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I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.
Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest.

Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better.
As well if not better than what? Like they live now? Well now they don't have regular meals. They can and often do go days without eating. Even knowing that, I still think they would be better off with raw meat, bones, and organs.

A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.
The biggest killer of adult wild wolves is bullets. I think about 50% of wild wolves die before thier first birthday. That would bring average lifespan down A LOT. I could be wrong about the 50% but it's a lot.

Anyways can we even compare the two?
Not if all you are looking at is nutrition.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands, (I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse.
My Grandfather died at 91 and smoked until the day he died. Think the cigarettes are what caused him to have a long life?

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.
Me TOO!! :smile:
 
Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest
.

Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and
I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.:biggrin:
Originally Posted by hanksta13
We will just have to agree to disagree.
I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid.
I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings.
I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on. Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet. My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great. I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.:eek:
It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
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Then why is it humans don't eat raw chicken? We all know cooking food diminishes the nutrients, But I have been eating cooked food all my life and
I'm fine. My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.
I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well. And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion:wink:

I mentioned that when I said "wolves life span is probably a bit shorter due to enviornment". Anyways, I think that's a bad comparison(wolves and domestic dogs)My bad. Domestic dogs were engineered by humans to be pets, companions and so on.
Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?

Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.
Why not? I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk, but it doesn't mean they couldn't eat it just the same. I bet I eat a very similar diet to what my ancestors ate and I bet you do too: meat/protein, veggies, carbs. Why can't dogs? In fact, the main causes of health problems in humans these days is that they eat too much processed/modern food and not enough healthy and natural foods. It seems as though the same applies in dogs as well. Too much processed foods, not enough real foods.

My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat. I make sure that her food has the proper nutrients and she is great.
But why? Your dog is a carnivore, you are an omnivore (unless you think that's just an opinion too). If you agree with that then why would you think your dog should eat the same things you do? And if that's the case, why don't you just eat what you feed your dog every day? Mmmm a little Honest Kitchen for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every single day.

I am not a Veterinary nutritionist, I don't know if you guys are, I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say. I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs. And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday. If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.
I'm still pretty sure that Royal Canin sponsors most of the veterinary programs and vet nutritionist programs at UC Davis. Even if they don't push that brand every time in particular, their research will still all be based off of what RC has researched which his whatever they can to "prove" that dogs are onmivores and can survive on a diet filled with grains. Yes, they can survive, but it is appropriate? And should survival be your only goal? And does it count as survival if your dog dies 9 years before his/her normal life expectancy from cancer, kidney failure, etc.

And again, it's not a "conspiracy theory" if it's true!


It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
It makes me sad too :frown:
I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription food they were telling us she had to have or she'd die. Guess what? It's been a year since she's been on SD and over 6 months since she's been on raw and she's the healthiest and happiest she's ever been since she was a puppy.

The bottom line is: you can probably trust your vet to operate on your dog and save it's life in cases of severe illness or injury, but when it comes to most other things, take it with a grain of salt.
 
And the beat goes on!

I've actually heard of people who eat strictly raw foods including raw meat and they thrive as well.
Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:
And dogs don't have a problem with bacteria in meat, so that's not really a valid excuse for why they cook their meat...oh no wait, they don't. Hmmmm
It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.


I suppose if you count an opinion as something backed up by fact, then yes, I am stating my opinion
I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists? And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.

Wait, are we talking about dogs or robots now?
No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic. A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog. I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.

I mean, sure, you'd never see a pack of Shih Tzus take down an elk
,!
LOL, That would be very funny!:smile:

It makes me sad too
I've met vets who make dogs worse going out than they were coming in. I've met vets who can't diagnose a dog overeating and assume it's either pancreatitis or salmonella. I've met vets who know so little about nutrition they think that Pedigree and Kibbles N Bits are great foods. I've met vets who poisoned my dog for 8 years and made her fall apart and have chronic yeast infections in her ears before they would finally admit to me that it was probably a food allergy caused by the SD prescription
I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.
 
I'm pretty sure that no one here has said vets are experts in nutrition or that there are no studies behind raw. This is a controversial thread on why or why not we feed our dogs raw. We have our differences of opinions. You think you're right, they think they're right. Does it really matter? I've seen dogs live healthy lives to age 15 and beyond so what does it matter what the heck these dogs are eating? With the right care, an animal could probably live to be friggin 30. Doesn't mean I'm switching to raw or staying with kibble or mixing and matching.
 
There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.
Thanks. You can email if u want. I don't know if this forum shows emails.

I never said "all vets were experts in nutrition", I said the the veterinary nutritionists at UC Davis were experts. I know my vet knows a lot about nutrition, she's not an "expert" but I value her opinion. And she see's a lot of dogs.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
What do vet's learn about nutrition


Pottenger Study

There's 2 articles i think you should look at before you say that vets are experts in nutrition and that there are no studies behind raw. I have more studies, but they're on my work computer and i don't have them bookmarked here, i'll see if i can find them later though.
Please post them on the forum somewhere, I'd love to read them!
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
And the beat goes on!
But of course!

Don't tell me your gonna try and convince me to switch to raw now?
Sorry, I thrive on cooked food. And Sushi:biggrin:
No, this isn't a human nutrition forum and I'm a vegetarian, so I suppose if I really wanted to only eat raw, I could probably do just fine and not have to worry about salmonella or e.coli (except as it breaks out in spinach and peanuts and everything else in the world!). I'm just saying that cooking food isn't necessary for dogs because they don't have a problem with the bacteria and neither do a lot of people who bother to try it. Because you said "We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria and parasites. It's SAFER." in reference to why you feed cooked meat to your dogs. And I said that's not a valid reason to cook it for your dogs because dogs don't have problems with those things. That's what I said, stop trying to dance around it :smile:

It's not an excuse. I don't care because I cook my dogs meat.
What?

I have yet to see a fact that says feeding raw is better. I v'e only heard it from u guys. Are you guys Veterinary Nutritionists?
No, we are people who have our dogs' best interests at heart, not brain-washed people getting paid by dog food companies. You caught me. Vets tell me Science Diet is the best thing I can feed my dog, yet I've seen multiple dogs, including my own, fall apart on it and do very poorly.

Some say seeing is believing. Since I've switched to raw, my dogs' poops have gotten smaller, more compact, and more biodegradable. Their teeth have almost no plaque left on them, their breath smells better, their coats are healthier, and they seem more happy and energetic. I see raw working.

When my dogs were on kibble, I saw them constantly shedding, they had dry flakey skin, their teeth had a lot of plaque build-up starting, and they were always mysteriously getting sick. I've see much worse on other kibble-fed dogs.

I even had one lady boast she was feeding raw by feeding the Honest Kitchen. Yet she complained about the incredible amounts of poop her dogs produce. When I told her about how I do prey model raw and my dogs barely poop at all and the quality and quantity of the poop are a reflection of how well the dog is digesting the food, she looked at me like I had three heads.

And again, If it turns out it is better, I still will cook my dogs meat because thats what I choose to do.
Umm kay, that's your choice.


No, we are talking dogs. Shi Tzu's, Boxers, Poodles, Dachshund and so on. They were all breed over hundreds of years to get certain traits and to make them domestic.
Hundreds of years is not very long in evolutionary terms. While their outward appearances may have changed, they are still carnivores descended from wolves with the same digestive tract.


A wolves bite and a German Sheperds bite, although similar are very different. A wolf is made for hunting and killing and has much more powerful teeth and bite. While a domestic German Sheperd was breed over hundreds of years to herd, and then to be a pet or work dog.
And yet all dogs still have the ability to hunt and kill things. I've also met wolves who have been raised as pets, are you going to tell me their digestive tracts changed as soon as they became domesticated as well?


I would think a wolves digestive system can tolerate what it was meant to eat in the wild, which is whatever it can find. A domestic dog has evolved. Sure, I guess some dogs do well on a raw diet, But a domesticated dog will do just as well on a cooked diet.
How do you know a dog's digestive system has evolved past that of a wolf's? That's just your opinion. Dogs will also eat whatever they can find too. It's not just some dogs doing well on raw, it's thousands, probably millions. What do you think strays and feral dogs eat? I'm guessing it isn't kibble and I'm also guessing that if they do come across raw meat either by hunting it (because yes, they can still do that), or finding it, I can guarantee you they don't cook it first.

And as far as a domesticated dog doing just as well on a cooked diet, that is also debatable. Their teeth probably won't be as clean naturally, their stools will probably be larger which is a sign that their food is less digestible, and who knows what else is going on in their bodies that isn't going right until one day it collapses?


LOL, That would be very funny!
Yes. I imagine a pack of shih tzus bringing down an elk would be very funny to watch. Like being attacked by a swarm of wigs, I'm sure.



I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
I remember at one point you were seriously considering going raw, did your vet have something to do with changing your mind? As I recall, you have the most wonderful situation set up to do so, fresh meat to feed to your dogs at your fingertips daily. Might I also add, I'll take any of the "icky" parts you don't want to eat or feed to your dog :biggrin:


They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.
There is no doubt in my mind that these people all cared, they just don't know any better because their education made sure they didn't know any better. And ignorance can be just as dangerous as not caring. Like I said, I'll trust them if my dog sustains an injury or gets some sort of illness, but when it comes to nutrition, unless they're telling me something other than what I've read on all the dog food labels, I'm not going to trust them on it.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.
But fun! I hope you're having fun too. I was once a kibble/cooked food feeder through and through for all the same reasons. I'm not saying that means you have to come around to raw eventually, I'm just saying that I'm very adept at both sides of the argument and I can understand certain concerns (lack of freezer space and place to put a freezer I can't really refute, everything else is pretty easy). I'm hoping that I might be able to help people see that there are two sides to this argument and maybe help them decide if raw is right for them or not. I'm not trying to force anyone into anything. But if you say something I don't agree with, I will debate it happily :smile:
 
My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.
Bacteria isn't a problem to your dog. Parasites aren't a problem in human grade food. In 6 1/2 years of feeding 4 dogs and 2 cats, none of them ever had a problem with either.

I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
My opinion was developed from 9 years of study and research and attending seminars and college level classes.

Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.
A shi tsu (my spelling is no worse than yours LOL) IS a wolf. It has exactly the same digestive system and nutritional needs as all the other wolves. The only difference is size and physical appearance.

My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat.
You would be surprised at how much better he will do on raw meat, bones and organs. You are an omnivore and he is a carnivore. Your physiology and nutritional needs are different.

I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say.
Ask your vet how much nutritional education she has. As for the vets nutritionists at UC Davis, best I remember, they didn't recommend a homemade diet. As I remember it they implyed that commercial food was best but if you feel you must feed a homemade diet, you should consult them first like you don't have enough sense to feed your dog.

After years of study, I have never found a nutrient that a dog needs that is not in the meat, bones and organs of the prey animals. If there were, wolves/dogs would have gone extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago, or they would have developed some kind of mechanism to digest plant matter. Neither of those things have happened.

I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs.
Hehe, do you use your doctor because his beliefs in medicine are good. :smile:

And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday.
Two points here. 1. These nutritionists were taught the ciriculum designed by the dog food companies so they know exactly what the dog food industry wants them to know. 2. If they are doing a lot of research on dog nutrition they sure are keeping it quiet. Maybe you could point us to some of this research.

If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.
You should get the book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. It's all explained in great detail and evidence is presented. It is a well referenced book.

It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
Actually we just love chatting AND I think by now you realize just how much your vet knows. Your vet has never fed raw. :smile:
 
Alright, I know you guys are just having a blast going back and forth, but I wanted to step in and slow it down for a minute :)

My shepherd/lab mix is about 8 months old now and I have been reading this board pretty diligently for the last couple days. I came across this thread and was pretty curious as to just what Brian (the furkid) thought about raw meat himself. I bought a bag of chicken leg quarters and some chicken livers sitting in it's blood. I anxiously brought it home and loaded him up. I put a quarter of chicken and a little bit of liver on top of about a half cup of kibble and let him have it. He was very hesitant to eat it. He sniffed around, licked a couple times on it, and walked away. He just didn't seem interested in it.

Well, I sat down with him next to the bowl and tore off some more "ergonomic" pieces to make it easier to eat and he still wasn't interested. I put him outside with the food by himself hoping that it was just the distractions of the household that was making him iffy about the food, but all he did was play with it like he does his tug toy. He dragged it around the yard and threw it around. He didn't even try and eat it. Instead, after pulling all the meat out, he ate the little bit of kibble in the bottom of the bowl and laid down for a nap like he usually does after dinner.

I feed him Natural Balance topped with Solid Gold Seameal, sometimes I mix it with a can of NB L.I.D. wetfood and he devours it. Anyways, do I need to cheat somehow to get him interested in the food? Even the piece I tore off he just picked up, walked off and set it down in the other room.

Anyways, sorry to interrupt, but I was hoping you guys had a solution to offer :) The debate is teaching me a lot from both sides. Keep it up :wink:
 
It's not unusual for dogs to act like yours. I don't know why. Either they don't understand it's food or this is food just like stuff they have been fussed at in the past for even sniffing. Put a quarter down for him to eat at each meal. If he doesn't eat it in 10 minutes, take it up, put it in the fridge and feed it again next meal. It won' t take him long to figure out what it is.

One trick you might try is to quickly sear the quarter to bring out some flavor. By searing, I mean put it in a hot pan for about 3 seconds. Another trick is to "ribbon" some of the meat so he can get hold of it pretty easily.

Keep trying. He will eat it soon.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Once he realizes it's food, he'll probably go to town on the meat, but it's very common for dogs not to realize it's food. My dogs actually tried to avoid me at first when I offered it to them since they'd always been yelled at before for even looking at "people food" they probably thought it was a test of wills or something.

Anyway, searing it is a good idea, it will remind him of cooked meat he's maybe tried before, then he'll realize it's food and love it. You can also try cutting off a bite-sized chunk of meat first and offering it to him like a treat. That way he can also associate raw chicken with food.

Oh and PS you're awesome for being willing to try it out so quickly! Keep it up, I'm sure he'll figure it out soon!
 
I'm sorry for that experience you had, but you can't judge all vets based on a couple bad one's. My Vet is an exellent Vet and I trust her with my dogs life.
They are just like any doctor or mechanic. You have to find the right one.
There are good people out there who care.

We can go on and on. This is quite the controversial subject.
OK.... here's my 3 cents worth. I have to say I'm not as knowledgeable as alot of you all but I can attest to that "most" vets know absolutely nothing about nutrition. Recently, I got into a conversation w/a new vet I went to and I knew more than him and I'm just learning. I also gave him this website... hopefully, he's using it. (Also, my other vets didn't know anything either... which is very sad as so many people think their word is gospel!:frown:)
 
Ok my own question: Am I going to switch my pups to raw immediately or do I change her over to raw just like I would if I were changing kibble to kibble? I'm pretty sure my Mom asked this question when she was asking about raw but that was long ago and I don't feel like thumbing through the threads to try and find it LOL Thanks! (As for Vets, mine's pretty idiotic on nutrition too. He wanted me to switch to Dads or Purina...No thanks)
 
Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?
 
Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?
I suggest beginning with the items I list first for good reason. Chicken is easy to diges and the bones are relatively soft and plyable. Chicken backs are very heavy in bone. Bone is a constipator so this decreases the chances of diarrhea when switching. It will quickly give you very small firm little stools right off the bat. Turkey is similar to chicken so you go three weeks feeding easily digestable food with relatively soft bones so the dogs adjust to eating real food pretty easily and by the time they get to more difficult to digest food with more dense bones, they are ready for it.
 
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