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Discussion Starter #1
I know a slow transition is beneficial when switching dog foods but why is it so important with the PMR diet? Magicre has been helping me at my 2nd attempt with PMR diet with my GSD, Jody, and the transition has been flawless. (Thanks for RFD and Danemama who helped her switch her dogs over!) Besides her encouragement she is always reminding me to slow down and not rush new proteins. I know this is good advice because she and I both were not successful with our first attempt at raw feeding due to overfeeding and adding new proteins too quickly. I understand that a carnivores digestive acids need to slowly build up to different proteins. Can anyone offer more insight on this?

I also find it interesting that when I fed kibble I had no problem sticking with the same starch/protein for months at a time but am not as patient with raw feeding:smile:

Also, I wanted to encourage others who have attempted the PMR diet for their dogs and just thought their dogs couldn't handle it to try it again.
 

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I know a slow transition is beneficial when switching dog foods but why is it so important with the PMR diet? ...{snip}... she and I both were not successful with our first attempt at raw feeding due to overfeeding and adding new proteins too quickly. I understand that a carnivores digestive acids need to slowly build up to different proteins. Can anyone offer more insight on this?
Other than what you just said, I have no more data that I am sure of. Perhaps it takes different enzymes to digest different protein sources and the dog has to "learn" how to make them. I don't know. Thats just a guess.

I always suggest beginning w/ chicken because it's easy to digest, the bones are relatively soft, it's cheap, and its easy to find. I rarely see a problem when people start in this order ... chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef ... THEN organs. In my mind, those are from easiest to digest to more difficult to digest. I have known people who had problems when they begin raw feeding w/ beef before the others. Maybe the fat? I don't know.

What I do know is that it's a process and when you try to shortcut the process, you increase your chances of having digestive upset. I wish I knew the exact reasons.

I also know that in spite of what you read on raw feeding discussion boards, the greatest majority of people who switch their dogs to raw have no problems at all. What do the people with no problems do different? I wish I knew the answer to that. Maybe its the dog and not the human. I don't even know that. :smile:

I also find it interesting that when I fed kibble I had no problem sticking with the same starch/protein for months at a time but am not as patient with raw feeding:smile:
Heck, when I was kibble feeding, I would stick with the same food for years.

Also, I wanted to encourage others who have attempted the PMR diet for their dogs and just thought their dogs couldn't handle it to try it again.
Thank you. :smile:

ETA: I can't remember the last time I made a post with this many "I don't know"s in it. :smile:
 

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I personally think that going slow with adding new proteins in allows you to keep track of what your dog can handle. For example, let's say your dog does really well with chicken and turkey and on week three you add in pork. Then you notice digestive upset. This let's you know that it was the pork and to take it much slower with that protein source. Adding things in one at a time allows you to have more control and more insight to your dogs specific intolerance to certain things.

If you added everything in all willy wonky with no set plan you'd have no idea really what causes digestive upset.

And of course just the fact that you want to avoid cannon butt as much as possible LOL :wink:
 

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i can tell you one thing, from board to board, list to list....

there are more people whose dogs don't transition well than we think there are....

and largely due to human enthusiasm? shall we say?

RFD and Natalie? how many times have you seen 'oh, i've tried raw but my dogs didn't take to it' or they vomited fifty times and had the runs for a hundred years....yes, i'm exaggerating...

they didn't know that it's normal to puke and eat it again, hence the word hork....they didn't know it's usual to have cannon butt...they didn't know what they didn't know.

i certainly didn't.

i read mandypug over at dogforums and i read RFD and a whole bunch of others....and i tried mandypug's instructions to the T.

by the end of the first week, i was cleaning raw chicken bits off the ceiling and sterilising my kitchen and cleaning up cannon butt...

for me? it wasn't worth it....and then i got mad at this wonderful woman who was just trying to help.

there was another forum where a member decided she too was going to switch her dogs.

well, the first night...her dogs did vomit and poo several times and that was that.
she gave it 48 hours and that was that.

i belong to some pretty rigid lists....maybe it is 18k strong, but maybe it would be stronger if the caveats were presented along with the wondrousness of raw.

maybe i wouldn't have quit the first time had someone equivocated that puking is part of adjusting....that bone in stool is normal...that cannon butt results from this or that.

thing is....many people, i believe, go through the honeymoon phase and as soon as the dog reacts it is back to kibble, because 'hell, no, i don't need this'.

i think here's the thing...

if i were going to write a transition for someone....it would include everything that natalie and RFD say...

and i would also include what to expect, whether it's a glory be to g'd transition or the transition from hell, don't give up, it's normal, some dogs go through it....we'll hold your hand.

from a physiological standpoint and what i've researched about a dog's anatomy.....it's perfectly normal to adapt and perfectly normal to take longer.....

in all honesty? i believe my dogs were compromised because of a lack of good bacteria from all the antibiotics they were on....

rather than wait to start raw, probiotics or digestive enzymes in the beginning, probably would have helped some.

i can't imagine how many people we've lost in this raw movement because of their dog's reactions, they get scared because we're scared to begin with.....we think we've killed our dogs...

i'm tense now because my pug is chewing a lamb bone and he doesn't have the dentition for it....but he's learned not to gulp and he's exhausted trying to get every molecule of lamb off that bone...and i'm not in the room, because i don't want my tension to pass to him..

i know that NOW...did i know it before? no.

did i know that giving my dogs too much rich food would give them the runs? oops.

i know it now.

i think, natalie...and RFD..you'd be doing beginners a HUGE favour by including the dogs who are compromised.....whether it's from too many years of kibble....dogs who don't tolerate fat as well as others...

and it's all guess work...but it's educated guess work from years of experience....

that jodysmom is listening to me is astounding.....i'm only passing on what i've learned from RFD and Natalie and other posts i've read and the common sense that is slowly coming to me.....

my dogs haven't even had kidney yet we are going very slowly....i probably don't need to go this slowly anymore....but we are....

and it's from picking and choosing now what i think is okay for MY dogs....

before i got to RFD privately....and then read Natalie's website....i didn't know that dogs could puke, crap, whatever.....and it was no longer going to be easy.
 

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i realise, once again, that i've gone off track, but...

i believe also that dogs must adapt to kibble; therefore, they must adapt to raw....unless they've been started right after weaning.

people who smoke cigarettes go through the same adaptation...some, after quitting, just go on with their lives, some gain weight...some get sick....

it's just another example of how important food is and how important it is to recognise the differences from dog to dog....and their physical and behavioural adaptation.
 

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adding things in one at a time allows you to have more control and more insight to your dogs specific intolerance to certain things.

If you added everything in all willy wonky with no set plan you'd have no idea really what causes digestive upset.
yes!!!!!!!
 

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i can tell you one thing, from board to board, list to list....

there are more people whose dogs don't transition well than we think there are....

and largely due to human enthusiasm? shall we say?
Well, I hate to brag .... no, thats a lie, I love to brag :smile: ... The people who I have helped transistion both in person and via email so rarely have any of those problems as long as they stick to the program. The transistion always goes without a problem. But I am super cautious and super conservative in my methods. All my methods are designed to minimize digestive problems at both ends.

People do tend to rush the process and often when they do, problems creep in. The common things people do wrong is add new protein sources too quickly or feed too large amounts of food.

i can't imagine how many people we've lost in this raw movement because of their dog's reactions, they get scared because we're scared to begin with.....we think we've killed our dogs...
That is probably a true statement.

that jodysmom is listening to me is astounding.....i'm only passing on what i've learned from RFD and Natalie and other posts i've read and the common sense that is slowly coming to me.....
Hehe, early on, I used to think the same thing, "You mean these people actually belive what I'm saying?" The longer you do this the more confidence you will get. Once you have helped 3 or 4 people switch you will have that confidence.

my dogs haven't even had kidney yet we are going very slowly....i probably don't need to go this slowly anymore....but we are....
It's not a big deal if they don't get kidney anytime in their life. Kidney is good for them and they should have it but I doubt you will ever be able to tell the difference in their health one way or the other whether or not they ever eat it. My dog's get kidney very rarely. :smile:

Just keep on doing what you are doing now, Re. Your dogs are doing great and will continue to do so. If something comes up to upset the applecart, it can be fixed.
 

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People on a whole just want to OVERFEED, its what we are taught to do.
 

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chicken backs - start them on chicken backs. Nothing else for a week. And make sure the chicken backs are clean. No organs stuck along the back bone.:wink:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
People on a whole just want to OVERFEED, its what we are taught to do.

I agree it is very tempting to overfeed and rush the transition to a PMR diet. I think a lot of raw feeders have had such disastrous results with kibble we just get so "excited" when our dog is actually doing well on a PMR diet and we want to see the weight gain "right now".

Tami
 

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Re- you do realize that Bill and I were training you to convert newbies didn't you?!?! You're doing a fine job so far! Keep up the good work :wink: :biggrin:
yes.

and you do realise that i want both you and bill to write about the 'what happens when your dog is NOT ideal'....

and i will happily spread the word...oh wait. i already do that.

sometimes, a light switch goes on and i know what i know is right. didn't have to be my idea or my process...but when something is viscerally the way to go, it is the way to go.

i probably go slower than even bill or you recommend, but you both know that my dogs are doing so well...and we progress every week...they eat all kinds of proteins...

they are the poster dogs of parents who did everything wrong, only to come to the light and now do things right.

after each tiny oops....we learn...i know i won't be feeding llama/beef/beef liver/lamb in one day....apparently it gives malia squid ink poo.

once the student graduates...then it's up to observing what works, what doesn't....

but this is what i would like to see on a how to....the section where it all goes wrong...

because we humans don't always get it....jewish mothers born in russia....feed. not so good with newly transitioned dogs, eh? :eek:

people are so scared they are killing their dogs....put a section in about the tension that seeps from us to them as they eat...

bones in poo...in the beginning, it's normal....write about that...

explain the horker....the gulper, the strengthening of the jaw muscles as time goes by...the neck muscles....

bubba tried to swallow a drumstick whole...he doesn't anymore...i can actually feed him an inch of a turkey neck if i want....i don't, but i could..and he will gnaw and crunch now...

we don't get the less is more thing...or time will not hurt, so slow down....

natalie...bill...anyone who has a 'how to'....be emphatic that if it doesn't go as brilliantly as one hopes.....it is not a failure...and then tell us how to fix it...on your websites. pretty please.
 

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I know how it was when I started out, but fortunately for me my dogs took to it very well. I wanted to go very,very fast to try new meat sources, I couldn't wait, shopping, looking, always looking at different meats at the grocery store and stocking up when I saw a sale. This group kept me on track and I didn't once think about quitting but I know it can get frustrating for some who have dogs that are more sensitive than others.

Going to fast and overfeeding really are the 2 biggest problems with transitioning a new raw fed dog to the PMR diet. If we all could just take a "chill pill" everything would work out smoothly! Tami, good luck with Jody, we are always here to help.
 

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natalie...bill...anyone who has a 'how to'....be emphatic that if it doesn't go as brilliantly as one hopes.....it is not a failure...and then tell us how to fix it...on your websites. pretty please.
I will be adding a new page to the website now :wink:
 

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Sam, my purebred bullmastiff puppy went through the transition by the book. Then came Snoopy, the female puppy who was left by the side of the road I adopted (I don't know how many breeds were involved in her bloodline). I didn't pay much attention to her transitioning process (that is wrong, I know) but she was on to chicken, beef, fish, eggs, all the organs within one week. Not a single problem. Because of her arrival Sam realized that if he becomes choosy on his food that they will dissapear and he will not have a second chance.

The only time that both of them had loose poop was when I fed them 2 cans of dog food two weeks back. (it had beef, lamb and some other stuff and was a gift from my sister in law). It was all over the living room when I got up in the morning.
 
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