Just out of curiosity, WHY would you want to include grains in your carnivores diet?

 

I never said I wanted to....

I thought the general consensus here (or among some members) was that some dogs just DON'T do well on a grain free food? Hence, my question on what are the best kibbles that are grain inclusive...

 

id say canidae is a good grained food,although its still grained...

if you want a grain free food for price,taste of the wild is only slightly more than most of the top grained foods out there so id say go for that. the best grained food is lliek the best disease...its still the ebst of the worst...and id rather have the worst of the best(TOTW) anywday.

 

Unfortunately commercial pet food makers have included grain in the majority of dry kibbles out there. personally, i do not feed my dogs a kibble that has grain, but if i were to make a decision as to which kibble that includes grain would i feed my pooch it would be the Fromm Gold series, Fromm Adult GOLD I like the company mainly because it does not share plants with other companies, it is a family owned business and operated for over 70 years (i think) and the ingredients are decent, in addition, the grain ingredients arent till 4th or 5th on the list. Again, my pooches get grain-free food, but if i had to switch them over it would most probably be Fromm.

 

Adding grain to your dogs diet is the worst thing you could do aside from feeding them sawdust.

 

Well, that's a bit dramatic, isn't it? :tongue:

I dunno, I think there's a lot of great foods, and for the most part, I'm behind the grain free "movement" but I've seen dozens upon dozens of dogs thrive and be healthy and beautiful on a grain inclusive diet. I feed my dogs the grain free Acana, so it's not like I am feeding a grain inclusive food.

I would love to hear some serious and on topic answers though...

 

I like Jon's opinions and think he's pretty on with his advice...

but I'd agree that it the same as "eating sawdust" is a bit extreme.


to answer your question...Acana non grain free, Innova, Cal Natural, Castor Pollux Organix(believe its grain inclusive)....would be my recommendations.

I'm not sure where I stand on the "Dogs should only have meat" debate. I've read both sides and without having my own University Study, I'm not sure who the hell to believe. That being said, I do feed grain free.

I think one mistake people make(at least I did in the beginning) is that we equate "grain free" w/ no carbs. Hardly the case. Not even close.

 

I'm not sure where I stand on the "Dogs should only have meat" debate. I've read both sides and without having my own University Study, I'm not sure who the hell to believe. That being said, I do feed grain free.

You don't need a university study. You look to nature and 1,000,000 years of evolution.

I think one mistake people make(at least I did in the beginning) is that we equate "grain free" w/ no carbs. Hardly the case. Not even close.

No matter what canine nutritional book you look at, you won't find a Minimum Daily Requirement or will you find a Recommended Daily Allowance for carbs for canines.

I better slip away before I get in trouble. :smile:

 

My dog did very well on the Fromm 4 Star varieties, and like others have said, I like the company's philosophies and practices.

I'm really wavering in the grain-free issue, too, and thought about going back to these foods as I took TOTW out of the line-up. I chose Acana grain-free based a lot on opinions here.

 

I really like Acana, but boy, is it a pain in the butt to get where I'm going to be living lol. That and the cost concerns me. I'm not the one paying for it, my mother is, and her dog (boxer) eats TOTW, so I feel kinda crappy giving my dogs a higher quality kibble on her dime.

 

I'm thinking we will soon see the grain inclusive line of Orijen.

 

Not sure why they would do this -- seems like it could cause some confusion and cheapen the perception of their product line. Still, as long as it doesn't change or cheapen their grain-free formulas, I suppose there's no harm in it.

 

Rocky did very well on Innova Large Breed Puppy and Chelsy did well on Innova Senior Plus which is the only one that had extra B vitamins for her neurological problems.

I also think Chicken Soup is not a bad grain inclusive food for the price if you are looking in that range. I know people hate Diamond products, but it really isn't a bad quality food considering ingredients only and if you want a lower price item.

Chicken, turkey, chicken meal, ocean fish meal, cracked pearled barley, whole grain brown rice, oatmeal, millet, white rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), potatoes, egg product, tomato pomace, duck, salmon, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, kelp, carrots, peas, apples, tomatoes, blueberries, spinach, dried skim milk, cranberry powder, rosemary extract, parsley flake, yucca schidigera extract,

 

Orijen already has a grain inclusive line in Canada and apparantly else where but not in the U.S, My specialty store that only carried Natura and Champion products is keeping his customers abreast of this info as he has totally gotten rid of all Natura products, he hasn't found a co. that met his needs as far as his standards and that is why he is really trying to get the grain inclusive line.

 

i assume you are talking about the Acana grain inclusive line? champion makes nothing in any markets that is grain inclusive under the orijen name.

 

2 aspects of the "DOGS ONLY NEED MEAT" debate that confuse the hell out of me....

1. "Dogs have no use for carbs. They provide nothing for them." This confuses me. I've seen Dogs get fat as hell on high carbs/high grain foods. They must be using something in that bag.

2. "Dogs only eat meat in the wild." Maybe. I guess. I would say they probably eat more than just meat....but even if they do...who's to say they can't utilize carbs/grains in some way? Is it POSSIBLE?


I'm not saying Meat isn't ideal for our Dogs. Mine are doing outstanding on grain free food(Acana currently). I just struggle with the extreme stance that grains/carbs provide NOTHING for dogs. They must provide SOMETHING for them.

I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.

 

I read alot of stuff(in many topics)...and I've read some outstanding writing on the "Dogs only need meat" stance. But I've also seen writing that comes from top VET schools around the country claim that Dogs can and do utilize carbs and grains. Hell, even the "Corn is horrible" debate is controversial. At worst, many say that corn is pretty harmless for Dogs...admittedly not GOOD for them and shouldn't be the #1 ingredient but nowhere near the Demon that some us make it out to be.

Again, ALL that being said....I err on the Grain Free side...no doubt. I just have some questions/doubts in my head.

Corn (like wheat) is fairly "empty" for dogs and causes allergies in quite a few dogs. (I think it's become pretty obvious that our dog has some skin allergies caused by these grains, as eliminating them has almost entirely eliminated the "hot spots" on her underside.) If there are no allergies in a dog, at most these are calories that don't provide much nutrition, but likely not harmful.

The problem with articles by vets extolling the virtues of grains for dogs is that too many vets have been compromised (dare I say "corrupted"?) by being in bed with Big Pet Food. (Why else would so many vets sell Hills and that sort of thing?) So I have to take their words with a grain (no pun intended) of salt. Or several.

I would tend to agree with the "dogs only need meat" position, but I would also add that a mostly meat diet with some carbs from non-grain sources like fruits and vegetables isn't harmful. And for most people who can't or won't feed raw, since you can't get 100% meat in a convenient dry kibble, some carbs from plant matter are inevitable.

 

I have fed 4-health dog food from tractor supply. it has grain, but no corn, wheat or soy. my dogs do okay on it. although it is VERY similar to the diamond naturals line of dog foods, my dogs did better on diamond naturals.

also chicken soup is a decent grain inclusive dog food. and blue buffalo.

i have not used chicken soup or blue buffalo, but they do look like something i would feed. (but not with blue buffalos price tag!) i feel like paying that price for blue buffalo that has a quite a bit a grains in it is a bit silly.

right now we are in a tight spot and that is the only reason my guys are on grain inclusive kibble.

 

Grains are typically not as bioavailable to a dog as potato starch which is found in grain free foods. It's harder for dogs to break grains down and get little nutrition from them. They are commonly irritants to the bowel and cause allergies in dogs. They are a cheap filler for dog foods. Although potatoes are not much more nutritionally available to dogs, they are a "higher quality" ingredient.

A lot of dogs don't do well on grain free foods because they are simply getting to much to eat. Portion control on grain free foods needs to happen because people don't think about feeding their dog half of what they normally get on grain free. Intolerance to grain free foods is also a possibility but that can go for any food available and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what the dog is having a reaction to.

As far as the "dogs need meat and nothing but" arguement, it is true that dogs CAN survive on a carb ridden diet, but who's to say that is ideal? Dogs can also survive on a carb exclusive diet, but who's to say that's ideal either? It's all perception and opinion when it comes down this arguement. I just look at the visual proof that I see when feeding a grain exclusive diet compared to how my dogs were on a grain inclusive diet. That is proof enough for me.

 

There are wolf studies that show that they shake the stomach contents out of their prey animals and just don't eat the digestive tract of larger prey animals. But I'm sure on occasion they do ingest some form of crab source but even if so, the amount is so small and insignificant that it doesn't make much difference in the overall nutrition for the wolf.

 

No. It's pretty well documented that wild dogs will eviscerate the stomach of their kill and shake the contents out before eating it. Only very small animals are eaten whole (rodents, birds, and such). Even so, in the wild, few herbivores actually eat grains. They mostly eat grasses, seeds, and leaves. Dogs in the wild are pretty far removed from dietary grains in most cases.

Thanks for the info!!:biggrin::biggrin:

 

For grain-inclusive kibble I like Precise Plus, Precise Foundation Formula, and the Fromm 4 Star line. I also like California Natural for its limited ingredients.

Currently my 3 guys are dining on grain-free kibble (Acana and Horizon Legacy) and doing well.

 

Raw and others....

I want to make it clear to you guys that I am in no means saying that Dogs need carbs or grains.

I just couldn't look someone in the eye, tell them, "your dog MUST eat all meat and here's why" and point to this and this and this......" Whatever book or article I gave him, he could walk out and find someone else saying the opposite. Who to believe?


NET/NET....my gut tells me to side with you guys 100% and I do so somewhat(suppose if I truly did, I'd feed just raw) by feeding all grain free.


And for pete's sake Raw, don't say you need to get out of the discussion before you bother someone....that ain't me. Say what you feel. Nothing pisses me off more than super sensitives out here. How the hell are we gonna learn if people are scared to say what they feel is correct?

 

Raw and others....

I want to make it clear to you guys that I am in no means saying that Dogs need carbs or grains.

I just couldn't look someone in the eye, tell them, "your dog MUST eat all meat and here's why" and point to this and this and this......" Whatever book or article I gave him, he could walk out and find someone else saying the opposite. Who to believe?

As I said, it seems like many vets are compromised by compensation from big pet food companies who would love for vets to have studies showing that grain in food is actually *beneficial* for dogs, when if it were so, their evolution would have likely produced it if it provided an edge for survival.

As far as *must* goes, the main thing is to look at your dog and go by how she reacts to changes in diet. I know that when I pulled corn and wheat completely out of dog's diet, the skin allergy problems are down by at least 80% (and hopefully will more or less go away in coming months as her body continues to "detox"), and the eye boogers have gone down to almost zero. Not as much fur comes out when I brush her these days. These are obvious visible changes, not just a placebo -- and thus a rejection of the "kibble is kibble" argument. These improvements were already evident when I switched from Nutro Max (for which I hope my dog forgives me) to Kirkland, and even that's not grain-free (though with no corn or wheat). And it's even more evident as I transitioned to Orijen and an occasional raw feeding.

There's no question in my mind that grain-free feeding (especially no corn or wheat) has made a difference in how my dog looks and feels.

In short, trust your dog to "tell" you how dietary changes are working.

 

Dogs lack the long digestive tract necessary to properly process grains.

You can simply look at their dentition and digestive tract. That's all the proof I need that they only need meat, bones & organs.

I have NO problem recommending meat, bones & organs to EVERY dog owner I come across.

 

Oh yeah, Jon?...then how come Harry will woof down every piece of bread I hold in front of his face? :biggrin:

(just kidding...well, sort of...he will woof it down

 

Jay, did the story end well for the dog?

 

I don't know the final outcome but in the last news story I read on this, the dog (a German Shepherd) was recovering and gaining weight without meds.

The most shocking part of this story is that the person who did this worked in a local veterinary hospital!

Ex Vet Tech Pleads Not Guilty To Animal Cruelty - cbs2.com

 

I did want to add something to the discussion....


I really feel like the whole..."let how your dog is doing tell you if your food is appropriate" theme is not the best advice. I think its true to a point. However, the inner workings of a living animal are pretty complex and dynamic. Certainly a nice coat and firm stools are good signs but I'd at least guess there is more going on inside of your Dog that is significantly impacted by his diet. IE-just because you THINK he is doing well on a food doesn't mean all is great. a. you could be missing something b. even if he ISN'T doing so well, it could take months or even years for anything to LOOK not so well(example was given by Jay and the Dog eating rocks and sticks. Even HE survived for awhile).....

Just sayin. I do agree its a decent starting point though.

 

I really feel like the whole..."let how your dog is doing tell you if your food is appropriate" theme is not the best advice. I think its true to a point. However, the inner workings of a living animal are pretty complex and dynamic. Certainly a nice coat and firm stools are good signs but I'd at least guess there is more going on inside of your Dog that is significantly impacted by his diet. IE-just because you THINK he is doing well on a food doesn't mean all is great. a. you could be missing something b. even if he ISN'T doing so well, it could take months or even years for anything to LOOK not so well(example was given by Jay and the Dog eating rocks and sticks. Even HE survived for awhile).....

Agreed to a point, but the problem is that there's only so much dogs can communicate to you. The most important thing is to get the "big stuff" right, which is a diet primarily (if not exclusively) from meat -- this is something that is common to pretty much all dogs. Some studies may say some grains are okay, and that's fine -- but I don't know any credible study that suggests the optimal canine diet is heavy on grains and carbs, and low in proteins.

But after that, individual dogs can and do differ in how they may respond to specific ingredients. And since the dog can't actually talk to you and say what makes them feel best, most energetic, or whatever else, the next best thing we can do is observe them and take note of the non-verbal cues we get. It's painfully obvious to me that my dog is doing much better on grain-free; I don't need someone with a Ph.D. in animal nutrition to tell me that. Smaller differences will be harder to discern, but probably also fairly trivial with respect to getting the big stuff right.

Look at *human* nutrition. We can't even agree on that and we have one study contradicting another study all the time -- and this is with test subjects who can read, write and speak with respect to how they are feeling, how much energy they have, what side effects they may be feeling and so forth. If we can't even nail it down on people who have the advantage of clear communications between researcher and test subject, how can we pretend to do it with dogs or any other animals?

As long as we get the big stuff right, as far as I'm concerned the rest is "fine-tuning" based on how your dog behaves and seems to feel.

 

Now that this thread has strayed way off-topic, I'd encourage anyone interested in the whole meat/raw/carnivore/grain/science/nature debate to read all 10-pages of this thread.

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dog-food-ingredients/2329-backed-scientific-study.html

 

Wow, I go out for a few hours and this things goes completely off topic...

 

It's the nature of the beast here meggels LOL

It's good that this thread has stayed positive, informative, and polite...let's keep it that way.

As far as looking at body condition, bowel movements, urine and other outwardly signs is an excellent way to know things are going well or not as the first step in evaluating total health. Granted it won't tell you exact liver and kidney values or how the lungs sound but if there were any health issues associated with the major organs, you'd know. BUT sometimes somethings like liver and kidney disease can start out very mild and you'd never see clinical signs. Does that mean everything is ok with your dog? Nope. Does that mean something might have to change in the diet or exercise? Maybe. While you as the owner can get a good picture of general health at home, you cannot pick up on the things you don't know to look for or don't have the means to look for. Annual or semiannual wellness exams as well as bloodwork are the extra tools needed to assess total health of a dog.

 

Natalie,

agree....but here's a perfect example.

We all debate the issues with Ethoxyquin. Set aside the debate and for sake of discussion, let's assume there is indeed an issue with Ethoxyquin in the food you are feeding your Dog. And it is indeed giving your Dog Cancer....

It would take years for anyone to see any VISIBLE signs that this was happening.

Just one example. I'd say many foods are reasonably decent enough(the Diamond Foods, for example) to give your Dog a nice outward appearance...but not necessarily the best foods.

I'm probably splitting hairs on the issue...just wanted to try and illustrate what I'm talking about.


Certainly, if your dog has Diarrhea 24/7, fur that is falling out in clumps and is vomitting all over the house...it's pretty easy.

Overall, I agree...how your Dog is doing is definitely a good starting point. But I fed Pedigree for years(god forgive me please) and honestly....my Dogs didn't look AWFUL. Stools were ok. Murphy would vomit about once/month but nothing WAY horrible in terms of appearance.

 

I'd still love to hear thoughts on specific foods lol. I understand that many feel grain free is the way to go, and I agree for the most part, but would love to hear if you HAD to choose some of the best grain inclusive foods, what would you choose.

If I stay with grain free, I'm going to have to go with TOTW I think...

 

Meg, if you have no issue w/ the P & G takeover, I'd say the Natura line would be the best.

I think most would say Merrick, Acana Grain are others. If you don't have an issue w/ Canidae...it's another option to look at(My Beagle had a violent reaction to Canidae so I'm not a fan)....Diamond also offers some nice foods on paper(Chicken Soup, Prem Edge, Naturals)...but again, you've got some real ? marks there for many of us.

Honestly, I'd try to get your hands on Acana Grain foods if you really wanted to go down that path. Mostly because they come from a company I feel very good about.

 

Gonna give Fromm a try. I've heard nothing but good things about it. The four star entree line that is...

I'm sure I'll get ripped apart for that choice lol

 

Not at all. I have always liked Fromm foods and the company. Let us know how it goes...

 

So far, after 1/4 of their dinner tonight being it, they sure seemed to like it lol!

Those are the TINIEST kibbles I have ever seen in my life though! HOLY COW! Murph will be happy with that I'm sure, I think the Acana was a bit harder for him to eat with that tiny little frenchie mouth :wink: