1 year on raw, bad poops...

Montana · Jul 19, 2011

Sorry I haven't posted in a bit (life happens

). Montana has been on raw for a year now. She took to it really well, was able to eat anything with no problems, and her poops have been great... up until these past few months.

One of the reasons was she was sneaking cat food, so found the solution to that.
But her stools have been horrible this past probably over 4 weeks now. I've tried going back to the basics, just chicken, no supplements, but bone in chicken leads to really really dry dusty poops, or dusty poops covered in mucous. Boneless chicken is soft slimy mucous poops. Tried turkey as well, same results. Any other protein comes out muddy diarrhea. I've tried meat from different sources and make sure nothing is enhanced.

I used to supplement with probiotics and Evening Primrose Oil for her dry skin, and her stools were fine then. I know most of you don't supplement, but if I don't start seeing improvement, I'm highly considering going back to Orijin. Having these digestive issues can't be good for her health....

magicre · Jul 19, 2011

ya know...it's been a year and a half.....and my kids fart....they have loose stools....it depends on what they are eating...or if i go too long between boney meals.....

malia, being older needs more bone than bubba but even he needs more bone than the 10 per cent guideline

i no longer measure the success of raw by their poo as long as it isn't cannon butt or the blatts...

could you give me an idea of what she eats on a weekly basis, not including the cat food.....and i have to wonder what else she is getting into...

Montana · Jul 19, 2011

She USED to be able to eat almost any sort of meat. I feed her once a day and would give her a full variety meal which would consist of the main protein (mostly beef, sometimes pork, chicken or turkey boneless, elk, moose, bison, deer, lamb, occasionally goat) with heart, spleen, kidney, liver, tongue, lung, chicken foot, ect. Then I would feed her once, sometimes twice a week with a bone in meal which was usually a chicken back.

Now, I have cut the organs and such and feed her just a meal of beef, or a chicken back, or a few wings, thigh, or neck of either chicken or turkey, along with boneless of those protein sources.

xellil · Jul 19, 2011

Has she been on antibiotics or any other medicines? It might be that you do need the probiotics for awhile.

Montana · Jul 19, 2011

Not recently. She was on antibiotics when I first got her last year because she was positive for erhlicia, but has been fine since then. No vaccinations since either.

magicre said:
so if you give her boney chicken she gets dry poo but if you add boneless, she gets the runs.

and what happens if you do both....bone in the morning....boneless at night..

I have actually tried giving her a chicken thigh, or a few wings, or neck, with some breast to cut the bone. :/ Can't seem to get that balance back! It's just strange cause she used to be able to eat and transition to new meats with zero problems. I could give her a full organ meal and be okay....

Tobi said:
wondering the same thing...

what % of her weight are you feeding?
also, what cuts?
skin on boneless?
what different proteins were you feeding before the cat food incident because if I recall she was just fine before that?
have you had her checked out for parasites or anything? could be from many things not raw food of course.

She's getting 1% - 1.5% of her body weight. If it's not chicken or turkey backs, wings, thighs, or boneless, I try and feed her beef roasts, rib cut, or other various cuts or sections of pork butt.
I have tried taking the skin off and cutting out fatty bits, which I've never done before!

She was fine before the cat food definitely! She was eating pork, beef, chicken, turkey, bison, lamb, goat, elk, moose, deer, and all sorts of weird and wonderful innards from these animals. I did forget to mention I had a fecal check a few weeks ago (which came back with nothing abnormal!) because it was such a strong concern when she was getting diarrhea and weird poops with the cat food, and I KNOW it's not the kitties food this time. Lesson learned first time round.

It's where she can't get it and up away in a container.

I just hope this is not another one of my DUH moments like that cat food where I'm wracking my brain, then looking like such a dumb dumb in the end...

PuppyPaws said:
What about meals that are not bone heavy, but not boneless. Middle of the road?
Dry, crumbly poo is a sign of too much bone. Runny stools is not enough bone, and perhaps too much food in general. You need to find the happy medium, which is different for every dog. Two of my dogs can go several days without bone and be just fine, and one needs quite a lot of bone each meal.

Do you have any not bone heavy suggestions? I have tried chicken and turkey wings, neck, or thigh, along with boneless to try and balance it out, but it usually just comes out crumbly covered in mucous... I'm just frustrated because why is this happening now?

magicre · Jul 19, 2011

so if you give her boney chicken she gets dry poo but if you add boneless, she gets the runs.

and what happens if you do both....bone in the morning....boneless at night..

Tobi · Jul 19, 2011

wondering the same thing...

what % of her weight are you feeding?
also, what cuts?
skin on boneless?
what different proteins were you feeding before the cat food incident because if I recall she was just fine before that?
have you had her checked out for parasites or anything? could be from many things not raw food of course.

xellil · Jul 19, 2011

I agree with Tobi - it's hard to imagine she was fine for all these months and then the raw food started causing problems.

CorgiPaws · Jul 19, 2011

What about meals that are not bone heavy, but not boneless. Middle of the road?
Dry, crumbly poo is a sign of too much bone. Runny stools is not enough bone, and perhaps too much food in general. You need to find the happy medium, which is different for every dog. Two of my dogs can go several days without bone and be just fine, and one needs quite a lot of bone each meal.

Montana · Jul 19, 2011

Also, we never really saw huge benefits raw because I started her on it when I first got her. She doesn't have a bad dog smell, but she never did, her breath still stinks, and her teeth are still bad. She was a scraggly mangy little street dog, so being fed anything would have improved her condition! I did feed a few weeks of Orijin, and started off raw diet with kibble at night, raw in the morning for a bit until I was able to find the variety I wanted.
Boyfriend thinks we maybe should go back to Orijin, because he's feeling bad for her as well...

Montana · Jul 19, 2011

But she had such great and consistent poops before, which is my main concern. And it's not just loose and soft, it's usually watery or muddy liquid. Or a bit of soft stool, followed by diarrhea, or soft and mucousy, or dusty mucousy, and sometimes just dust. A lot of the time I come back from a walk still with a poop bag cause it can't be picked up...
I have to mention they're not like this 100% of the time, but I'd say about 90%. Maybe once a week or 10 days or so they will be okay... still doesn't sound too healthy though!

magicre · Jul 20, 2011

i'm sorry. i didn't see this......oops

what if you were to feed her a chicken back in the a.m. and boneless in the evening....

because she hasn't been on raw all that long....my dogs had more solid poops after the first three months until about the year mark....

and then it changed again....and depends on what i feed and how long it is between bone meals and boneless meals...

with my older girl, i have to feed bone in meals just about every meal....but it's not bone heavy, it has bone in it...if that makes sense....

and if i feed her heart or something that is truly boneless, she will then get goat ribs or lamb ribs without a lot of meat so she can get bone in her system. otherwise, she squirts.

and i presume you have had a dental check up just to see if there is a gum disease problem..i remember this as an issue...

i know you've put a lot of work into this...but let me throw this by you...

i know for me, i expected raw to be a miracle worker. and it's not. imagine my surprise when i found out it wasn't...and i'm not kidding....

bubba's farts still clear a room....neither dog has solid poo consistently.....

we feed their organs in tiny little treat form, so as not to have to make it a meal...because we don't want cannon butt.

but again....what you're describing is too often.....and i don't know that you're doing anything wrong....except it sounds like maybe feeding boney in the a.m. and boneless in the p.m. and see how that goes...

plus, the richer the meat, the more bone they need, i think...my dogs get fed a wide variety of red meats....i think your dogs gets an even wider variety of red meat....so i would think bone would be necessary more than once or twice a week....

they adapt and change as they get used to the diet...i begin to think a year is not enough time to achieve full transition.

i think also, another fecal might be in order.....they don't always come back with what's going on...and if she has giardia for example, she would have that kind of poo.

Montana · Jul 20, 2011

It's just so frustrating because I thought I had her on a great balanced diet with lots of variety and no problems. I used to only have to feed a bone in meal once or twice a week or her poops would be too dusty, and that's what worked really well for the majority of time she has been on raw. I could proudly march around and say "this is what, and how much I feed, look at how healthy she lis, and we have no problemos!"
I had a friend stay with us who took her for a walk and described her poop when she came back, saying she doesn't think that's normal. Also had another friend watch her for a night when we were away (she's watched her quite a few times), who knows and supports the raw diet we feed, but she said she had diarrhea the whole time. It looks bad on me for feeding her raw, ya know?...
Now her stools go from too dusty one day to liquid mud the next as the result from feeding the exact same thing.

I'll try giving her two meals like you suggested, and another fecal. Figure I should do this again ASAP or wait a few days to a week?

You're right, it's not always a miracle diet... I think I would feel so guilty going back to kibble. It's just a catch 22 at the moment... I feel like she's the Benjamin Button of raw feeding, and starting off almost too good to be true, then reverting back asswards as if I had just started started her out on the raw diet....

ETA: Oh ya she's had her teeth and gums checked out quite a few times. Vets have all said it's just from her being malnourished in development years, and there's not much to do about it. She still has working teeth for the most part, they're just not pristine.

magicre · Jul 20, 2011

well, vets say things that i don't always agree with....don't they? LOL

does she have gingivitis? or gum disease?

do you give her beef ribs so she can use her teeth as a toothbrush?

you don't give her veggies or fruits, right?

i am finding it's not a miracle worker...it's species appropriate....that doesn't take into account genetics, slum living, crappy early beginnings...

my older girl...i have to be very careful how i feed her....or she gets the runs.....

i will, tomorrow, try the egg shell, because she's not eating at all....another thread..not to hijack this one.

i guess, what i'm saying...is i see what raw can do...and has done...but now i also am more realistic about it.

the first year i learned how to feed raw...and i guess now i have to learn how to feed my dogs...

PDXdogmom · Jul 20, 2011

Obviously my perspective is skewed differently from the other posters since I've never fed raw. I'm feeding kibble in the a.m. and home-cooked in the p.m.

Any dog that is having almost liquid diarrhea 90% of the time for as long as your dog has has a compromised system and is not getting the nutrients he needs. If some changes to the raw feeding can not quickly turn it around, I think its important to at least temporarily change the dog's food (be it Orijen, home-cooked, or Honest Kitchen Preference with your own raw meet). To not feed raw for a period of time is not the end of the world - you would feel much worse if your dog became seriously ill.

xellil · Jul 20, 2011

Now I am no expert by any means, so take this with a grain of salt, but..

from what i have read, feeding too much meat without enough bone results in a calcium deficiency and a phosphorus overload. For my smaller dog that can't handle too much bone, I feed her Eggshellent egg shells, 1/4 tsp to every 4 oz of meat. It seems to keep her regular.

this was a really fascinating website to me:
Natural Diet: Don't "Just Do It"

After i read it, I "got" the reason we have to feed bone, and the reason that without it our dogs won't do well on a raw diet.

Here is the quote that made me change the way I was feeding my dogs:

"There are far too many people giving eggs and meat to their pets without providing a balance to all the phosphorus they contain. Meat contains no calcium, and lots of phosphorus; bones contain lots of calcium. Eggs contain lots of phosphorus; the shells contain calcium. That is nature's balance. If we feed meat without bones or eggs without shells, or aren't sure of the correct ratios of those things to feed, we must use something to replace them. It is a common and tragic mistake to give a diet far too high in phosphorus to cats and dogs. (This is also common in human diets in the developed world, and a virtual epidemic of bone disease is the result, particularly in women, whose requirements for calcium are both greater and more specific than for men.) "

Nature's balance - meat AND bone. It makes perfect sense.

one of my dogs can't handle much bone, so I provide calcium via eggshells, which doesn't cause bowel problems.

xellil · Jul 20, 2011

Oh, and i know this is probably overkill, but since I have started this diet i have gotten a full blood panel on both my dogs every six weeks. I am going to stop doing that so often, but I think i can tell if their kidneys/liver etc are functioning properly that they are getting a good diet.

Also, I get a fecal monthly - I know it's not necessary and probably a waste of money (no parasites have shown up) but if they had diarrhea for any length of time that is the first thing I would test forl.

Montana · Jul 20, 2011

Hmmm, maybe I'll try eggshell as a source of calcium. Thanks for that link! It's just weird that what I was using for her bone intake was working, now it's not. Another fecal seems like it's in order...

Sorry PDX, I worded what I meant to say wrong? 90% is just abnormal stools, not always diarrhea (inconsistently dusty, mucousy, slimy and soft, or muddy etc). I'm used to consistently seeing small, darker, hard poops.

whiteleo · Jul 20, 2011

Have you tried fasting her for 24 hrs. and then starting with just a chicken quarter once a day?

Montana · Jul 20, 2011

Yep, we went back to the basics with just chicken when I first started having stool issues (which was the cat food thing) and resulted, and still does result, in dusty poops, dusty mucous poops, or loose soft slimy mucous poops. Tried with turkey, same thing. I seem to be having more of a problem with poultry... even though not always, if she does have an alright poop, it's been because of a beef meal.

magicre said:
well, vets say things that i don't always agree with....don't they? LOL

does she have gingivitis? or gum disease?

do you give her beef ribs so she can use her teeth as a toothbrush?

you don't give her veggies or fruits, right?

i am finding it's not a miracle worker...it's species appropriate....that doesn't take into account genetics, slum living, crappy early beginnings...

my older girl...i have to be very careful how i feed her....or she gets the runs.....

i will, tomorrow, try the egg shell, because she's not eating at all....another thread..not to hijack this one.

i guess, what i'm saying...is i see what raw can do...and has done...but now i also am more realistic about it.

the first year i learned how to feed raw...and i guess now i have to learn how to feed my dogs...

I have a bitter sweet relationship with vets.

Not that I've been told. Her gums are fine they've all said (we've seen a few different vets trying to find a good one), the plaque has subsided for the most part, she just has bad teeth. They're small and dull, she doesn't have front ones, and the ones she does have, have a big ridge in every one.

She gets a beef rib every day!

I can't seem to find ribs from anything else, so most of her bone intake is from poultry.

No fruits or veg, she's been on prey model since I started.

Maybe her body is just getting accustom to a regular diet? She was a street dog for 3 years til I got her and survived on who knows what. That's why she took to raw so well I think, she was so used to eating whatever...

Let me know how eggshell goes for you too! I have a few drying out right now.

Khan · Jul 20, 2011

I am at the 1.5yr mark with Khan and about the 1yr mark with the other 2. I am extremely happy with the switch; but I have very inconsistent poo with Khan. He will be perfect for days, then he will have soft-n-serve, then it's back to firm??? All the while he is eating the same way? If I do add more bone, he is on the complete opposite end and pooping white crumbly rocks! ??

Shelby and Bonzi on the other hand stay pretty consistent no matter what.
I guess my point is, I just wanted you to know you were not alone in this dept.!

magicre · Jul 20, 2011

Beef, bottom sirloin, tri-tip roast, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 0" fat, all grades, raw
New Search
Refuse: 1% (Bone and connective tissue)
NDB No: 13954 (Nutrient values and weights are for edible portion)

Nutrient Units Value per
100 grams Number
of Data
Points Std.
Error
Proximates
Water g 70.08 19 0.861
Energy kcal 165 0 0.000
Energy kJ 692 0 0.000
Protein g 20.64 19 0.195
Total lipid (fat) g 8.55 19 0.797
Ash g 1.03 19 0.025
Carbohydrate, by difference g 0.00 0 0.000
Fiber, total dietary g 0.0 0 0.000
Sugars, total g 0.00 0 0.000
Minerals
Calcium, Ca mg 25 0 0.000
Iron, Fe mg 1.49 0 0.000
Magnesium, Mg mg 21 0 0.000
Phosphorus, P mg 189 0 0.000
Potassium, K mg 317 0 0.000
Sodium, Na mg 52 0 0.000
Zinc, Zn mg 3.58 0 0.000
Copper, Cu mg 0.070 0 0.000
Manganese, Mn mg 0.011 0 0.000
Selenium, Se mcg 23.1 0 0.000
Vitamins
Vitamin C, total ascorbic acid mg 0.0 0 0.000
Thiamin mg 0.064 0 0.000
Riboflavin mg 0.100 0 0.000
Niacin mg 6.087 0 0.000
Pantothenic acid mg 0.594 0 0.000
Vitamin B-6 mg 0.563 0 0.000
Folate, total mcg 11 0 0.000
Folic acid mcg 0 0 0.000
Folate, food mcg 11 0 0.000
Folate, DFE mcg_DFE 11 0 0.000
Choline, total mg 86.2 0 0.000
Betaine mg 12.7 0 0.000
Vitamin B-12 mcg 1.06 0 0.000
Vitamin B-12, added mcg 0.00 0 0.000
Vitamin A, RAE mcg_RAE 0 0 0.000
Retinol mcg 0 0 0.000
Carotene, beta mcg 0 0 0.000
Carotene, alpha mcg 0 0 0.000
Cryptoxanthin, beta mcg 0 0 0.000
Vitamin A, IU IU 0 0 0.000
Lycopene mcg 0 0 0.000
Lutein + zeaxanthin mcg 0 0 0.000
Vitamin E (alpha-tocopherol) mg 0.32 0 0.000
Vitamin E, added mg 0.00 0 0.000
Tocopherol, beta mg 0.00 0 0.000
Tocopherol, gamma mg 0.00 0 0.000
Tocopherol, delta mg 0.00 0 0.000
Vitamin K (phylloquinone) mcg 1.3 0 0.000
Lipids
Fatty acids, total saturated g 3.140 0 0.000
4:0 g 0.000 0 0.000
6:0 g 0.000 0 0.000
8:0 g 0.000 0 0.000
10:0 g 0.007 0 0.000
12:0 g 0.005 0 0.000
14:0 g 0.206 0 0.000
16:0 g 1.969 0 0.000
18:0 g 0.954 0 0.000
Fatty acids, total monounsaturated g 4.246 0 0.000
16:1 undifferentiated g 0.325 0 0.000
18:1 undifferentiated g 3.918 0 0.000
20:1 g 0.002 0 0.000
22:1 undifferentiated g 0.000 0 0.000
Fatty acids, total polyunsaturated g 0.394 0 0.000
18:2 undifferentiated g 0.303 0 0.000
18:3 undifferentiated g 0.052 0 0.000
18:4 g 0.000 0 0.000
20:4 undifferentiated g 0.039 0 0.000
20:5 n-3 (EPA) g 0.000 0 0.000
22:5 n-3 (DPA) g 0.000 0 0.000
22:6 n-3 (DHA) g 0.000 0 0.000
Cholesterol mg 66 0 0.000
Amino acids
Tryptophan g 0.136 0 0.000
Threonine g 0.825 0 0.000
Isoleucine g 0.939 0 0.000
Leucine g 1.642 0 0.000
Lysine g 1.745 0 0.000
Methionine g 0.538 0 0.000
Cystine g 0.266 0 0.000
Phenylalanine g 0.815 0 0.000
Tyrosine g 0.658 0 0.000
Valine g 1.024 0 0.000
Arginine g 1.335 0 0.000
Histidine g 0.659 0 0.000
Alanine g 1.255 0 0.000
Aspartic acid g 1.880 0 0.000
Glutamic acid g 3.099 0 0.000
Glycine g 1.257 0 0.000
Proline g 0.984 0 0.000
Serine g 0.813 0 0.000
Hydroxyproline g 0.217 0 0.000
Other
Alcohol, ethyl g 0.0 0 0.000
Caffeine mg 0 0 0.000
Theobromine mg 0 0 0.000

USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference, Release 23 (2010)
New Search

meat does have calcium in it.....it just has more phosphorous than calcium...and what i posted is 1.00 grams of meat...

at any rate...i think the point is this. i don't know about you, but i went in thinking my dogs would live to be a hundred and they'd have perfect poos...

and it was at the year mark that i realised i was wrong....it's not a miracle, it is the way dogs should be fed.

if your dog is acting healthy....and is drinking water normally...and the only area of difficulty is the stools...then i am not so sure you have a problem other than needing a little bone more often, not a lot of bone less often.

when i fed my dogs liver as a meal...they had cannon butt. now that i feed them little cubes like a treat in the mornings...they don't.

so i'm thinking it's a matter of adjusting the diet for him..

like my malia, your dog didn't have great beginnings and all dogs are different....right?

3Musketeers · Jul 20, 2011

Oh, you're not alone. Unfortunately I have a similar problem with my Patchie. Now in this case it's user error, I will go and give them a boneless meal or two or give a bone-in meal with organ, and while the other two tolerate it just fine no matter what I give, there are days where Patchie will get semi-soft poop. However when I increase the bone (cause I separate their meals pretty equally :/ )then the other two have white poops and Patchie has them pretty normal.
The downside, Patchie has major butt-feathering, there are days when I feel like just giving her a poodle-cut LOL.

magicre · Jul 20, 2011

my dog's are rear end shaved....

believe it or not, i'd get another fecal.....because it so sounds like giardia or some other something....and i would equalise the meals a little...

like what bill feeds....chicken back in the morning, boneless in the afternoon....

this is what we started doing and the dog's poo is more even.....i don't try to push the envelope anymore, just because i can..and we feed some heavy duty red meat....

DaneMama · Jul 21, 2011

I don't know if this has already been asked or covered but has she had a fecal check recently?

Montana · Jul 22, 2011

Yep, I had a fecal a few weeks ago, nothing showed up but I'm going to get another one.

I came home this morning from work and she had a diarrhea accident in the house extremely bad... it was the most horrible I'd ever seen her stools like that and she has never gone in the house before. I had fed her a couple wings in the morning and some chicken breast in the afternoon and that was the result of that...
If the fecal comes back fine again, I don't think I can continue her on raw... it's just not working, she's acting normal, but these digestive problems can't be good for her health...

magicre · Jul 22, 2011

of course, it's entirely your decision. you have to live with this....

what you're describing sounds like what i was doing to my dogs....when they first started...

can you just try one more thing?

and put her on boney chicken...not chicken breast...but plain old chicken backs with the fat removed.....for a few weeks...and see if she stabilises?

Montana · Jul 22, 2011

Ya, I'll try that again mag... I feel like I'm having worse issues with the chicken compared to the beef, though. I'm pretty disheartened and it makes me sad... I don't want to give up on raw, but I more so don't want my girl to be sick and be losing nutrients. It used to be so easy...

I gave her some beef with eggshell today, because I don't want another incident with the chicken while I'm at work again tonight. I have this next week off so I can be more available to take her out if she has to go again that bad.

Can I take any kind of stool in for a fecal, even if it's diarrhea? Or do I have to wait until it's more stable?

magicre · Jul 22, 2011

Montana said:
Ya, I'll try that again mag... I feel like I'm having worse issues with the chicken compared to the beef, though. I'm pretty disheartened and it makes me sad... I don't want to give up on raw, but I more so don't want my girl to be sick and be losing nutrients. It used to be so easy...

I gave her some beef with eggshell today, because I don't want another incident with the chicken while I'm at work again tonight. I have this next week off so I can be more available to take her out if she has to go again that bad.

Can I take any kind of stool in for a fecal, even if it's diarrhea? Or do I have to wait until it's more stable?

what i want you to try is boney chicken, not chicken breast....like a chicken back which is high in bone content.

if she does okay with pork, then pork ribs....

beef and egg shell...not sure if that's enough to bind her.....

and yeah...that's what we did with malia when she had giardia...we just scooped it up and put it in a baggie...well, two to be safe LOL...but she had really loose stools and wasn't even on raw yet.

Montana · Jul 23, 2011

I'm getting some more chicken backs today from a different source (I'll try the local grocery store even though they're $4.99/lb... ouch) Last time I had her on chicken backs her poops when from mucous diarrhea to extremely dusty in one day. Those were the ones from the ethnic market. I hope I can get a happy medium.
The only ribs I can find for the life of me are beef... Living in cow town I'm unsure of where to find anything but beef! ;P So far she hasn't had the canon butt since the other morning, if she poops today, it's going in for a fecal!

Thanks for all your help, mag. You're the best!!

magicre · Jul 23, 2011

as long as your chicken backs are not enhanced, i'm not sure it's the chicken or the source.....
and the first thing we need to do is get her stable and not feed too much.

if anything, i would underfeed the first week. if her stools start coming out of her looking like dried poo, then you add a little bit of meat, not an entire chicken quarter, but maybe a strip of breast meat until you find that right ratio.

i know how you feel...i do..i just can't help but feel your frustration...some dogs are easier to transition than others and some have mothers like me who didn't quite get it the first time around....

there is no perfect poo, by the way. much depends on what you're feeding....

if you feed a rich meal, follow with a chicken back...that's basically what my kids get....boney in the morning, in their case it's a drumstick or pork rib....and boneless in the evening....

since i now feed them richer proteins..i don't expect perfect poo or even close anymore....beef and venison and heart and all those richer proteins will cause loose stool...follow it up with boney and it will come back...

overfeed and you'll get loose stools...

in your case, i think we're just starting over....because what happened was you got to the point where you thought you could feed bone once or twice a week, when, in reality, i think time just caught up with the dog....so i'm not so sure you're doing anything wrong...i think you backed off the bone a little too much....now, let's even it out.

magicre · Aug 24, 2011

how are things going?

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