Can't comment on the raw option here as it's the dry/canned section! But if the dogs are doing great on their current diets then i would stick with it. BTW I love Acana products, have used them on my fosters and if I didn't feed raw I would feed this kibble.

 

Acana and Orijen are both excellent kibbles, and I fed them in my pre-raw days .. back in November 2011. lol.

 

I'm thinking along Robins lines, if you think your dogs are doing wonderfully on their various diets, why change? I think the foods you have chosen are both great foods, made by trustworthy companies. You are rotating between the different proteins, which I personally like to do as well. Mollie was on the various proteins of Orijen (we don't get Acana here) before we made the move to raw, and I was very happy with her condition. My cat is on Orijen, I did a lot of research before persuading her to eat this food, but I'm very happy with the results so far. My friends 14 year old pug is on mostly Orijen (and premade raw), he was on Science Diet, but his health, coat and general demeanor are like night and day compared to a year ago.
Seriously, from what you have written, what you are currently feeding seems to be a good thing.

 

so based on this information, or any other information (just ask) what would you recommend I feed Trooper and Gus? And why? I personally believe ultimately I should be feeding them a properly balanced RAW diet...and I'm working towards that, but if someone wants to tell me that a RAW diet is not ideal for them, I'm open ears, but please to do explain Thank you all in advance.

Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?

There is something to be said for the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' rule of thumb, however, there is also a difference between adequate nutrition and optimal nutrition, and it can be difficult to know the difference between the two.

To take a step back, when I'm choosing a diet for a patient, first I make a list of companies that I feel produce optimal nutrition.
To start, I ask the following questions:
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

I have asked these questions of a lot of companies. Most companies don't bother answering at all, a couple have answered one or two of the questions and left the rest blank. Champion (who makes Acana) did not answer me.
Once I have a list of companies I trust, I look at what the animal needs, and look at the products available from my 'trusted companies', to see what produce best meets the needs of the animal.

Trooper
-young active dog
-history of urinary issues (this is a bit of a question mark for me... Male dogs very rarely get bladder infections, so I'm curious about how he got a UTI, what crystals he formed, the concentration of his urine at the time, and what his urine looks like when he's healthy)
-history of itchy skin; is this a food allergy, environmental allergy, or due to the fact that golden's are a breed that is predisposed to hot spots and skin issues?
-breed predispositions; joint disease, skin issues, cancer

Nutritional wish list:
-moderate protein/fat levels to meet needs of a high energy/activity dog
-skin support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, sulfur amino acids (these are abundant in corn... as an aside...), omega-6s like LA and GLA to strengthen the strength of the skin barrier
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage

Gus
-growing giant breed dog
-breed/size predisposition to diarrhea, GDV, joint disease, dilated cardiomyopathy, cancer

Nutritional wish list:
-diet produced to meet the growth requirements of a giant breed dog
-GI support; highly digestible to decrease fermentation which can lead to diarrhea, and easily broken down to help decrease risk of bloat
-for joints: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, maybe some glucosamine/chondroitin added in as well
-heart support: EPA/DHA for anti-inflammatory benefits, L-carnitine to ensure adequate supply and decrease risk of DCM, antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage.
-cancer: maintain a good body condition (already doing that), supplement with a blend of antioxidants to help reduce free radical damage

Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be:

Trooper: Golden Retriever 25 / Breed / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Maxi Joint and Coat Care 28 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin (this is actually what I feed my dog and he does amazingly well on it)
Maxi Adult 25 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Gus: Giant Junior / Giant / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin

 

Question: what has convinced you that raw is the way to go? (ie: what nutritional benefits do you perceive coming from raw vs a commercial diet or even a cooked homemade diet)
If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs?

Royal Canin is my first choice of companies when I am recommending a diet, because I believe they are light years ahead of anyone else when it comes to research, product development, and product safety. Plus, they have a ton of specific formulas, which allows me to choose diets that meet my nutritional wish list better than using a generic 'one size fits all' approach. So, if I were choosing diets for your dogs, the ones I would be considering would be:

Trooper: Golden Retriever 25 / Breed / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Maxi Joint and Coat Care 28 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin (this is actually what I feed my dog and he does amazingly well on it)
Maxi Adult 25 / Maxi / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin
Gus: Giant Junior / Giant / Dog Diets / Pet Store Exclusive Diets / Home - RoyalCanin

I've read your entire answer, thank you for your advice and reasoning, I appreciate it. I am not doubting your knowledge or education, or even your reasoning, but with my experience/knowledge/advice/understanding, I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding either dogs a food with such little meat content.

To answer your question, what convinces me that RAW is the way to go. I've been convinced by my current vet, by my current dog trainer, by friends/family that feed their dogs a RAW diet with much success, from several educated and experienced people, from people who have sled huskies and feed RAW and people who have working farm dogs, from several people on this forum, and other forums, from success stories I've heard/read, and based on my belief of trying to do things naturally, and create natural health.

If you do go raw, how will you determine that the diet is a) balanced b) safe d) is meeting the nutritional requirements of your dogs? I've done a ton of research online about how to properly balance a RAW diet, I believe I have a good understanding of it, but I am also going to continue trying to learn more before I do decide to make the switch or not. I've consulted with my vet about a properly balanced RAW diet, and he too has experience with feeding his own dogs a RAW diet, he also treats dogs that are fed various diets, and he believes in feeding a RAW diet, which is a great piece of mind for me. How am I going to know if it's meeting all the nutritional requirements of my dogs, again, based on others advice/experience and by trying it with my dogs. If I realized that this diet was not working for them I would change it of coarse.

In all honesty....I DON'T know forsure that feeding a RAW diet meets all the nutritional requirements for my dogs, but I also DON'T know that any commercial diet, or home-made diet would meet those nutritional requirements either. I am doing my very best to provide them the very best I can, and I have good reason, after learning, confiding in professionals, and seeing the results of other people who feed their dogs RAW, seeing the improvements, and learning from previous peoples mistakes/experiences to believe that a RAW diet is ideal for my dogs.

I don't know much about Royal Canin, and I appreciate your in depth explanation. I'm not completely writing you off and saying "you don't know what you're talking about, I'm doing it my way", I do believe you know what you're talking about and I am trying to learn from you (I am open to hearing everyones opinions/advice, and from there making my own decision)...but as for now, I'll just say thank you for your advice and leave it there.

PS...sorry for so much RAW talk in the dry/kibble section, just trying to answer the question.

 

DogLuver:

You rotate foods for both dogs. You list the results for both dogs as "good, no problems".

I think you have your answer: stay with what you're doing.

 

You know, I'm just tried of the same old crap! I really find it hard to believe that you are not from a "dog food co." Raw is taking over and the kibble co. are getting worried so they must send out their people to put scare tactics on the forums.....Enough is enough!

Try raw the right way and you too will be convinced!

 

Thanks whiteleo, but don't worry, no one is scaring me into believing anything, and I did ask for these people's opinion specifically.

Let's keep this thread pretty please I am truly trying to learn as much as possible and understand from all points of view. Thank you all.

 

Ok so myth buster basically said what I would have said.
I really feel that anyone wanting to use ANY diet should use those questions!!! Even for a pre-made RAW diet. You cannot assume that because a company says it is “good and wholesome” it is. If they do not answer your questions then you basically know they are lying to you on their packaging. Back to that pretty packaging thing and their scare tactics and playing off of people’s emotions. They know people want to feed the best and they find ways to make them believe this is the best. To be honest I wouldn’t feed a company that ever said “we do not add ……”, for the very reason of they never give scientific proof as to why it isn’t added. Many times they just state because of this, with nothing to back up the claim. Anyone can claim something, but truly only science can back up the claim. I know some people seem to be against research, and say they see differences, which is fine. But science truly is the only way we can conclusively determine something, as it does control many variables to ensure the result was due to whatever they were studying not by chance. No trial will ever give you all the answers, that isn’t biology. But a trial can definitely open more tunnels for research.
From the companies listed I would never use them for the reason that I know they do not formulate properly. I have heard, and seen firsthand many bad cases with these supposed holistic diets. Based on how diets are made and the ingredients they add, I know the pet is not getting everything, and every bag varies greatly. These companies prey on the un-educated consumer, which is not right, but is fact. This trend occurs not only in pet food but people health as well. However, as we see every dog is different.
Just because their coat looks great does not mean it is great. It can still be brittle and fall out a lot, the skin can too oily, or not produce enough. Many of these companies state they have omegas which will make the skin and coat nice. But nutrition is never just one ingredient, often it is over 20 different nutrients for just one area.
Troopers urinary issues are very interesting, I would keep an eye on that. If they were calcium oxalate stones I would avoid a potato based diet as research is showing an increase in calcium oxalate stones and the common denominator is a potato diet. As for Gus I would really recommend a large or giant breed puppy food (Giant breed is even better). Giants have a remarkable growth period, and research has been showing that dogs of this size if not fed properly actually are suffering from osteo-arthritis at very young ages. During the first 8 months these dogs have grown about 8X their initial body weight. This is HUGE, meaning they do require a diet precisely formulated to their needs. I cant think of any other animal that in that short of times increases its body weight by that much! (not much like I wolf I think).
One thing I am seeing and am more concerned about is what appears to be the lack of fibre in the RAW diet. You actually need fibre in order to ensure healthy transit and proper friction in the gastro intestinal tract. You actually need this in order to ensure the cells are rejuvenating properly, without this cancer can be an issue. You may not see it in larger dogs as they do not live long enough, but more small dogs. To me like I have said before you really want to feed a prey model diet, you should feed a carcass – skin, hair organs, and all. This is the MOST accurate. If you have ever seen wolf scat, it has hair and grass in it. For this exact reason, I just feel if you wanted to fed RAW this is what should be done.
My next thing is based on digestibility. If you are only feeding protein and fat, no carb (which includes fibre). You should have nothing come out the other end. Anything that comes out was not digested. Also the bigger the chunks swallowed the less digestible it is as the stomach has to work very hard to break it up and in most cases will not. If things are eaten in smaller sizes (so kibble with the ground food) this actually increases digestive efficiency. As well believe it or not, cooking actually makes all food more digestible. That is a reason people started cooking foods, decreased digestive upsets (as well as parasites). I know many people want smaller poop, however, there can be too small of a poop and this can be a whole other issue. I just recently rescued a springer who was fed pedigree and I have NEVER seen poop that big come out of a dog that small (kinda scary). He now has a poop that is appropriate for that size. So yes feeding a diet that is not formulated right nor digested well will lead to bigger messes, but like I said too small is an issue too.

Personally I am against rotation, if you would like to know why just ask  I thought the post was long enough haha

I think I have hit every point, but really for any diet you buy ask the company those questions, I have a feeling some of the companies (pre-made raw or kibble) will shock you either with lack of response or that you deemed them bad based of false facts and they actually do write you back.

 

although, i do get the feeling that 'the expert' and 'mythbuster' are one and the same or they are sisters and brothers or something....too much similarity in their writing styles. just sayin'.

How much time do you think I have in a day???? I have a full time job... I wish I had enough time to have multiple personas........
Reality is, when you study nutrition and talk nutrients and safety and quality, the same answers keep coming up. Doesn't make us the same person, just means we've found the same answers.

I've been a member of another forum for several months and I have to say, it's refreshing to have found someone that understands nutrition the way I do, that's what made me join this forum in the first place.

 

Yes lets please stop accusing people of things. If you look at any scientific paper they will sound the same. Part of getting a higher level degree is learning how to write scientifically. This is how the scientific world trys to keep things on the same playing feild. If we write the same then it means anyone reading the literature can understand it. I am not necessarily against RAW and I not 100% for kibble. I just feel many people in both worlds are mis-lead and the more we can get the information out there the better and more progress we can make. Kibble started not because companys wanted to s*** people over, it started because a need was seen that dogs and cats were suffering from malnutrition. Then organizations came into place in order to ensure these companies were actually giving the pets what they needed. Why didnt we just stay with the raw/sooked diets? Point blank it is REALLY REALLY hard to formulate a diet. I know we keep saying the wolf eats this and switch it up and I get blood work done. And I am not bashing anyone who has said this. But I dont think dogs are anything like wolves, they differ by about 1 - 2% in genes, us and chimps differ by 2%. Should we eat like chimps or vice versa? No, they are a differnt animal. Same as the dog and wolf. I think we need to feed dogs like dogs. Now, with the blood work, it really isnt a good way to determine health. I know no one has said anything about it, but I just wanted to mention it from the last post. There is so much individual variation, that blood work really only shows something when it is almost too late. Researchers hate using it for this reason, but if i trial is not terminal it is the only thing we have. I am not saying for people to not do it, I just wanted to shed some information on it. I do think RAW can be done right and I do think a kibble can be done right. I DO NOT think though that we should be adding too much to any diet that it puts strain on the body, such as a higher protien diet. One thing I find everyone no matter what thinks more is always better. I have been hearing of alot of these higher protien kibble diets being the common factor in kidney failure in young dogs (puppies in most cases) all of differnt breeds. In many cases this high protein kibble diets can give even more protien than a RAW diet as there is no wet weight. I just think people need to be more aware of the gimmicks out there. In many cases I am seeing people switch from poor formulas to RAW and seeing differences then you believe that is the best diet there is. I am not saying it isnt, or it is. I am just saying this is a trend I am seeing, who is to say it still is the best? Maybe there is another diet out there even better? As well, every animal is differnt such as every person is differnt, and not every diet is made for every dog or cat. But I really really think proper education is better, not well they did this so it will work for me, and forums like this are good to get some ideas to then further research from real science (which I cannot push enough - the only way we can prove something is better or not). Like I have said and will say again, a chicken in Florida is not the same Chicken in Alberta Canada, their carcass will be very very differnt, kibble and RAW both face this.

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

myth buster....do you work for Royal Canin or something? All the foods you suggested are Royal Canin brand. I know when I suggest food to people, I recommend more than one brand. Not every dog does well on the same brand. I know you like that brand...but...yeah.

The Expert...I think you are either myth buster as well, or westminterofthree . But, I have to agree with you on something. Whole model prey is inclusive of hair and stomach contents. I also agree that for fiber in a diet, dogs should be eating the hair/fur of their prey. They should eat the animal whole.


There are a lot of great kibbles out there, I am not here to knock kibble. I do believe in rotation though. I mean, I really love Wheaties. But sometimes, I want Lucky Charms or Cookie Crisp. Wheaties has more fiber, Lucky Charms has more ....horseshoes. Um, ok bad analogy. But variety can't be a bad thing and what one food lacks, another can provide.

You have to do what is best for your dog. If they are doing good now, GREAT. If you want to try something like raw, then lets meet up on the raw forum and we can chat. Unless....this thread was to talk to anti~raw people to see what they have to say?

In which case, I am listening (well, reading...) as I want to learn as much as possible too

 

1) There are a lot of great kibbles out there, I am not here to knock kibble. I do believe in rotation though. I mean, I really love Wheaties. But sometimes, I want Lucky Charms or Cookie Crisp. Wheaties has more fiber, Lucky Charms has more ....horseshoes. Um, ok bad analogy. But variety can't be a bad thing and what one food lacks, another can provide.

2) You have to do what is best for your dog. If they are doing good now, GREAT. If you want to try something like raw, then lets meet up on the raw forum and we can chat. Unless....this thread was to talk to anti~raw people to see what they have to say?

In which case, I am listening (well, reading...) as I want to learn as much as possible too

1) bahahahaha....lucky charms.....horseshoes.....hahaha thanks for that, good laugh!!!!
2) Thank you, I am looking into RAW, and I will definitely start posting in the RAW forum when I do, this thread was sort of SORT OF to see what the anti-raw people have to say, and just to learn as much as I can, I didn't know exactly where to put it, because it sort of addresses both kibble and RAW and nutrient/digestability...so sorry RAW feeders/Kibble feeders for the discrepancies, I sorta wanted to address both.

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

to the expert:

kibble was started because two brothers in england thought up a way to make dog food, although in those days, it was dehydrated.
and then it came to the US and well, we all know what happened then and now.

i have a medical degree. it makes me no more able to speak on this subject as it does you to write a scientific paper, without continuing education, something many doctors and vets lack.

one does not have to read about every single process the canine body goes through in scientific terms to understand bioavailability and digestion and any other big word you want to throw. that's just scholastic and ivory tower snobbery. i mean, come on.

we make fun of these people at conventions and conferences..right?

i'm not going to address which food is right. we all come to our own conclusions in our own way.....but there are many of us on this board who don't have degrees in veterinary medicine or human medicine or biology or etc. etc. etc. and can very well read and write a scientific paper and read the science behind feeding a dog the species appropriate diet...

on the other hand, i would no more trust a treatise or study funded by science diet than i would a drug trial funded by merck.

fair enough?

I actually do have scientific articles that are published in peer reviewed journals, however, this is here nor there. Also, I have went to many conferences, and those words are used alot, but that is because I am attending animal nutrition seminars that well, we talk about nutrients and what is happening with them. Sorry, if you find this offensive, it is just my common language, as every day i use these words.

I never said you needed a degree to read anything, I just said that this is where you should get your information from, reviews are even crap (with your medical background you would know that). If we just kept going on reading what everyone in the world had an opinon on then we would never go anywhere. I am not saying read papers by pet food companies either, there is tons of research out there from non pet sources on pets. However, do not judge who funded the paper either. The company who funded my research allowed me to publish all my findings which actually disproved their product. So should we judge all funding sources for being bias?

I thought this was supposed to be a nice forum, what have I said that has made you feel the need to attack me? Or do you just like to pick at people who have a differnt opion then you?

 

Acutally I am me and no one else. I honestly am new to forums, I have always tried to stay away for the reason of not wanting to start a fight. But the more I actually teach seminars the more I am seeing a need for educating outside of this method. I am not hear to tell anyone what to do, as I have said before what you feed your pet is your perogative and what I feed is mine. However, I do feel that unbias information just stating facts is improtant for every pet owner who wants to do the best for their furry friends. I do not fully understand the ideas behind RAW personally as I see some flaws, the same way you see flaws in kibbles. It will always be like the argument who came first the chicken or the egg. The knowledge I have gained is from the same way I teach; here are the facts, you decide on your own what is best. I know I will sound like a broken record but I truly beleive in research, this mostly likely comes from research background in toxicology. This is where food safety is a huge thing for me and I know what some companies do in order to ensure this, and I know what others state and how flawed they are. I also know how hard it is in a RAW diet to guarantee toxicity of any compound does not occur. But knowledge is power and more people can learn the better off society will be and the quicker we can change things that are not right. As well the more people can open their eyes and not shout their mouth off at anyone who oposes them the better we will be (I am not accusing anyone on this post about that, just so you know the last forum maybe haha).

 

:usa::usa::usa::usa::usa:

 

Royal Canin is considred top notch over in Europe, aren't they?

 

I'm not sure (someone else will chime in I'm sure)....but meggels, I know you get this a lot, but Murph is just toooooooo cute!!! Your signature picture with his little legs behind him like that...like a froggy awww!!!

I had small dogs my whole life, and decided I would only have big dogs when I had the choice (got older and moved out lol)...but I may get a french bulldog someday, they're just SO DAM CUTE!

Sorry everyone....Back to the topic ....

 

Putting the possibility of trollers aside,

it is possible to have 2 (or more) well-spoken educated posters who may have varying opinions to what the core of raw feeders believe. I don't see why that should be so impossible to imagine.

There are many sources of information, studies, theories and unanswered questions regarding nutrition. I, frankly, would find it surprising if everyone did come to the same conclusion.

 

I agree, it is very possible that we have 2 well-spoken educated posters here...I'm trying to be open minded It's a good learning opportunity to hear from different experiences, and different ideas/opinions...it IS a good thing but people try to fight over it, try to learn from it (whether you believe a persons opinion or not). If someone is spewing absolute crap information you'd know, I don't see that happening here, whether the information is correct or not, it makes us think, and helps us learn.

 

Well, I don't know much about what makes up "good" foods, but I'll give my opinion anyways (I'm in a "mood"). So, I've had dogs for what seems like forever, have fed everything from scraps to raw, what some considered absolutely horrendous foods (Ol' Roy) and better quality ones. Now, I've been blessed (knocking on wood) in that not one (except for a parvo incident) of my dogs has lived less than 14 yrs and most of those have been what many consider large breeds and without any "serious" health problems.
My belief is to find a diet that your dog thrives on, "no" health problems, looks and feels good, "likes" to eat, and that you can accept/like/deal with. I also believe that to feed anything just one "food" is setting yourself and them up for a lot of problems. When I fed kibble, I changed what they eat constantly. I don't mean a "rotation", at least the kind I've read about here, or a slow change over. I bought 2 or more bags of kibble at a time, whatever brands I felt like. Sometimes this meant foods they'd had before or something totally new. Didn't even stay within "companies" and then every day they got one or another of what was available. I believe that it was this kind of feeding that was the main reason, I never (knock on wood) had any kind of "digestive upset". Another reason, might be that we never saw a reason not to feed "extras". I will admit to being a little nervous feeding chicken bones but I never had a problem feeding other bones. So my reccommendation, would be to feed what works for you and your dogs. If you feel they'll do "better" on something else try it, if it doesn't work go back to what works, or try something else until you find what you need/want in a diet.

 

When I fed kibble, I changed what they eat constantly. I don't mean a "rotation", at least the kind I've read about here, or a slow change over. I bought 2 or more bags of kibble at a time, whatever brands I felt like. Sometimes this meant foods they'd had before or something totally new. Didn't even stay within "companies" and then every day they got one or another of what was available.

The concern I have with rotating diets is this; The more protein sources an animal is exposed to, the more potential allergens are on the list if the animal ever presents with a food allergy, meaning it will be more difficult to find an appropriate diet that the animal is not allergic to. This goes especially for puppies with soft stool, because the gut is already more permeable, so larger protein pieces are passing through the gut and are more likely to initiate an allergic response by the body.

 

I do think RC is an interesting dog food company. Dunno why. Their marketing of the breed specific formulas annoys me though. I'd never personally feed it. We had a client frenchie stay with us for a bit, and the owner sent RC Bulldog with it. The kibble was yellow and smelled pretty darn awful.


Royal Canin has nine production operations:
Aimargues, southern France
Cambrai, northern France
Johannesburg, South Africa
Rolla, Missouri, USA
Descalvado, Brasil
González Catán near Buenos Aires, Argentina
Dmitrov near Moscow, Russia
Castle Cary near Bristol, UK
Guelph, Ontario, Canada
One further production facility is under construction in Poland.


Interesting that they have so many production companies all over....

 

The melamine disaster was a tragedy that affected thousands of pets and pet owners. It impacted both prescription and retail diets, and if you’ll recall, human baby formula. It happened because a product supplier intentionally added melamine to their wheat gluten to falsely elevate the protein level. Until it happened, it never occurred to anyone that something like that could ever be possible.

It affected the larger food companies because the supplier of some ingredients was the same for different companies. It happened because these companies were lied to by the supplier. The fact that some companies were not affected does not mean that they were better, it means they were lucky. The affected ingredients were not cheap. They were sabotaged. Unless you are going to personally harvest every ingredient that goes into a diet and personally deliver it to the production facility, suppliers are a necessity. Every pet food company relies on suppliers.

Royal Canin is extremely stringent with regards to who and where ingredients come from, and every ingredient source must qualify through an intense screening process. Learning from the melamine disaster and moving forward with that knowledge, they incorporated NIRS testing into that process. This test provides the fingerprint of the raw ingredients as well as the finished product. This is done IN ADDITION to several other tests to ensure consistent superior quality, on every single batch of ingredients and final products. If there is a contaminant, be it biological or inert, intentional or otherwise, the NIRS test will identify that the ingredient or product is not what it’s supposed to be.

I feel confident supporting Royal Canin because they learned from the melamine disaster and improved themselves, so the next time a supplier sabotages an ingredient source (and maybe next time it will be a US supplier, or a Canadian supplier....), I can be assured those ingredients will not make it into the Royal Canin products I am recommending for my patients. Even if the company isn't looking for a specific contaminant, the test will identify it. How many companies do you think have this level of quality assurance?

I wish the melamine disaster had never happened. But I'm relieved that there are some (sadly, not many) companies that took it seriously enough to develop methods to ensure nothing like that will ever happen again.

 

mythbuster, are you a Royal Canin rep or something? I can't quite understand why you think feeding a dog corn is acceptable or why you push Royal Canin to everyone who asks for dry food opinions? I don't need a response explaining why "high quality" corn is so great though, because in MY opinion there's no such thing as good quality grains or vegetables for any dog.

 

DogLuver, I would keep your lovely dogs on the foods they are on, with rotating proteins, if they are doing well, until the time comes to switch to raw later on! Acana and Orijen are both from Champion foods, which have a pretty good track record and have always answered my emails pretty quickly. If you did want other options, Innova EVO (though I don't think they have a LBP formula, but for your older dog), Horizon Legacy, Back to Basics and Go! are all good brands.

I'll admit, I never understood the whole reasoning behind the "omg, it's so complicated to formulate a diet!" thing. I mean, you feed yourself don't you? You trust your own judgement enough not to eat a scientifically formulated 'cereal' that provided 100% of your daily nutrition requirement? You (should, at least!) eat a variety of fresh, whole foods, well, it's the same for dogs.. a variety of fresh, whole animals or animal parts. There are a few things to look out for- ie, vitamin A in liver.. but honestly, your dog would get cannon butt far before it got vitamin A toxicity. Unless of course you are feeding arctic/antarctic predator's livers, like polar bear and seal.. those contain a LOT of vitamin A. The other would be salmon poisoning.. freeze the salmon, trout, sturgeon etc caught in the Pacific northwest a few months before feeding or lightly cook. I wouldn't feed wild boar or bear either. Other than that, go nuts :wink:.

 

DogLuver, I would keep your lovely dogs on the foods they are on, with rotating proteins...

Why thank you Caty I think they're lovely too hehe...we appreciate a compliment every now and again.

I recently joined this forum as well and I have to say, it is waaay more interesting than the others I have been on! Come on guys lighten up on mythbuster and the expert they are obviously educated and very well informed, "don't shoot the messenger" just because you don't like the message. What bothers me though is this is the kibble section and so far, every query I've seen has most of the answers given by the raw feeders. Now, I have nothing against them, but I don't choose to feed my dogs that way and you have your own section.

You're right about this forum being interesting, it gets pretty heated at times, but none-the-less....interesting.

I don't get this (bold) part...the more inquiries, the more people ask questions, the more in depth conversations/debates come about, so "lightening up" on someone doesn't contribute much to a forum like this...and many people come and go, some that are in fact educated and very well informed, and others that give off a GREAT impression that they are educated and well informed, while their sources may not be reliable. I hate seeing people say "just because you don't like the answer someone gave you, doesn't make it wrong"...people are arguing their opinion based on more than just "I don't like this new-comer, and I don't agree with him/her", why is it assumed so often that the people here have their arguments based anger and "internet brain-wash" rather than knowledge and experience, there ARE educated/experienced people here already, just because they're not stating their "degree" and where they were educated. Some people can't handle the debates that go on here, and resort to name calling and "mr/mrs nice guy", while those that can put bias opinions and bullhonkey aside, can really learn a lot. I'm still not sure as to whether I agree with MythBuster or TheExpert...but I'm trying real hard to take in the information provided, and with as much logic and sense, along with my experiences and advice from other sources I trust, make a good decision. I had to start my own thread because this DOES involve both RAW feeding and kibble, and with this "new-ish" information that I'd never heard before, I'm stuck between which way to go, so the debate between RAW and kibble in this thread is educational for me anyhow. Though I gotta add that just because one person is saying Royal Canin is a great company, does plenty of research...and so forth, that's just not enough for me to make that decision. I've heard of many dogs that didn't do well on Royal Canin, and I've heard those stories, opinions, and experiences as well, and I wouldn't disregard them just because someone else has an opposing opinion.

Danemama...I'm sorry if it is getting people to discuss RAW in the kibble section...I didn't know where else to put it??? Let me know if this is a problem, I feel like this thread has been pretty civilized and educational.

For what it is worth, I love this forum. I love the information provided here and agree or disagree I also love the different perspectives. I like hearing from raw feeders, premium kibble feeders, and yes I do enjoy reading mythbuster and theexperts posts too. I like to keep an open mind and I hope the debates do not chase anyone off, I think they are healthy and informative

I completely agree with everything you've said here.

but, since that will never happen.....once again....i'm outta here....because the one true thing is that most raw feeders came from kibbles of all kinds.

so, please don't discount what we know, just because we think we found a better way. we have been where you are.

Please don't leave...I appreciate your input, and believe you know what you're talking about! I know a lot of people here "discount" the information that they don't like...but I'm not discounting anything you've said, I find it very helpful

......

so now my own input/opinion...
Seeing that I'm not a nutritionist, and I do not have the time to take up a new career in processing kibble...I can't resort to the fact that a kibble is only as good as how the ingredients were processed, and the digestibility of each ingredient, how on earth am I going to figure that out about each and every ingredient in each and every kibble. I know (mythbuster) you've recommended Royal Canin, but that's one company, with my personal experience, and knowledge, I wouldn't choose Royal Canin over RAW or Orijen/Acana. I do appreciate you taking the time to help me though mythbuster, so thank you!!!

I also believe dogs are carnivores, and don't need grains. JMO of coarse, but I don't understand how it's debatable whether a species is a carnivore or omnivore...isn't there a right and wrong answer to this? Everywhere I look, anyone I ask, it/they are telling me that dogs are carnivores. Not that this proves my idea to be right or wrong, because, this IS the internet we're talking about here, but if you google "are dogs omnivores" for 3 pages...it comes up with answers why dogs are not omnivores, they're carnivores...so can they ALL be wrong....really?

As for the person who posted "if I give my dog an apple and a piece of chicken, my dog will choose the apple"...well your dog is a one of a kind IMO...I've NEVER owned a dog who would turn down a piece of raw meat to a piece of fruit, nor have I seen anyone else's dog turn down a piece of meat, but hell...give him the apple if he wants it, does he need that apple??? Will it help him any??? I dunno, beats me???

 

I rotate Abbie every.single.bag. No problems so far. I would not want to eat the same kibble day in and day out.

 

I recently joined this forum as well and I have to say, it is waaay more interesting than the others I have been on! Come on guys lighten up on mythbuster and the expert they are obviously educated and very well informed, "don't shoot the messenger" just because you don't like the message. What bothers me though is this is the kibble section and so far, every query I've seen has most of the answers given by the raw feeders. Now, I have nothing against them, but I don't choose to feed my dogs that way and you have your own section. Just as you criticize mythbuster for liking royal canin and accusing him of working for them you sound like you have some sort of vested interest in the BARF and PMR diets. I know you like and trust those diets and that's great but others don't choose them at least for now. Back to the issues....
Like Celt has said earlier, I have had my dogs on a lot of varied foods from cheap to expensive and the cheaper worked better (her fur even fell out on Orijen!). Not liking that my vet and I set out to test my Ava to see what was bothering her. After a year and a half we finally discovered it was the probiotics in the high end foods! They put in acidophilus and other "healthy bacteria" but she can't tolerate it. Does anyone know any other premium foods that doesn't have these in them? Right now I am feeding them Purina Selects Turkey (has no grains or soy) but I would like advice on other premium foods.

 

Yes I have a vested interest in PMR but as it was mentioned, nearly all PMR feeders came from kibble. I may have missed it a few threads ago, but did mythbuster ever show us any credentials? It seems to me they research this topic just as any of us do but try to one up everyone else every time they post and quite frankly it's getting old. Many PMR feeders here have no problems recommending a quality kibble either so it's not like they're trying to push raw on any body, they're just here to help but get slammed for feeding raw by SOME PEOPLE every time they post.

 

Well the OP asked a question about raw in this particular thread. I agree it's mentioned too much overall in this section.. but a lot of the time it's relevant especially when I am explaining why I prefer say Orijen over Ol'Roy.. it's closer to a dog's natural diet (raw).