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Why not?

28K views 187 replies 30 participants last post by  CorgiPaws 
#1 ·
I'm just curious (and certainly not trying to attack anyone), why don't some people feed raw?

I see a lot of people say, "I'm just not ready to do it." or "I just don't want to." So I'm just wondering what some of those reasons are. Why are some people not ready to and not sure they ever will be (come on this is feeding your dog, not having a baby). Some people say they just don't want to, but it's not like someone's asking you to kill your mom or do drugs.

Sorry if this thread offends anyone, but I get these ambiguous answers a lot when I'm trying to convince people to stop feeding their dogs crappy kibble food too, yet I know all you kibble feeders would happily side with me on that argument. So when you're ripping your hair out wondering why your dog won't eat the kibble you put down, or gets horrendous bouts of diarrhea from it or other health issues, or has the world's worst food allergies and can only eat a certain brand at a certain time but only if it's purchased from a certain store, I guess the only question left is: why not try it?

Believe me, I'm not trying to bully anyone into converting to raw, I'm simply curious. And maybe your answers can help me answer the doubts of other people out there who are frustrated with kibble but refuse to go raw for reasons unknown. Or even people who are frustrated with Pedigree but refuse to upgrade because "well my dog's been on it his whole life and I just don't want to change, even if he does have cancer, dry skin, excessive shedding, raging ear infections, is morbidly obese, and can barely walk." (not that any of you are on that boat, but you'd be surprised how many idiots I find who are like that... or maybe you wouldn't be surprised)
 
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#2 · (Edited)
No offense taken! For me, at this point, since I'm "kinda" looking into it, it's a matter of laziness. Kibble is just easier to scoop out and put down on the floor. And, it seems like a lot of work to figure out what to get when feeding raw.... this could be wrong but I'm real confused. I didn't think bones were good for dogs and yet it's ok for them to eat chicken necks (??) And, then, when I think about it there's the mess raw chicken makes and I'd be constantly cleaning. (And, they (I don't know who they are) always say clean your hands after handling chicken before handling any other food, bla, bla, bla. So, what does that do to my floor?) These are just a few of my concerns. Don't knock me cuz I want to feed kibble :smile: and when these bouts of diarrhea (or something) come about my first inclination is to change kibble until it stops. AND, I have a small home and wouldn't have the room to freeze whatever it is they will eat and then package it for them. Kibble is just a "neater" package at the moment. It's simple and fast. I like neat, simple and fast.

I applaud all of you who go raw. I'm sure it is the best way to go. Just not sure I want to mess w/it. CHANGE IS HARD and kibble is easy.

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. I wouldn't know if they were getting the right percentages of what they need, i.e. vitamins, etc. to be healthy.

Just my opinion for me. :biggrin:
 
#3 ·
for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness.
 
#4 ·
I think people are strictly looking for convenience, I knew that I would have to go raw with my BT's, it was a matter of getting all the stuff I needed first. I bought them their own freezer, 40lbs of chicken backs(they won't eat them so i have 20 ibs left) stocking up on other stuff,like heart, liver venison, pork roast etc, I just like to be prepared. But, when I suggest to my friends and family that they should go raw for different health reasons, they think I'm crazy no matter what I say to back it up. I love my dogs and would do anything for them, especially if it means prolonging their life.
 
#5 ·
I have no qualms with feeding raw. My dogs constantly get raw snacks from when I'm cooking or leftovers. At this point, the raw is too expensive (I still haven't found one of thos butcher shops that let you buy bulk directly from them). Once I do, I fully intend on switching and am apart of this site purely for that information once I finally have the resources to do so. Kibble at this point is just cheaper.
 
#7 ·
I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate? I've done everything from Pedigree to Orijen to Honest Kitchen to breed specific home cooked diets. (and my Pedigree fed German shepherd dog lived to be over 13 years old and was healthy her entire life). I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance. I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate. lol
 
#8 ·
Let me preface this post by saying I'm not knocking anyone. I'm just trying to answer some concerns.

I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate?
Very inferior. Some of the blends may be a little better than kibble. Some aren't as good a kibble. Mostly they are some small amount of meat with a LOT of veggies and fruits which are entirely inappropriate to feed to dogs. Hehe, one thing I noticed on thier website ... 4 of their products use hormone free chicken or turkey. What they fail to tell you is that ALL chicken and turkey are hormone free. You can go to any grocery store, randomly pick up a package of chicken or turkey parts or whole birds and it will be hormone free.

I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance.
Check out my web page in the sig in this post and you will see just how not complicated it is. :)

I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate.
Yet you are alive and I assume, somewhat healthy. Makes you wonder how important those numbers are, doesn't it? :smile:

hanksta13: "For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need.
I've been raw feeding for nearly 7 years now. I take no special precautions about bacteria except to wash my hands when I finish handling the meat. I assume you handle raw meat several times a week. Your dog's meat wouldn't be any different. My dogs love to kiss me, my wife, children and grandchildren. No one who has ever been in my house in the last 7 years has ever gotten sick from the dog's food or the dogs. They eat most meals off the floor and i don't used any sanitiation precautions. Germs are just not a problem with raw fed dogs. It's an non-issue and usually bothers only people who have never fed a real raw diet.

The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.

PeanutsMommy"for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness."
A good source to begin is a grocery store. I'm sure you have one pretty near you. :smile: My grocery store for the last 3 weeks has had chicken leg quarters on sale for $.59/lb. I have bought about 30 lbs each week. About 3 weeks ago they had Boston Butt Roast on sale for $1.59/lb. I bought 3 of those each week for a month. Just keep your eye out for sales, and you can get stuff pretty reasonable.

Try small independent grocery stores that sell meat. Talk to the owner or meat manager and explain to him that you would like to buy meat by the case. If he does't want to ask him where he buys his meat and go there. Also check ethnic markets and check for a raw feeding co-op in your area. I guarantee you that you can feed raw MUCH cheaper than the kibble you are now feeding. My meats average cost is around $.73/lb.

Y'all check out my web page in my sig if you haven't already and you will see what is involved and how simple it is.
 
#9 ·
My dog is doing great on Honest kitchen "Preference". I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome. Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly. Sometimes when I get in a pinch or a rush, I feed her a high grade kibble, which I am always researching, but I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me. Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.

UC Davis: Spotlight: Fueling Fido
 
#11 ·
I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome.
I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:

Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly.
You could be describing my nearly 9 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten a veggie or fruit in nearly 7 years. Her diet consists of nothing but meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me.
Hehe, we agree on that.

Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.
I found it full of a lot of errors, misinformation, and half truths. You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them. I know that you found statements on that page that you have problems with. The first two topics on their page say absolutely nothing more than dog food companies make dog food.

The first half of the 3rd topic says nothing until it makes this statement " ... it is really important that pet owners work with their veterinarians to make these decisions." The problem is that vets have to take only one nutrition course the whole time they are in vet school and it is a course about animal nutrition. Thats all animals, cows, horses, cats, pigs, goats, AND DOGS. Unfortunately, vets have no more nutritional training than the average person on the street. Your vet is the last person you want to consult with about feeding your dog. All he will do is look at some promotional material from one or more dog food companies.

“One of the biggest risks is using a recipe that hasn’t been formulated and balanced by a trained veterinary nutritionist,” Fascetti said. “We certainly can see problems of nutritional deficiencies both in dogs and cats eating diets that do not contain all the nutrients that they need.” That translates into "You are not smart enough to feed your dog. You must come to us and let us formulate a diet specifically for your dog." If you can feed yourself and your family without hiring a nutritionist, you can feed your dog.

“There is no evidence to support that feeding a raw diet compared to a home-prepared, cooked diet, has any additional benefits,” she said, noting that uncooked foods also carry a higher risk of contamination with harmful bacteria such as Salmonella or E. coli. “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” Of course there is no research on raw food for dogs because who would pay for it? Not the dog food companies. Dogs/wolves have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years and thrived. They have eaten both fresh kill and carrion. These people stress the dangers of bacteria (I have never seen a dog food company debate raw without bring that up) but they fail to mention how cooking destroys a lot of nutrients and makes digestion much more difficult. My dogs have eaten road kill squirrels that have been dead for days if not weeks several times with no adverse consequences. Germs are not a problem with feeding a dog a raw diet. The only people who say there is a problem with bacteria are the ones who have never fed a raw diet in their lives.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they make sense to you. Go read my page. :smile:
 
#16 ·
I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:


Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:

You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them
.

They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article. They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed? They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet. Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats. When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.
 
#18 ·
Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:
Yeah, I just checked my email and answered yours.

They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article.
What they say is “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” ... They also say that you shouldn't feed a Homemade diet without having a vet nutritionist check it first like you aren't smart enough to feed your own dog. Hehe what baloney. :smile:

They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed?
Not a particular dog food company but dog foods in general. The overall message I get from the page is "don't feed your dog a homemade diet without consulting a nutritionist." Most people won't do that so the only other option is to feed commercial dog food.

They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet.
But they also say we aren't capable of doing that. We must depend on them or feed commercial food.

Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats.
Then why don't they research on which is the best diet, prey model raw, BARF, kibble, canned, cooked homemade? Because they know kibble and canned will come out on the bottom.

Why don't they research on how much more nutritious raw food is compared to cooked? Because they know raw is more nutritious and will make commercial dog food look bad.

Why don't they research and see what effect bacteria such as salmonella and e-coli actually have on dogs? Because they known it has no effect most of their argument against raw will go away.

Why don't they research on what effects a lack of carbs have on dogs? Because they know dogs have no need for carbs and that will make commercial food that is high in carbs more difficult to sell.

If they are really interested on what's best for dogs and cats, why don't they do some research that will actually benefit them? Because the dog food companies will look bad everytime.

When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.
Dog food industry is no different than other industries. Many industries contribute heavily to colleges and universities. The beneficiaries of these contributions know if they want the contributions to continue, they can't rock the boat. I'm not picking on UC Davis. ALL colleges and universities play the same game.
 
#12 ·
What is so horrible about giving a dog something she/he likes? Fresh vegetables, fruits, etc. I'm not saying I'm going to turn my dog into a vegetarian but along with a healthy meat diet?? I see nothing wrong with it. My dogs love it, my mom's dogs love it, and none of them have ever had any health issues because of it so what does make it such a horrible thing to feed your dog some fruits and veggies?
 
#14 ·
Theres nothing wrong with giving them some fruit and veggies for snacks or treats, they just aren't going to get anything nutritional from it. My BT's love to have a piece of apple when I have one, or some carrots.
 
#19 ·
I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me. Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment. Anyways can we even compare the two? That would be like comparing me to a cave man, although sometimes my wife does! We will just have to agree to disagree.:cool:

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
(I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.
The difference is that cooked meat has all the enzymes and nutrition cooked out of it so their pancreas still has to secrete extra enzymes so they can digest it which weakens their immune system along with the rest of their body. I've gone over this before in other threads so I won't go into detail again here.

Also, when you feed a strictly home cooked meal, since you're cooking the bones, you can't feed them to dogs which destroys the calcium/phosphorus ratio so your dog isn't getting enough calcium, hence the reason why home cooked feeders usually have to supplement with either calcium or kibble in order to balance their meals and raw feeders do not.

Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.
Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings.

We will just have to agree to disagree.:cool:
I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
(I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.
Some dogs are predisposed to live longer than others. I've also read somewhere that dogs have the ability to live into their 20s with proper diet and exercise. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that one. Of course that would vary depending on the breed, size, and health of the dog as well.

I just hate it when people get this mentality that their perfectly healthy dog is practically knocking on death's door when they're 10 years old and they've practically written them off as dead already, when it's really only middle age for dogs. That's like telling someone who's 50 that they might as well start picking out a coffin because they'll be dead any day now (depends on the person, and their diet and health habits too though, I suppose).

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.
As do I!
 
#23 ·
Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest
.

Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and
I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.:biggrin:
Originally Posted by hanksta13
We will just have to agree to disagree.
I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid.
I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings.
I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on. Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet. My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great. I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.:eek:
It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
 
#24 ·
.
Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and
I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.
I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well. And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion:wink:

I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on.
Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?

Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.
Why not? I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk, but it doesn't mean they couldn't eat it just the same. I bet I eat a very similar diet to what my ancestors ate and I bet you do too: meat/protein, veggies, carbs. Why can't dogs? In fact, the main causes of health problems in humans these days is that they eat too much processed/modern food and not enough healthy and natural foods. It seems as though the same applies in dogs as well. Too much processed foods, not enough real foods.

My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great.
But why? Your dog is a carnivore, you are an omnivore (unless you think that's just an opinion too). If you agree with that then why would you think your dog should eat the same things you do? And if that's the case, why don't you just eat what you feed your dog every day? Mmmm a little Honest Kitchen for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every single day.

I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.
I'm still pretty sure that Royal Canin sponsors most of the veterinary programs and vet nutritionist programs at UC Davis. Even if they don't push that brand every time in particular, their research will still all be based off of what RC has researched which his whatever they can to "prove" that dogs are onmivores and can survive on a diet filled with grains. Yes, they can survive, but it is appropriate? And should survival be your only goal? And does it count as survival if your dog dies 9 years before his/her normal life expectancy from cancer, kidney failure, etc.

And again, it's not a "conspiracy theory" if it's true!


It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
It makes me sad too :frown:
I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription food they were telling us she had to have or she'd die. Guess what? It's been a year since she's been on SD and over 6 months since she's been on raw and she's the healthiest and happiest she's ever been since she was a puppy.

The bottom line is: you can probably trust your vet to operate on your dog and save it's life in cases of severe illness or injury, but when it comes to most other things, take it with a grain of salt.
 
#25 ·
And the beat goes on!

I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well.
Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:
And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm
It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.


I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion
I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists? And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.

Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?
No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic. A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog. I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.

I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk
,!
LOL, That would be very funny!:smile:

It makes me sad too
I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription
I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.
 
#31 ·
And the beat goes on!
But of course!

Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:
No, this isn't a human nutrition forum and I'm a vegetarian, so I suppose if I really wanted to only eat raw, I could probably do just fine and not have to worry about salmonella or e.coli (except as it breaks out in spinach and peanuts and everything else in the world!). I'm just saying that cooking food isn't necessary for dogs because they don't have a problem with the bacteria and neither do a lot of people who bother to try it. Because you said "We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria and parasites. It's SAFER." in reference to why you feed cooked meat to your dogs. And I said that's not a valid reason to cook it for your dogs because dogs don't have problems with those things. That's what I said, stop trying to dance around it :smile:

It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.
What?

I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists?
No, we are people who have our dogs' best interests at heart, not brain-washed people getting paid by dog food companies. You caught me. Vets tell me Science Diet is the best thing I can feed my dog, yet I've seen multiple dogs, including my own, fall apart on it and do very poorly.

Some say seeing is believing. Since I've switched to raw, my dogs' poops have gotten smaller, more compact, and more biodegradable. Their teeth have almost no plaque left on them, their breath smells better, their coats are healthier, and they seem more happy and energetic. I see raw working.

When my dogs were on kibble, I saw them constantly shedding, they had dry flakey skin, their teeth had a lot of plaque build-up starting, and they were always mysteriously getting sick. I've see much worse on other kibble-fed dogs.

I even had one lady boast she was feeding raw by feeding the Honest Kitchen. Yet she complained about the incredible amounts of poop her dogs produce. When I told her about how I do prey model raw and my dogs barely poop at all and the quality and quantity of the poop are a reflection of how well the dog is digesting the food, she looked at me like I had three heads.

And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.
Umm kay, that's your choice.


No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic.
Hundreds of years is not very long in evolutionary terms. While their outward appearances may have changed, they are still carnivores descended from wolves with the same digestive tract.


A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog.
And yet all dogs still have the ability to hunt and kill things. I've also met wolves who have been raised as pets, are you going to tell me their digestive tracts changed as soon as they became domesticated as well?


I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.
How do you know a dog's digestive system has evolved past that of a wolf's? That's just your opinion. Dogs will also eat whatever they can find too. It's not just some dogs doing well on raw, it's thousands, probably millions. What do you think strays and feral dogs eat? I'm guessing it isn't kibble and I'm also guessing that if they do come across raw meat either by hunting it (because yes, they can still do that), or finding it, I can guarantee you they don't cook it first.

And as far as a domesticated dog doing just as well on a cooked diet, that is also debatable. Their teeth probably won't be as clean naturally, their stools will probably be larger which is a sign that their food is less digestible, and who knows what else is going on in their bodies that isn't going right until one day it collapses?


LOL, That would be very funny!
Yes. I imagine a pack of shih tzus bringing down an elk would be very funny to watch. Like being attacked by a swarm of wigs, I'm sure.



I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
I remember at one point you were seriously considering going raw, did your vet have something to do with changing your mind? As I recall, you have the most wonderful situation set up to do so, fresh meat to feed to your dogs at your fingertips daily. Might I also add, I'll take any of the "icky" parts you don't want to eat or feed to your dog :biggrin:


They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.
There is no doubt in my mind that these people all cared, they just don't know any better because their education made sure they didn't know any better. And ignorance can be just as dangerous as not caring. Like I said, I'll trust them if my dog sustains an injury or gets some sort of illness, but when it comes to nutrition, unless they're telling me something other than what I've read on all the dog food labels, I'm not going to trust them on it.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.
But fun! I hope you're having fun too. I was once a kibble/cooked food feeder through and through for all the same reasons. I'm not saying that means you have to come around to raw eventually, I'm just saying that I'm very adept at both sides of the argument and I can understand certain concerns (lack of freezer space and place to put a freezer I can't really refute, everything else is pretty easy). I'm hoping that I might be able to help people see that there are two sides to this argument and maybe help them decide if raw is right for them or not. I'm not trying to force anyone into anything. But if you say something I don't agree with, I will debate it happily :smile:
 
#27 ·
I'm pretty sure that no one here has said vets are experts in nutrition or that there are no studies behind raw. This is a controversial thread on why or why not we feed our dogs raw. We have our differences of opinions. You think you're right, they think they're right. Does it really matter? I've seen dogs live healthy lives to age 15 and beyond so what does it matter what the heck these dogs are eating? With the right care, an animal could probably live to be friggin 30. Doesn't mean I'm switching to raw or staying with kibble or mixing and matching.
 
#28 ·
There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.
Thanks. You can email if u want. I don't know if this forum shows emails.

I never said "all vets were experts in nutrition", I said the the veterinary nutritionists at UC Davis were experts. I know my vet knows a lot about nutrition, she's not an "expert" but I value her opinion. And she see's a lot of dogs.
 
#33 · (Edited)
Alright, I know you guys are just having a blast going back and forth, but I wanted to step in and slow it down for a minute :)

My shepherd/lab mix is about 8 months old now and I have been reading this board pretty diligently for the last couple days. I came across this thread and was pretty curious as to just what Brian (the furkid) thought about raw meat himself. I bought a bag of chicken leg quarters and some chicken livers sitting in it's blood. I anxiously brought it home and loaded him up. I put a quarter of chicken and a little bit of liver on top of about a half cup of kibble and let him have it. He was very hesitant to eat it. He sniffed around, licked a couple times on it, and walked away. He just didn't seem interested in it.

Well, I sat down with him next to the bowl and tore off some more "ergonomic" pieces to make it easier to eat and he still wasn't interested. I put him outside with the food by himself hoping that it was just the distractions of the household that was making him iffy about the food, but all he did was play with it like he does his tug toy. He dragged it around the yard and threw it around. He didn't even try and eat it. Instead, after pulling all the meat out, he ate the little bit of kibble in the bottom of the bowl and laid down for a nap like he usually does after dinner.

I feed him Natural Balance topped with Solid Gold Seameal, sometimes I mix it with a can of NB L.I.D. wetfood and he devours it. Anyways, do I need to cheat somehow to get him interested in the food? Even the piece I tore off he just picked up, walked off and set it down in the other room.

Anyways, sorry to interrupt, but I was hoping you guys had a solution to offer :) The debate is teaching me a lot from both sides. Keep it up :wink:
 
#34 ·
It's not unusual for dogs to act like yours. I don't know why. Either they don't understand it's food or this is food just like stuff they have been fussed at in the past for even sniffing. Put a quarter down for him to eat at each meal. If he doesn't eat it in 10 minutes, take it up, put it in the fridge and feed it again next meal. It won' t take him long to figure out what it is.

One trick you might try is to quickly sear the quarter to bring out some flavor. By searing, I mean put it in a hot pan for about 3 seconds. Another trick is to "ribbon" some of the meat so he can get hold of it pretty easily.

Keep trying. He will eat it soon.
 
#35 ·
Once he realizes it's food, he'll probably go to town on the meat, but it's very common for dogs not to realize it's food. My dogs actually tried to avoid me at first when I offered it to them since they'd always been yelled at before for even looking at "people food" they probably thought it was a test of wills or something.

Anyway, searing it is a good idea, it will remind him of cooked meat he's maybe tried before, then he'll realize it's food and love it. You can also try cutting off a bite-sized chunk of meat first and offering it to him like a treat. That way he can also associate raw chicken with food.

Oh and PS you're awesome for being willing to try it out so quickly! Keep it up, I'm sure he'll figure it out soon!
 
#37 ·
Ok my own question: Am I going to switch my pups to raw immediately or do I change her over to raw just like I would if I were changing kibble to kibble? I'm pretty sure my Mom asked this question when she was asking about raw but that was long ago and I don't feel like thumbing through the threads to try and find it LOL Thanks! (As for Vets, mine's pretty idiotic on nutrition too. He wanted me to switch to Dads or Purina...No thanks)
 
#40 ·
I suggest beginning with the items I list first for good reason. Chicken is easy to diges and the bones are relatively soft and plyable. Chicken backs are very heavy in bone. Bone is a constipator so this decreases the chances of diarrhea when switching. It will quickly give you very small firm little stools right off the bat. Turkey is similar to chicken so you go three weeks feeding easily digestable food with relatively soft bones so the dogs adjust to eating real food pretty easily and by the time they get to more difficult to digest food with more dense bones, they are ready for it.
 
#41 ·
Thats amazing! Now all I need is a mini freezer and I can start! Maybe i'll buy weekly for the time being just to get her started all that much quicker. As for Duckie, can he eat all that righ tnow? He's only 3 months old. Is there a different sort of raw diet he should be on?
 
#42 ·
You'll probably need more than a mini freezer. Also backs will be difficult to find. You might start your search for them now. You will almost certainly have to by back by the 40lb case unless you can find an ethnic market nearby. You may not be able to find backs at all. In that case, start with quarters and feed them for 2 weeks before adding in the turkey. You will probably have to get a store to special order the backs for you. Explain to them you want a whole case and they will be more willing to add them to their normal order for you.

Yes Duckie can eat raw food right now. I don't remember what breed he is but if he's pretty small, it might be best to start him on chicken wings instead of backs. I started my Thor the day I brought him home when he was 12 weeks old but he was 26lbs and started off with backs with no problem. He was eating quarters when he was 13 weeks old. You will just have to size the animal parts to match the dog. With some good kitchen shears you may be able to cut backs in half.
 
#46 · (Edited)
You guys are awesome. This is probably a bad comparison because I don't know how popular he is, but you two (rannmiller and RFD) are like the Eric Latendre of dog food. He's just a normal guy that is passionate about his pets and has spent countless hours researching positive reinforcement and has now created a website community to teach his findings.

Anyways, I'm going to try the searing trick tonight. I just came back from the vet because brian's heavy breathing had me concerned and scared for heartworms. The vet said he doesn't know what I'm feeding him right now, but whatever it was he wasn't getting enough sugar intake for this developing time in his life and that's why he was always taking so long to catch his breath after his playtime. Strong heart, clean blood, just low in the blood sugar.

So, with that said, I'm very willing to jump into this RAW diet. Couldn't hurt, right? :wink:



Just wanted to say kudos to hanksta, too. You put up a lot of good points. I love to see that I'm not the only one out there that cares enough about their pet to exert so much energy into loving them :biggrin:
 
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