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I respect your difference of opinion and understand we are all trying to do whats best for our pets. But I honestly could never, from a medical standpoint, recommend giving chicken bones to a dog, I would be concerned with splinters and intestinal obstruction- maybe because I work as a tech and see things like this everyday I am more cautious/aware? Out of curiousity what do raw feeders who breed wean there pups on? I am very interested to know
 

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Chicken bones are only a danger when cooked- thats when they splinter. Otherwise, they are just crunchy, fully digestable and full of nutrients. Join in the raw forum, and you will learn all sorts of stuff you would never imagine.
 

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They wean directly on to raw too. And If my other post seemed rude I apologise. I certainly wouldn't want to drive you away from raw. I am also studying to become a vet too. If you would ever want to test out your opinion to see if it's correct definitely come to the raw side. Being a vet is in a way being a scientist and scientists always ask questions and seek to answer them. You could do a trial and even publish your work or at least have it around. You never know until you try.
 

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I dont want to bash raw because I havent tried it but as a RVT and having a bachelors in animal science I cant say I am conviced of its benefits. The first thing that comes to mind is salmonella, not to mention other nasties that hide in raw meat. It has been argued that the reason humans have evolved from cavemen to modern man is due in part of our ability to "cook" meat, as raw meat can be once again, filled with not so friendly parasites and bacteria. What passes for USDA grade meats in scary now a days, I did a stint as a technician on a USDA inspected farm in central california once and OMG, the way these animals are kept and the gigantic growths and infections on them was disgusting. But thats a whole separate thread in itself... from all my learning and research (acutal university (UCD) research, not just googling crap and declaring myself an expert) dogs are omnivores, they have been domesticated and are no longer carbon copies of wolves. If they were straight carnivores they wouldnt molars for mashing up leaves, plants. Cats are an excellent example of domesticated carnivores.. do a dental prophy on one sometime to see why. I am all for more meat in dogs diet, heck my dogs routinely catch and eat whole squirrels and they love it, but to say a dog should ONLY be on raw meat (which I know many of you arent) is just plain crazy.
Salmonella is not a problem for dogs because of extremely high stomach acids, and a very much shorter digestive system than us. Raw food digests and moves through very fast, so nothing has a chance to just sit around and "build up". We on the other hand have long digestive systems so food sits around in us a lot longer.

Dogs ARE still wolf decendants. All the way from the teeth to the stomach. In fact, I believe they share 98% of the same DNA if I'm not mistaken.
 

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I respect your difference of opinion and understand we are all trying to do whats best for our pets. But I honestly could never, from a medical standpoint, recommend giving chicken bones to a dog, I would be concerned with splinters and intestinal obstruction- maybe because I work as a tech and see things like this everyday I am more cautious/aware? Out of curiousity what do raw feeders who breed wean there pups on? I am very interested to know
Go to the raw forum, and there is a sticky or two on weaning puppies onto raw, and feeding pregnant ones also.
 

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I dont want to bash raw because I havent tried it but as a RVT and having a bachelors in animal science I cant say I am conviced of its benefits. The first thing that comes to mind is salmonella, not to mention other nasties that hide in raw meat. It has been argued that the reason humans have evolved from cavemen to modern man is due in part of our ability to "cook" meat, as raw meat can be once again, filled with not so friendly parasites and bacteria. What passes for USDA grade meats in scary now a days, I did a stint as a technician on a USDA inspected farm in central california once and OMG, the way these animals are kept and the gigantic growths and infections on them was disgusting. But thats a whole separate thread in itself... from all my learning and research (acutal university (UCD) research, not just googling crap and declaring myself an expert) dogs are omnivores, they have been domesticated and are no longer carbon copies of wolves. If they were straight carnivores they wouldnt molars for mashing up leaves, plants. Cats are an excellent example of domesticated carnivores.. do a dental prophy on one sometime to see why. I am all for more meat in dogs diet, heck my dogs routinely catch and eat whole squirrels and they love it, but to say a dog should ONLY be on raw meat (which I know many of you arent) is just plain crazy.

You cannot compare apples to oranges.

Humans chose to cook the meat and eat it. We don't see wolves making campfires do we?

Humans may have shaped and moulded wolves to look like the dogs of today but they did not change their insides. There are thousands of dogs that THRIVE on a raw diet (my 3 included), you cannot sit there and stubbornly state that its not okay, when it CLEARLY is perfectly alright for these dogs to eat what they are meant to eat. I have a chihuahua that eats the same thing my pitbull and my heeler mix eat. He has no issues digesting bone. Just because he is smaller doesn't not make his tummy any less capable.

Before kibble came along, what did dogs eat? Kibble was created FOR THE HUMAN. It is more convenient for us, that is the only reason kibble was created.

Humans have molars set up for being omnivores and eating plant matter, dogs simply DO NOT have flat molars for that process. Dogs have ripper and tearers to eat MEAT.

It really truly is as easy as that. :wink:
 

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i respect your opinion and i understand why it's different....but if you could go through your records where you work, please tell me how many dogs have come in with an obstruction due to raw bones or raw anything. i am not talking about cooked bones. they are a no no.
Not disregarding anything else you said because it was a great post, but THIS would be something that I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see the vets pull out and show us.

If raw bones are the main culprit, well then I'll eat my shorts!
 

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I feed raw - meat, bone and organ only. I wean my puppies straight from mom's milk to raw whole chicken - meat, organ and bone. It is of course ground until they get enough length of tooth to tear their meat themselves. I have kept half of both my most current litters and all the pups have been to vets for checkup and blood work and also evaluated by other breeders and judges for structure and soundness. One litter is 18 months old and the 11 months old. The pups who were kept on raw far outshine their kibble fed counterparts. My old dogs act like pups, a mild case of arthritis in the shoulder of my 13 year old 85 pound collie which I feel is nature taking it's course. He probably should have passed had I not switched him to raw if only because of his size and age.

The medical/veterinary professions I am sorry to say have not had my dogs nor my nutritional health in hand. I love my vet in that he takes care of my pets in case of accident or injury - and respects the alternative feeding and holistic care they regularly receive. Medical doctors know about as much about nutrition as most vets do which is very little. You should check the raw forum and at least get more information.

If you cannot advocate a raw diet on the off chance of a bone obstructions or salmonella - then you should really not endorse kibble as many, many have been recalled for salmonella, e-coli, etc. You should very sternly advocate against letting dogs have raw hides, chew toys, tennis balls, access to the home in general as there have been many more cases of obstruction from clothing as these other items as well as cooked bones as you will ever see by raw bones. Please take the time to research and balance your statements. You don't have to endorse raw feeding - but to deny it's benefits due to a small risk without considering these other more potentially dangerous risks is wrong. I will not endorse kibble, processed foods, vaccinations or topical treatments of any kind for my dogs because I have seen the damage first hand. JMHO :)
 

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I feed raw to my boys, and I eat raw myself (bar the bones obv ;) ) so the salmonella thing is quite frankly b******* to me :suspicious: if i can manage it then i'm sure my little carnivores will be fine.

I'm sorry but vets are not nutritionists, and shouldn't be endorsing kibble if worries about salmonella etc with the amount of recalls!
 

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Yikes! I think I know you.

In fact, I am sure of it.

I am so, so glad I started ignoring the recommendations of my vet.

Seems to my like a bunch of dry dog food was just recalled for salmonella. And aflatoxin. And oh goodness, let's not forget about the melamine, and the diseased animals, and the stuff they put in there that causes lifelong allergies. And whoops, what about the kidney failures of "unknown origin?"

Seems like vets should do more research on the dangers of dry food than telling people how horrible raw bones are. But then, darn, how would they justify making money off all the Science Diet?

Such a dilemma....
 

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who owns chicken soup for the soul dog food and i think canidae....weren't they just recalled for salmonella?

i too get them mixed up.
I think Diamond is chicken soup and Champion is canidae - however, as everyone knows I'm half senile.
 

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I respect your difference of opinion and understand we are all trying to do whats best for our pets. But I honestly could never, from a medical standpoint, recommend giving chicken bones to a dog, I would be concerned with splinters and intestinal obstruction- maybe because I work as a tech and see things like this everyday I am more cautious/aware?
I have worked for 2 different vets for a total of 7 yrs. I, too, was completely against the idea of feeding raw and highly recommended Eukanuba, Science Diet & Royal Canin. After sitting through a lunch & learn with Nature's Variety, my mind was completely changed. If the thought of a possible obstruction or GI perforation is all that is holding you back from feeding raw, that's SO easy to remedy! You could try a pre-packaged raw diet like Nature's Variety or Northwest Naturals. If you wanted to go cheaper and do strictly PMR, you can either buy the pre-ground meat/bone mixes (like Oma's Pride) or you could grind your own necks, backs, etc. I swear, if you seriously try just raw for 1 month, the change in your pet's stool would be enough to sell you on raw! I'm a firm believer in it now and will be starting my Great Dane pup on it as soon as we get her at 5-6 wks. I'm also going to try and transition my severe food allergy Mini Doxie onto the PMR with meats he tested ok with.
 
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