression that is most likely genetically based, if nurture overpowered nature I'd probably have the best dog in the world right now...But it doesn't always, so I think training is sort of a "know thy dog" and "know thy tools" sort of thing. You've got to pick and choose for each individual.

 

The problem with tools like that is not the tool, it's the person using the tool. If someone is going to rely solely on the prong collar or shock collar to train their dog, then they will have to have that on the dog for the rest of the dog's life. It CAN be an effective way to train a dog, I'm not talking about tricks...it is ridiculous to use those methods to teach a dog a trick...in fact, I'd call it stupid.

But, there are times when a prong collar or electric collar can be for good. Not a lot, but there are times.

If someone uses a prong collar, for example, to get their dog to stop pulling and that's all they use, then they are not training their dog, they are just hurting their dog. They need to be training, as well, which is usually the ways that many people are taught to train, (the several, various ways), to teach their dog to heel or stop pulling on the leash. So, in that case, the prong collar is pointless. Just use a regular collar and train the dog.

In my case, I have used an e-collar. The reason? Where I live. Alligators. One chance. No other chances. I'm not going to have my dog run up to an alligator and be eaten just because someone might take issue with an e-collar. Take issue, I don't care, I'll still have my dog.

I have been told to train them like I would a road with cars. Ridiculous. I know where the cars are, I have a point where I can designate the dog to stop. I can train them around a parked car, a slow moving car, etc.

I can do none of these things around alligators.

I've been told to take my dogs elsewhere to walk and run and train. How many people are willing to get in to their cars and drive 30 miles every single time the dog has to use the bathroom? Serious question because I'm not. That doesn't make me a "lazy dog owner", it's reality.

I brought the dogs to where I work and introduced them to alligators in a pen. (The dogs weren't inside the pen, they were outside the fence, looking in.) They growled, barked, backed up, got their hackles up, were as menacing as could be and did not want a thing to do with these animals. Good!

Within 5 minutes, I brought them near the water's edge. (Not close enough to be attacked but close enough to see.) They were more interested in the birds flying around than looking at the alligator in the water who was most certainly looking at them. I finally got them to see the gator and they reacted the complete opposite way that they did at the enclosure.

They were curious, ears perked up, trying to lunge at the gator. They only get one chance. And it doesn't matter if my dog is on a leash, gator might not attack me but it has zero problems going after my dog and snapping it right off the leash leaving me with a partial leash. (This has actually happened.)

So...I got an e-collar. If they get too close to the water's edge, I will call them back. I use voice and a clicker, (treats included if they come back). If they turn to look at me, I mark it. If they start towards me when I call them back, I mark it. I give them a treat and lots of praise when they get back to me.

If they don't? Guess what. Because they get ONE chance. They need to learn that there are certain areas they most certainly do NOT go near and when/if we do see an alligator while we are out, exercising, I don't have the luxury of "trying it again" if they don't listen.

I can do recall until the cows come home but if we are out and they run to the bush to do their business and there's an alligator close by, they need to know, GET OUT NOW. One chance. When we see an alligator, they get zapped because I DO want to make "seeing an alligator" a very negative experience for them but with me getting them back.

I have asked and asked and asked, in many places on the net if anyone has a better idea. Some people understand, some people stay silent, some people tell me I'm a lazy dog owner, I'm "abusive" (please) and all other things but offer no other solutions so until someone has a surefire way to teach them, I have to do it this way. They get ONE chance with an alligator. And an alligator can be anywhere, not just in the lake. And it's not just about "recall". It's "when they see one" no matter where or when they see it, I want them to associate it with negative so they run from it.

And frankly, I find this to be a better alternative than what my co-workers were trying to get me to do. They wanted me to put my dogs in an enclosure with an alligator, mouth taped up, but with the alligator. I guarantee you that alligator is going to try to get those dogs, mouth taped up or not. If the tape stays on, sure, they won't get bit but keep in mind that the alligator's tail is 75% muscle and it can break limbs if it hits you. I'm not putting my dogs through that. I think an e-collar is more humane than that approach.

 

I used a prong collar to train Millie to heal. I did not use the prong to teach her loose leash walking, though. Also, I no longer need to use the prong because it was effective, she learned, and she transferred what I taught her to everyday situations. A prong collar is a useful tool, is not harmful if used properly, and can be successfully stopped without the dog reverting to pulling.

 

Wonder - This is my first post in this thread. I thought I would say this and that would be that. Instead the wolves have come a runnin'.

I agree. If a prong collar has to be continually used it is not being used properly. That is why a prong is IMO not appropriate for Henry. But it was appropriate for Millie because it worked and it is no longer used.

 

1. I did not say that a prong collar does not work if used properly.
2. I don't agree with the use of prong collars for teaching heeling; glad it worked for you, I just think you could have trained it another way that does not involve aversive methods. You could have.
3. I will disagree with you that it is not harmful if used properly. If it wasn't harmful then would it work? I mean seriously, that's a bit of a ridiculous statement that it isn't harmful. It can most definitely be harmful to the psyche and relationship between you and your dog.

SerenityFL
I never said an e-collar is not effective. It is an effective tool at extinguishing behaviors, and if there were alligators in my area I would do the same training you did. I agree that with life threatening things where it only takes one shot for your dog to die - like being attacked by an alligator or snake proofing your dog, then it is acceptable to use something as severe as an e-collar.

 

CavePaws, I guess it depends on what you use to define harmful. Let's say Millie gets a correction. What happens? Her tail wags, she prances, she focuses on me. She heels like the most enthusiastic poodle I have ever seen. She gets EXCITED and even more eager to do what I ask. How exactly is this harmful?

Sure, I could have used purely positive methods. But the results I had using purely positive were simply that she learned what I asked, did it most of the time, but she was not 100% reliable. I want my dog to do what I say, when I say it, simply because I asked her to do it. For us, the prong collar was the most effective and quickest way to achieve this. And I promise, my poodle is not any worse off, physically or mentally, after having been trained using a prong collar than your dogs are after using only purely positive methods. :smile:

 

She is more excited than if she were to recieve praise and a treat? I think you're probably missing hidden body language, at the moment of your correction I'm willing to bet she does do something which shows displeasure in some way. So tell me then how is the prong collar an effective tool and how was she learning if she was not associating something unpleasant with the correction? I feel like you're missing the point of what aversive training is and what an aversive tool is.

I do view it as harmful, you are inflicting some form of pain or displeasure on your dog because she doesn't know what you want.


What I am saying is that you can acheive everything you want with positive methods, BrownieM. Maybe she isn't any worse off mentally in your opinion afterwards, but I strongly disagree with all my heart that she is better off than my dogs or she would be if you were using treats and praise My dogs do what I say when I say it and I use treats and praise to acheive this, I phase them out eventually and no I don't rely on treats throughout the entire training process..Part of training is to only repeat you command once as to not dilute the command because there is a difference between "Sit, Sit, Sit" in a dogs head and just "Sit."

 

She is more excited than if she were to recieve praise and a treat? I think you're probably missing hidden body language, at the moment of your correction I'm willing to bet she does do something which shows displeasure in some way. So tell me then how is the prong collar an effective tool and how was she learning if she was not associating something unpleasant with the correction? I feel like you're missing the point of what aversive training is and what an aversive tool is.

I do view it as harmful, you are inflicting some form of pain or displeasure on your dog because she doesn't know what you want.

Your argument would be true if I was correcting my dog before making sure she understood what was asked of her. It is quite the contrary. I do not use corrections until I am confident my dog knows what I am asking. Then, the corrections are used because she has a tendency to decide she doesn't always want to do what I say. That is the key to using corrections properly. It is never fair to correct a dog who doesn't understand what you are asking. I don't think any good trainer would ever suggest doing that. New behaviors and actions are always introduced positively and successfully carrying out actions and behaviors are always reinforced with the greatest party, treat, woo hoo! possible.

Also, I am not missing any body language clues between her excitement level and eagerness when I am training with a clicker and treats vs. a prong collar. I wish you could see the difference in this girl when you only reinforce with treats/clicker OR when you do both praising with treats and correcting with prong collar. The tail wagging, looking at me right in the eye, showing off her poodle prance, etc. does NOT happen when I am only using treats and a clicker. She does not become "loaded" from purely positive training.

I'll say it again. A prong collar really is not harmful if used properly. If you use it right it only delivers a slight pinch. Have you ever put one on? Tried it to see how it feels? It's really not that bad. If I am harming her so badly, why does she not run away at the sight of a prong collar? When I was still using the prong collar and I would take it out of the drawer, she would get excited and walk up to me, stretching out her head so I can put it on. Wouldn't you expect a bit more of a negative response if I were harming my dog? I guarantee it is far more bothersome for her to sit for an hour or two while I brush her long coat, bathe her and then use the dryer to straighten her coat.

Anyway, I don't have the energy to argue about this anymore. It has been beaten to death on this forum. Some people believe in purely positive and some people believe in a more comprehensive approach, including both positive praise and corrections. I honestly respect someone's decision to use purely positive methods and I think it is an effective tool. I also think that using a prong collar properly is an effective tool and it does not deserve nearly the horrible reputation that it has among the purely positive training method believers.

 

I think it does deserve it's reputation, but that's me. I'm perfectly fine with your using a prong collar, we are not the same person and that is your dog and your opinion. But when someone is paying me for my time as a trainer I'm not going to use a prong collar to teach a dog anything and I won't allow a client to use one on my time. I also will strongly advise someone not to use one if they ask if I think it's an acceptable tool to use. As I said there are so many other tools you can use now to teach these things and if you're teaching it properly or putting enough time and effort into it you don't even need the crutch.

It delivers a slight pinch. It is in a way painful obviously or else it would not work.

 

I just wrote a reply and it disappeared. Let me try this again.

I was saying that some tools are affective and it's the people who abuse these tools that give us who use them properly, a bad name. There is a stigma towards those people and I don't think it's entirely fair.

I think people should train their dogs in a way that works on the dog. Not all methods work on all dogs. The all positive, all the time approach does not work on all dogs. It simply does not. So find what does work and as long as you aren't abusing the tool or the dog, it's fine.

I use the e-collar sometimes. I have tried it on myself on the same setting I have it on for the dogs. The e-collar gets a very bad name. People loathe the thing. And I get a lot of flak because I use one. On level 1, the lowest setting, it was a shock more than pain. I got a shock once on accident and then I did it on purpose just to see if my reaction would be different. It wasn't, it was not painful, really, it was a shock. It was not debilitating or anything worse than walking along the carpet in socks and touching something metal. If that's what it takes to get my dogs' attention when I want them away from the edge of the water, that's what I'm going to use. The calling and coaxing and all positive doesn't work on them.

Using a prong collar doesn't mean one has to yank back on it as hard as possible. A slight tug can give the slightest pinch and gets the dogs attention. If the dog were in pain, it wouldn't be wagging its tail, eager to perform another trick or stunt or whatever. And Brownie is right, if it were that bad, the dog would try to avoid it. I didn't have that issue with putting on the e-collar on my dogs either. If it were so bad, they would cower down when I put that thing on. They don't.

And she is also right that these things should be used as corrections, not "here's how I want you to walk" training sessions. A dog absolutely must know what you want of it before you can ever correct. She's right, it's unfair, otherwise. You should never correct unless you know, 100%, that the dog knows exactly what you want when you tell it. It's when they know and have decided that today they aren't feeling like it or are testing you or just ignore you, these tools are affective. Using them to teach the dog HOW to heel and walk, no, I don't agree with because the dog doesn't even know what you want, yet. And that's what she said, she uses it to correct. But her dog already knows what she's supposed to do.

Anyway, people should find what works for them and their dog as long as it isn't inflicting pain and trauma which I do not believe an e-collar or prong collar do if used correctly. Like I said, I tried it out on myself TWICE. I wonder how many people have done this.

What does matter is that we train our dogs. And when they know what we want, we must reinforce and that sometimes means corrections. Every one has their way of doing it. As long as the dog is not being abused or beaten or screamed at, I see no problem with positive methods, corrective methods, using tools.

 

I think that the same could be said for positive reinforcement. People don't always know how to use it at the precise time and the correct way. So they get discouraged when it doesn't work, which then they go to other more corrective methods like prong collars. They see results because the dog learns they will be corrected, not a pleasant experience- the dog will never ask to be corrected just for fun. Or they see huge progress with positive reinforcement and then skip steps, which sets their dog back. People do this all the time...I do it all the time. The thing to realize is when you've skipped a step or misused positive reinforcement, go back and revise it or fix your own methods.

Positive reinforcement *when used right* works on every dog. Its just a matter of finding the right/appropriate kind of positive reinforcer for the dog/context.

BUT like I advised SerenityFL...there's a RARE time and place for something like an e-collar. Her alligator situation is one of them. Right now...I can't think of another except maybe rattle snakes or something.

BrownieM, I just want to clarify that a wagging tail doesn't show signs of a happy dog. Its the sign of arousal. Its a matter of what the stimulus is. She may be wagging her tail happily and excitedly when you get the prong collar out not because of the physical object...but rather the activity that goes along with it. And you're absolutely right, you haven't taught her that the collar CAN inflict real pain if you yank hard enough, which is awesome. If you had, she would learn to run away from you when you get that thing out. Most people I see with prong collars on their dogs are yanking, yanking and YANKING their dogs....which with each consecutive yank, the dog loses that much more interest and respect for their owner. I respect that you didn't let your human instinct kick in and take over!

Most great trainers these days will never recommend a prong collar. Walking loose on leash OR heeling is easy enough to train positively, which enhances the bond between dog and their human. Research has shown that positive reinforcement training works faster with animals than any other method across the boards/species/world. Corrective training techniques only slow the process making learning more difficult. From all the books I'm reading for my class make things in my own head click...I highly, highly recommend these books to all dog owners. They are all definitely must reads!

ANY book by:

Patricia McConnell PhD (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: The Other End of the Leash eBook: Patricia McConnell Phd: Kindle Store

Karen Pryor (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: Don't Shoot the Dog!: The New Art of Teaching and Training (9780553380392): Karen Pryor: Books

Jean Donaldson (the one below is her best IMO)

Amazon.com: The Culture Clash: A Revolutionary New Way to Understanding the Relationship Between Humans and Domestic Dogs (9781888047059): Jean Donaldson: Books

 

Natalie touched on all the points I would have. I think anything I could say would just be a repeat of what she said.:smile:

 

I know that "IF" I were to use a prong collar on Duncan it would not be affective. First off Duncan has a lot of hair and he weighs near 100 pounds. He is very strong and I'm not even sure I would physically be able to deliver a "proper" correction that would get Duncan's attention. I much, much prefer to use positive reinforcement methods. It is much easier on me to use the tree method (or another positive method) when he pulls then trying to give him a harsh correction, plus it's much more affective for Duncan.

With a dog as big as Duncan harsh corrections are out of the question as far as I'm concerned. With a dog as old as Lucky, harsh corrections are out of the question. With a puppy as young as our new pup will be, harsh corrections are out of the question. Positive reinforcement methods are much more affective, imo and I find that when I use them I am a much more happy and positive leader when I work with my dogs. When we are training I feel that Duncan is working out of respect and because he wants to please me and it's fun...not because he is worried about a hard pull on a prong collar.

Just my 2 cents! :tongue:

 

Well, I have to admit I use a prong collar too, sometimes. But, my reason is a bit different and if anyone has any suggestions on how to manage it I'd be very, very willing to listen.
My husband is very unsteady on his feet. He's not old, he has health problems. Now and then, every 3 weeks or so, he likes to walk (hobble) with our dog, 40lb cattle dog x. Thats when I put the prong on her. There's just no way I can take the risk that he will fall. If he hits his head, its curtains for him. We are really dealing with a persons life here. So, rightly or wrongly, as his caregiver, I have to ensure that there is absoltuely no way he can be taken by surprise with her suddenly taking it into her head to lunge after a squirrel.
I know its not the right way, but put in perspective, its the way I have to handle it right now.

 

Great..that's what a I get for asking a question in my last post. I get a response that I can't help but respond to :doh:

So the problem is the owner, in that situation, not the tool...

And, BTW, I just went again and put on our prong collar. Jerked it pretty quickly and with more pressure than I have ever "jerked" my dog. It did not even pinch me - it just applied pressure. That was on my bare skin. I can only imagine it is even less painful on a dog with 8 inches of neck hair...

Barbaric? Those are the claims that turn people off. Sure, it's not purely positive! Sure, my dog wouldn't choose to have pressure applied to her neck. But, there's a lot of things she would choose not to do that I make her do. (Get in the car, sit on the grooming table, stay in her crate when company is visiting, etc.)

Yes, the dog probably doesn't enjoy having pressure around it's neck. But it's hardly going to actually hurt unless you are using it improperly and yanking or jerking with it.

 

So the problem is the owner, in that situation, not the tool...

No the tool is barbaric as i stated above, especially with short haired breeds, would you use one on a toddler you wanted to keep under control?

and, BTW, I just went again and put on our prong collar. Jerked it pretty quickly and with more pressure than I have ever "jerked" my dog. It did not even pinch me - it just applied pressure. That was on my bare skin. I can only imagine it is even less painful on a dog with 8 inches of neck hair...

Barbaric? Those are the claims that turn people off. Sure, it's not purely positive! Sure, my dog wouldn't choose to have pressure applied to her neck. But, there's a lot of things she would choose not to do that I make her do. (Get in the car, sit on the grooming table, stay in her crate when company is visiting, etc.)

Yes, the dog probably doesn't enjoy having pressure around it's neck. But it's hardly going to actually hurt unless you are using it improperly and yanking or jerking with it.

So you were expecting the quick jerk or did you walk around with it and have somebody unexpectedly yank on it? because i'm quite sure there would be a difference in the two.

So why can't you use a positive type of reinforcement instead of something that is uncomfortable for your animal? i could use all kinds of harmful methods on my animal because he is out of control sometimes, but that is the challenge and fun in owning such a high strung dog because when he sits and stays when there is a dog in front of him or new people introduced to him and all i used was a tiny fingernail piece of food instead of fear it makes me very proud as an owner.

Again, i will say, probably 90% of the ********, and retards that go into a pet superstore and purchase a prong or choke for their animal are untrained in the device and probably "think" they know what they are doing.

 

I've never had a short haired breed and never will (allergies) so I have never seen how they would react to it...Maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't. It all depends on how the dog responds. If a dog is shutting down, then no, I'm not going to use it.

Let's not compare toddlers to dogs. Dogs are not humans and the humanizing of dogs is a dangerous thing...

 

Well, I have to admit I use a prong collar too, sometimes. But, my reason is a bit different and if anyone has any suggestions on how to manage it I'd be very, very willing to listen.
My husband is very unsteady on his feet. He's not old, he has health problems. Now and then, every 3 weeks or so, he likes to walk (hobble) with our dog, 40lb cattle dog x. Thats when I put the prong on her. There's just no way I can take the risk that he will fall. If he hits his head, its curtains for him. We are really dealing with a persons life here. So, rightly or wrongly, as his caregiver, I have to ensure that there is absoltuely no way he can be taken by surprise with her suddenly taking it into her head to lunge after a squirrel.
I know its not the right way, but put in perspective, its the way I have to handle it right now.

MollyWoppy, have you tried these tools? I think they would be able to replace the prong collar and work just as well for reassurance for your husband if he knows how to use them correctly.

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IMO, the gentle leader is going to be just as much reassurance to him than a prong collar might be or an easy walker which was the second one I listed. The gentle leader is the one that goes over your dogs muzzle, it gives you exceptional control over your dogs head. IF your dog were to try to jut forward they would be brought down and to the side towards you because of all of that forward motion and the way the gentle leader is hooked up. I would suggest doing distraction training, slowly moving from place to place to generalize it and while in each new setting start from square one with the least distracting thing possible and moving up to the most distracting thing possible. I would like to see you getting 100% success with the most distracting thing possible before we put the leash in your husbands hands. With him, slowly work up to the highest level of distraction, but do all this in even smaller steps than you did to work up to that level with yourself.

Another exercise you can do is "posting" to work on how she reacts to high distraction levels where she -really- wants to get to whatever it is she can't reach. What you do is find something like a tree, post, or furniture which can hold her in place, give her about a body lengths worth of leash to work on so she isn't twisting herself up and start the distracting. She will realize she is getting nowhere and nothing whenever she is pulling soon enough. Whenever you see her stop pulling give her a treat between her paws or from your hand, praise, and love on her. This might be a good prelude for your husband to work on control with her. Don't make her stay while posting, as you are trying to give her the option to pull or not to pull towards that distraction during posting - you want her to make the choice knowingly, and learn the outcomes for both.

I hope this works. If the prong collar is what gives you the most reassurance that your husbands life is safe then use it. When someone's life is in danger I think some things are a little more acceptable than they are if you're just using them for whatever/whenever.


BrownieM - I couldn't disagree more with what you are saying as far as it not being harmful. Using it to train or even using it regularly for corrections is harmful in many aspects to your dogs psyche whether you'd like to admit it or not.

 

BrownieM - I couldn't disagree more with what you are saying as far as it not being harmful. Using it to train or even using it regularly for corrections is harmful in many aspects to your dogs psyche whether you'd like to admit it or not.

CavePaws, I know you disagree with me. You've made that tremendously clear.

Would you like to come analyze my dog's psyche? I guarantee her psyche is grander than yours.

Telling me my dog's psyche has been damaged is just about the last way to get me to take you seriously or have any respect for what you have to say. I think you need to rethink your approach and the way you speak to people if you wish to be listened to. Not to mention, I have a hard time taking someone's advice whose mind is closed.