I'm becoming iffy on this. I used to think grain-free was the way to go with kibble and I still don't believe dogs need grains but I also don't think peas and potatoes are a whole lot better than oatmeal and rice.

I guess it's just what you are comfortable with. I still prefer most grain-free formulas than not but I am not sure it's as important or hyped up as it's made to be.

 

what about tapioca?

 

We switched to grain free for the higher protein content. They also tend to be higher in calories, which is good for extremely active dogs like our GSP. (Also translates to feeding LESS of that particular food.)

As for which one to try, there are multiple threads already here on the Board... just do a search.

Bonne chance,

 

I dont necessarily think that potatoes are any better then grains, but thats not why I feed the food, most grain inclusive kibble is 23-26% protein vs 30% and up in grain free. I feed it because of higher meat content. But its really a personal choice, some dogs do better on grain inclusive and vice versa. I noticed a difference when I switched to grain free, more muscle tone, shinier and healhier coat, no ear infections, lots of energy.

 

I don't think grains are a problem as long as they are quality grains. I completely agree with what has been said about white potatoes being no better than good grains. I do understand the argument for grain free based on its higher meat content. But not all dogs tolerate high protein kibble well; my dog had problems on really high protein grain free. I currently feed grain inclusive foods, but I also supplement with canned food and raw eggs for added meat content. But some dogs do very well on a high protein grain free diet, it really comes down to what your dog does best on. There are a lot of different factors to look at when choosing a food, and grain vs. no grain is just one of them.

 

I agree, when I fed kibble my danes both lost a ton of weight on grain free kibble.

 

NO starch is natural for a dog. The most important thing would be meat content, and the best starch is that which is low on the GI scale- I think sweet potatoes are good, white/russet not as much so.

 

Tapioca provides another alternative for the binding carb in grain-free food. It's primarily a non-gluten starch with next to no protein. So when you look at a formula containing tapioca, you know that the protein is pretty much coming from the listed meat sources. Some dogs don't do well with potatoes; and I've never heard of any intolerance problems with tapioca.

 

The idea of grain free is that they are trying to add in as much animal protein as possible. Dogs are carnivores so no grain/starch is appropriate but they are needed to bind kibble together. Basically it's just finding what enables the most amount of meat, and least amount of everything else.

 

I'm less into grain free because I think grains are horrible for Dogs.

Moreso, I think grain free foods are just better, with more meat and protein. Thats why I feed grain free. I'm lost on whether or not grains/carbs are awful for Dogs. I've read both arguments and cannot come to an absolute conclusion.

 

I questioned this for a long time, and honestly I don't think that a food being grain free in and of itself makes it superior.

Grains are common allergens, so of course for any dog experiencing allergies grain free formulas will be strong contenders in what to try next. But, aside from that.... I have a couple qualms with the whole grain free bandwagon.
I won't deny that it is pretty obvious that Orijen and Evo have higher meat content than any other food that comes to mind BUT... there are several grain inclusive foods in which the first few ingredients are meat. Canidae ALS comes to mind. On the other hand, there are plenty of grain free foods with only one meat ingredient listed followed by a million different kinds of potato. In that respect, I think a few grain inclusive foods ARE better than some grain free.

Also, on the protein issue. A natural whole foods diet for a carnivore is going to be somewhere between 18-28% protein. For that reason, I don't think that unnaturally high protein content should be a deciding factor in WHY to go with grain free. Sure, there's a strong chance that most of that protein comes from meat sources but you simply can NOT guarantee.

I sell a lot of dog food, several thousand dollars a month of it. I am on a first name basis with a lot of my customers, and actually take the time to TALK to them when they come in.
Taste of the Wild seems to sit well with more dogs than Canidae Grain Free.
EVO is entirely hit or miss. They either do really well, or it's a train wreck. It doesn't sell fast.
Wellness flies off the shelves and people seem happy with it.
Canidae ALS is a big hit, i think it's more of a bang for the buck type thing though because for some reason even when people's dogs could be doing better- they keep buying it.
California Natural Herring.... easily our highest rated food from the people who buy it. I can not even begin to tell you how many people walk in the door with so many allergy and diarrhea issues that this food has helped. They also look excellent on it. On paper it's not my favorite, but I can't deny the results I've seen people get with it.

I just don't find potato and peas any better than rice. And really, by the time it makes it to the food bowl, it's all so processed to the point of hardly even resembling the ingredients claimed on the bag- I'm not so sure it matters WHAT the starch supply is. In reality, you have NO idea how much meat is in your kibble. You have NO idea what percent of the total food each ingredient makes up. You have NO idea how much of that "chicken meal" is actually chicken. There are far too many unknown variables in processed commercial foods for me to put much worry into a rice vs. potato debate. They're both bad. They're both inappropriate. They're both fillers.

 

Where is the data that says grains cause allergies. You are in fact dead wrong. Over 80% of allergies are caused by meat sources, eggs & dairy. Let me ask you something, you mentioned Canidae ALS because it has multiple meat sources but is just 24% protein. Is that better than a food with one meat source but is 32% protein?

I would really like to know where you come up with the idea grains cause allergies.

 

A natural whole foods diet for a carnivore is going to be somewhere between 18-28% protein. For that reason, I don't think that unnaturally high protein content should be a deciding factor in WHY to go with grain free.

Raw is water inclusive, though. If it were dehydrated like kibble it would be over 50% protein. If you add water to kibble to make it similar to raw (70%? water) then it's going to have lower protein than raw. Thats why I think that the higher the protein (meat based!!) is better in kibble.

Water SHOULD be added to kibble.

 

True, but how many people actually do that? Not many.
And even so, there's no guarantee or clue as to what comes from meat and what is vegetable protein.
SO many dang unknowns.

 

I really agree with Linsey's post.


I tend to go with grain free's because of the slightly higher meat content (but I don't really like to go over 32% protein) and I've just noticed that my dogs poops are almost always smaller on grain free's.

Abbie is on Natural Balance's chicken/lamb/rabbit Alpha formula and is doing okay on it. Not great, but okay. She was pooping way too much on their Synergy formula, which isn't grain free.

Oddly though, she did WONDERFULLY on Whole Earth Farms adult formula. Great poops. Shiny coat.

I have a coupon for a free 30lb bag of Pinnacle from a territory manager for Pinnacle I met this weekend.

After that it's back to NB, not sure what formula. None of them really are perfect to me....

 

You can usually tell by the ingredient list though if the majority of the protein comes from animal or plant based ingredients. If you compare Orijen to Ol'Roy (Just using those two to show an extreme difference).

Orijen:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh chicken liver*, fresh boneless lake whitefish*, fresh boneless walleye*, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium.

Ol'Roy:
Ground Yellow Corn, Meat and Bone Meal, Soybean Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Wheat Middlings, Animal Fat (Preserved With Bha and Citric Acid), Natural Flavor, Brewers Rice, Salt, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Color Added (Titanium Dioxide, Yellow #5, Yellow #6, Red #40, Blue #2), Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Niacin, Copper Sulfate, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (Source of Vitamin K Activity), Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Cobalt Carbonate.

The only real high protein plant ingredient in Orijen is peas, and it's pretty far down the list.

In Ol'Roy corn is not especially high in protein (about 10% on dry matter basis from what I've read, I could be wrong). Meat and bone meal is an animal source. Soybean meal is over 50% protein- I bet that's where the majority of the protein is from, soybeans and unknown animals. These are the second and third ingredients.

Even if the water is not added to the kibble, the animal will usually make up most of that in drinking later. As digestion occurs everything is kind of a slurry- it's not digested dry (obviously). I feel the only way you can compare the nutrients between raw and kibble is on a dry matter basis.

 

I need someone to explain to me what a "wheat middling" is? Please?

Its funny to see Orijen on the same screen with Old Roy. Just funny.

 

As per Wikipedia:

Wheat middlings or wheat mill run, stated by AAFCO, is coarse and fine particles of wheat bran and fine particles of wheat shorts, wheat germ, wheat flour and offal from the "tail of the mill".
Wheat middlings is an inexpensive byproduct intermediate of human food processing, commonly referred to as floor sweepings (although such products are generally captured long before they would end up on the floor). It is an inexpensive filler in pet food and a basis for manufacturing semolina. It has 96 percent of the energy value of barley and 91 percent of the energy value of corn.[1]
Due to its high energy content and low price, wheat middlings is being researched as a biofuel.[2]. A burner designed to make good use of it is the USDA-OARDC AFBC, a small scale Atmospheric Fluidized Bed Combustor.[3]; this technology originated in the 1920s in the chemical industry and was adopted by the power sector in the 1980s. Dr. Harold Keener has led the research on the OARDC-AFBC for the past twenty years, though the project lost some funding after the resolution of the energy crisis associated with the 1990 oil price shock.[4]

 

I strongly agree with most of Linsey's post #12. Her observations on the the specific brands and formulas especially seem accurate from my experience.

People searching for which kibble to try really shouldn't be primarily focused on the grain-inclusive versus grain-free issue. If your dog doesn't do well with a particular ingredient, be it chicken or potato or barley, simply look for formulas without it. There are some good and bad examples among both grain-inclusive and grain-free.

Look at the whole picture: protein/fat percentages, ingredient list, any special health issues your dog has, cost, company profile, and availability.
Then make a reasonable choice and feed it for a few months. Then assess how well your dog is doing.
And since it is very challenging to know the meat protein content, add some fresh meat/egg protein to the kibble for a little added insurance.

 

Hmm

Ok

Well I have my sr dog who has bad allergies this time a year...would not touch her TOTW the last 2 days. This morning she did finally.
My other two are doing better on it since I cut back the amount I ffed.

Here is my concern with TOTW: lots of potato could this be what is making my golden have a problem. Not sure I know she always gets allergies but she has been on the food about a month.....She at first seemed to love it at it with no problem...now not so much?

This is why I'm not sure if I should switch or not...and if so to what.

She did eat this am plus giving her benedryl...per vet before to see if that works before we have to do pred.

Right now they are on TOTW LAmb my vet wanted me to go with a lower protein not something that has 32%. My vet also only gives names like Iams, Eukenba and so on to feed. Not sure he does not believe in all the hype and those foods have been around forever.

I'm really stuck. What would you do and why?

Thanks everyone

 

I've tried TOTW several times with my cat... I've never been totally happy with the results...

My dogs had horrible digestive upset with anything grain related, even rice. Evo worked fantastic and after the P&G buyout (I did notice changes in how they did on the food, who knows if its related or not, but to suddenly be gassy and blowing coat when nothing else changed was really off and weird) went to Acana grain free. They liked Grasslands best, but it made Lily's poo overly hard. And after being on a rotation of the flavors for six months Lily's coat started getting greasy and she lost some muscle mass.

After a vet trip for constipation for Lily, I bought a box of The Honest Kitchen Force. Even with adding RMB's, meat, etc. she was still dropping muscle (though her poo issue was fixed!) and gaining fat. I finally woke the hell up one day and said to myself, wtf am I doing? She would not graze on alfalfa in the field.... she'd catch and eat a mouse! So I finally quit making excuses and went to PMR. The detox she went through during transition was disgusting, I don't know what the hell is in commercial pet foods, but whatever it is isn't good for them. She's not only gained her muscle back, she's got more than ever. And her coat is better than ever too.

I did half raw, half Acana (and later a small bag of TOTW SM) with Scout for a while. I told myself for cost reasons, but it actually cost more than full PMR does.
And all it did was upset her tummy to keep her partially on kibble. I don't know if it was specifically the TOTW, but the half n' half went fine with Acana Grasslands and then spiraled quickly downhill when I got some TOTW SM.

 

How about trying a kibble that isn't high in either potato or rice; also a more simple formula.

Take a look at:
California Natural Herring. The only potato is sweet potato which falls #7 on the ingredient list Healthy Pet Product Search ? Organic Dog Food, Dog Treats and More ? Natura Pet Products

Also look at one that's working very well for both my dogs (especially my senior golden with a number of food intolerances): Canine Caviar Chicken and Pearl Millet. Chicken And Pearl Millet Adult

Five years ago after repeated hot spots and bouts of yeasty ears my vet (no longer my vet) was suggesting to put our golden on prednisone long-term. Having seen what continued usage does to humans, I was determined to look at alternative - mainly different food choice.

 

I am liking right now Orijen the adult regular formula one, best food ever . ( well all the Orijen foods are great!)I like that its grain free and the meat content is the best, and the high protein it contains, my dogs go very well on it. Also I get Wellness Core. Right now I have the Ocean one. I have used all the Wellness Cores and have been extremely happy with these also.

 

I agree with Wags. I have to say that...

Orijen
EVO
Wellness
(I'd probably add Honest Kitchen)...

the most elite foods available in the dry aisle. There may be more but these are tops on my list.

 

orijen and evo are elite foods ..yes
but why hoenst kitchen? it is vegatable soup...used as a com suppliment to meat..so it's useless.
wellness is ok core is a good food i dont see how it's any better than totw.
go endurance and earthborn are good foods...although ive gotten bad results in 2/2 dogs from the earthborn

evo red has been a huge hit with 2/2.....the palitability on it is crazy
are dog on red meat diets prone to heart issues lie human

 

I switched to grain free because grains *can* cause inflammation in joints. Java had bilateral ACL surgeries, so wanted to eliminate that variable.
I switched both girls to TOTW to start and the results were startling. Lean, muscular, shiny coats, clear eyes, clean ears....they did lose weight and leaned right up (which is a good thing for labs).
I now rotate 4-5 different grain free foods (TOTW, Fromm, NV & Go!) and couldn't be happier with the results for my girls.

 

Thanks for all the input...still trying to decide what to do.

My golden is the one I have issues with...but vet says it is allergies....this time of year.

Doing TOTW right now but still not sure that is the right choice for all three dogs?

 

totw is leaps and bounds better than most foods. i wouldn't feel bad about feeding it. winston hated it though..he loves evo red meat though
stupid dog

 

how come they can't make high meat content foods using brown rice as the binder?

 

The dog food companies most certainly could manufacture a high meat protein kibble using a grain like brown rice or millet (both better in my book than white potato).

However, that's not where the money is. The big marketing strategy for the $ is the "grain-free" concept. It's so easy to tout: "grain-free and high protein" on a bag and in print. It's much less easy to explain that a food may be great because it has high protein and a "really good grain". It would take a lot of education for some of the public to distinguish between brewer's rice oand corn versus brown rice, quinoa or millet.

 

I can honestly say Grain free seems a safer choice. I know my breed of choice is plagued by skin allergy issues and grains in food are a HUGE trigger.

 

Slayer- does your particular dog have allergies? I've noticed that as well... pits having skin problems. The neighbor's has had a few skin cancers removed and she is allergic to a few things. Potato being one of them so most grain free foods are out.

Most all grain free foods are higher in meat content than grain ones- Canidae ALS is pretty good as well as a few others- but for the most part, grain free is the way to go.

There are some lower quality foods jumping on the bandwagon- Nutro for example. Venison and potato formula-

Venison Meal, Dried Potatoes, Potato Starch, Potato Protein, Pea Protein, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Powdered Cellulose, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Potassium Iodide, Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Selenium, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract.

So as always... reading the label is the way to go. :wink:

 

Slayer- does your particular dog have allergies? I've noticed that as well... pits having skin problems. The neighbor's has had a few skin cancers removed and she is allergic to a few things. Potato being one of them so most grain free foods are out.

Most all grain free foods are higher in meat content than grain ones- Canidae ALS is pretty good as well as a few others- but for the most part, grain free is the way to go.

There are some lower quality foods jumping on the bandwagon- Nutro for example. Venison and potato formula-



Venison Meal, Dried Potatoes, Potato Starch, Potato Protein, Pea Protein, Sunflower Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Dried Plain Beet Pulp, Natural Flavors, Flaxseed, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Powdered Cellulose, Choline Chloride, Zinc Sulfate, Taurine, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Potassium Iodide, Copper Sulfate, L-Carnitine, Niacin Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Selenium, Vitamin A Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Rosemary Extract.

So as always... reading the label is the way to go. :wink:

Wow - the ingredient list for Nutro Venison and Potato formula is eye-opening. Once you add the dried potatoes, potato starch, potato protein and pea protein all together; I'm sure they are a much higher percentage than the venison meal.

I no longer think "grain-free" is the automatic default way to go - unless a dog has an allergy/intolerance to all grains. I've seen some better grain-inclusive formulas. than some of the poorly formulated grain free foods, that make a great base formula. Simply add some extra fresh protein on top and you have a healthier overall meal without paying the higher price of some of the grain-frees.