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Why not?

28K views 187 replies 30 participants last post by  CorgiPaws 
Let me preface this post by saying I'm not knocking anyone. I'm just trying to answer some concerns.

I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate?
Very inferior. Some of the blends may be a little better than kibble. Some aren't as good a kibble. Mostly they are some small amount of meat with a LOT of veggies and fruits which are entirely inappropriate to feed to dogs. Hehe, one thing I noticed on thier website ... 4 of their products use hormone free chicken or turkey. What they fail to tell you is that ALL chicken and turkey are hormone free. You can go to any grocery store, randomly pick up a package of chicken or turkey parts or whole birds and it will be hormone free.

I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance.
Check out my web page in the sig in this post and you will see just how not complicated it is. :)

I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate.
Yet you are alive and I assume, somewhat healthy. Makes you wonder how important those numbers are, doesn't it? :smile:

hanksta13: "For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need.
I've been raw feeding for nearly 7 years now. I take no special precautions about bacteria except to wash my hands when I finish handling the meat. I assume you handle raw meat several times a week. Your dog's meat wouldn't be any different. My dogs love to kiss me, my wife, children and grandchildren. No one who has ever been in my house in the last 7 years has ever gotten sick from the dog's food or the dogs. They eat most meals off the floor and i don't used any sanitiation precautions. Germs are just not a problem with raw fed dogs. It's an non-issue and usually bothers only people who have never fed a real raw diet.

The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.

PeanutsMommy"for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness."
A good source to begin is a grocery store. I'm sure you have one pretty near you. :smile: My grocery store for the last 3 weeks has had chicken leg quarters on sale for $.59/lb. I have bought about 30 lbs each week. About 3 weeks ago they had Boston Butt Roast on sale for $1.59/lb. I bought 3 of those each week for a month. Just keep your eye out for sales, and you can get stuff pretty reasonable.

Try small independent grocery stores that sell meat. Talk to the owner or meat manager and explain to him that you would like to buy meat by the case. If he does't want to ask him where he buys his meat and go there. Also check ethnic markets and check for a raw feeding co-op in your area. I guarantee you that you can feed raw MUCH cheaper than the kibble you are now feeding. My meats average cost is around $.73/lb.

Y'all check out my web page in my sig if you haven't already and you will see what is involved and how simple it is.
 
I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome.
I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:

Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly.
You could be describing my nearly 9 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten a veggie or fruit in nearly 7 years. Her diet consists of nothing but meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me.
Hehe, we agree on that.

Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.
I found it full of a lot of errors, misinformation, and half truths. You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them. I know that you found statements on that page that you have problems with. The first two topics on their page say absolutely nothing more than dog food companies make dog food.

The first half of the 3rd topic says nothing until it makes this statement " ... it is really important that pet owners work with their veterinarians to make these decisions." The problem is that vets have to take only one nutrition course the whole time they are in vet school and it is a course about animal nutrition. Thats all animals, cows, horses, cats, pigs, goats, AND DOGS. Unfortunately, vets have no more nutritional training than the average person on the street. Your vet is the last person you want to consult with about feeding your dog. All he will do is look at some promotional material from one or more dog food companies.

“One of the biggest risks is using a recipe that hasn’t been formulated and balanced by a trained veterinary nutritionist,” Fascetti said. “We certainly can see problems of nutritional deficiencies both in dogs and cats eating diets that do not contain all the nutrients that they need.” That translates into "You are not smart enough to feed your dog. You must come to us and let us formulate a diet specifically for your dog." If you can feed yourself and your family without hiring a nutritionist, you can feed your dog.

“There is no evidence to support that feeding a raw diet compared to a home-prepared, cooked diet, has any additional benefits,” she said, noting that uncooked foods also carry a higher risk of contamination with harmful bacteria such as Salmonella or E. coli. “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” Of course there is no research on raw food for dogs because who would pay for it? Not the dog food companies. Dogs/wolves have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years and thrived. They have eaten both fresh kill and carrion. These people stress the dangers of bacteria (I have never seen a dog food company debate raw without bring that up) but they fail to mention how cooking destroys a lot of nutrients and makes digestion much more difficult. My dogs have eaten road kill squirrels that have been dead for days if not weeks several times with no adverse consequences. Germs are not a problem with feeding a dog a raw diet. The only people who say there is a problem with bacteria are the ones who have never fed a raw diet in their lives.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they make sense to you. Go read my page. :smile:
 
My dogs LOVE fresh carrots, broccoli, green beans, apples, etc.
Thats great. Feed him some if you wish. Don't expect him to derive any nutrients from them cause he won't. They will come out the back end looking pretty much like they did going in which means he didn't digest them.
 
Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:
Yeah, I just checked my email and answered yours.

They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article.
What they say is “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” ... They also say that you shouldn't feed a Homemade diet without having a vet nutritionist check it first like you aren't smart enough to feed your own dog. Hehe what baloney. :smile:

They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed?
Not a particular dog food company but dog foods in general. The overall message I get from the page is "don't feed your dog a homemade diet without consulting a nutritionist." Most people won't do that so the only other option is to feed commercial dog food.

They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet.
But they also say we aren't capable of doing that. We must depend on them or feed commercial food.

Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats.
Then why don't they research on which is the best diet, prey model raw, BARF, kibble, canned, cooked homemade? Because they know kibble and canned will come out on the bottom.

Why don't they research on how much more nutritious raw food is compared to cooked? Because they know raw is more nutritious and will make commercial dog food look bad.

Why don't they research and see what effect bacteria such as salmonella and e-coli actually have on dogs? Because they known it has no effect most of their argument against raw will go away.

Why don't they research on what effects a lack of carbs have on dogs? Because they know dogs have no need for carbs and that will make commercial food that is high in carbs more difficult to sell.

If they are really interested on what's best for dogs and cats, why don't they do some research that will actually benefit them? Because the dog food companies will look bad everytime.

When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.
Dog food industry is no different than other industries. Many industries contribute heavily to colleges and universities. The beneficiaries of these contributions know if they want the contributions to continue, they can't rock the boat. I'm not picking on UC Davis. ALL colleges and universities play the same game.
 
I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.
Any nutritionist, both human and animal, will tell you cooked food does not have the nutrition of raw food and that cooked food is more difficult to digest.

Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better.
As well if not better than what? Like they live now? Well now they don't have regular meals. They can and often do go days without eating. Even knowing that, I still think they would be better off with raw meat, bones, and organs.

A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.
The biggest killer of adult wild wolves is bullets. I think about 50% of wild wolves die before thier first birthday. That would bring average lifespan down A LOT. I could be wrong about the 50% but it's a lot.

Anyways can we even compare the two?
Not if all you are looking at is nutrition.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands, (I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse.
My Grandfather died at 91 and smoked until the day he died. Think the cigarettes are what caused him to have a long life?

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.
Me TOO!! :smile:
 
My dog eats cooked food and she is fine. We eat cooked food because it kills the bacteria, parasites and so on. It's SAFER. It also taste better.
Bacteria isn't a problem to your dog. Parasites aren't a problem in human grade food. In 6 1/2 years of feeding 4 dogs and 2 cats, none of them ever had a problem with either.

I believe your points are based on your own opinion. The title of this thread is "WHY NOT". I'm stateing my opinion why I don't feed raw.
My opinion was developed from 9 years of study and research and attending seminars and college level classes.

Wolves are the ancestors of the domestic dog. A Shit Tzu and a Wolf in my opinion wouldn't have the same Diet.
A shi tsu (my spelling is no worse than yours LOL) IS a wolf. It has exactly the same digestive system and nutritional needs as all the other wolves. The only difference is size and physical appearance.

My dog does great with cooked homemade food, the same food I would eat.
You would be surprised at how much better he will do on raw meat, bones and organs. You are an omnivore and he is a carnivore. Your physiology and nutritional needs are different.

I just go by what works for me and what my Vet, and the Vet nutritionists at UC Davis say.
Ask your vet how much nutritional education she has. As for the vets nutritionists at UC Davis, best I remember, they didn't recommend a homemade diet. As I remember it they implyed that commercial food was best but if you feel you must feed a homemade diet, you should consult them first like you don't have enough sense to feed your dog.

After years of study, I have never found a nutrient that a dog needs that is not in the meat, bones and organs of the prey animals. If there were, wolves/dogs would have gone extinct hundreds of thousands of years ago, or they would have developed some kind of mechanism to digest plant matter. Neither of those things have happened.

I'm not telling you not to feed your dog Raw, obviously you have your beliefs.
Hehe, do you use your doctor because his beliefs in medicine are good. :smile:

And yes, some Vets are unethical, sell Science Diet and don't know squat about dog nutrition, but UC Davis are full on nutritionists, professors and students that research dog nutrition everyday.
Two points here. 1. These nutritionists were taught the ciriculum designed by the dog food companies so they know exactly what the dog food industry wants them to know. 2. If they are doing a lot of research on dog nutrition they sure are keeping it quiet. Maybe you could point us to some of this research.

If you believe it's a conspiracy theory and they don't care for the well being of our pets, just greed, well, then thats your belief. I have a greater opinion of them. Call me crazy.
You should get the book Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health by Dr. Tom Lonsdale. It's all explained in great detail and evidence is presented. It is a well referenced book.

It seems like you guys are trying to change my mind. I have looked into it, discussed it with my vet and raw is just not for me, or my dog. :frown:
Actually we just love chatting AND I think by now you realize just how much your vet knows. Your vet has never fed raw. :smile:
 
It's not unusual for dogs to act like yours. I don't know why. Either they don't understand it's food or this is food just like stuff they have been fussed at in the past for even sniffing. Put a quarter down for him to eat at each meal. If he doesn't eat it in 10 minutes, take it up, put it in the fridge and feed it again next meal. It won' t take him long to figure out what it is.

One trick you might try is to quickly sear the quarter to bring out some flavor. By searing, I mean put it in a hot pan for about 3 seconds. Another trick is to "ribbon" some of the meat so he can get hold of it pretty easily.

Keep trying. He will eat it soon.
 
Holy cow, dream come true, that easy!?? That's amazing! Now, as for the list of what and when I should feed for certain raw meats, is that how I have to start? Chicken backs first, quarters next, etc?
I suggest beginning with the items I list first for good reason. Chicken is easy to diges and the bones are relatively soft and plyable. Chicken backs are very heavy in bone. Bone is a constipator so this decreases the chances of diarrhea when switching. It will quickly give you very small firm little stools right off the bat. Turkey is similar to chicken so you go three weeks feeding easily digestable food with relatively soft bones so the dogs adjust to eating real food pretty easily and by the time they get to more difficult to digest food with more dense bones, they are ready for it.
 
Thats amazing! Now all I need is a mini freezer and I can start! Maybe i'll buy weekly for the time being just to get her started all that much quicker. As for Duckie, can he eat all that righ tnow? He's only 3 months old. Is there a different sort of raw diet he should be on?
You'll probably need more than a mini freezer. Also backs will be difficult to find. You might start your search for them now. You will almost certainly have to by back by the 40lb case unless you can find an ethnic market nearby. You may not be able to find backs at all. In that case, start with quarters and feed them for 2 weeks before adding in the turkey. You will probably have to get a store to special order the backs for you. Explain to them you want a whole case and they will be more willing to add them to their normal order for you.

Yes Duckie can eat raw food right now. I don't remember what breed he is but if he's pretty small, it might be best to start him on chicken wings instead of backs. I started my Thor the day I brought him home when he was 12 weeks old but he was 26lbs and started off with backs with no problem. He was eating quarters when he was 13 weeks old. You will just have to size the animal parts to match the dog. With some good kitchen shears you may be able to cut backs in half.
 
Dr.Tom Lonsdale from Austraila? Oh, but he's a Veterinarian. He must have his head up his A#@."Vets don't know crap about nutrition". Foster Farms and Tyson chicken must be funding his book
Hehe, yes he is one of the few vets that actually have a clue about canine nutrition. I have met and know 3 other vets that know something about how to properly feed dogs.

You see, it's all a matter of OPINION. I can say the same thing you guys say about UC Davis and veterinarians.
There is a difference in opinions that are conceived with knowledge and opinions that accept something on faith just because the information is given by someone with a good reputation.

Again, if feeding raw is better for you and your dog, great.I like to cook my dogs food. Cheers.
There is not a dog that is better off eating cooked food than he would be eating raw food.

P.S. my Vet is a surgeon also, just like Dr. Larsdale.
Evidently he/she didn't go on to learn more about nutrition.

P.S.S I have no problem giving my dog a raw meaty bone to chew on every once in a while.
Cool, the more often you do it, the better off your dog is. :smile:
 
Hey, remember in all those movies we saw, when burgulars entered a home where there was a mean guard dog? What did the burgulars do to pacify the mean dog? Toss the dog a raw steak. All the time it was raw meat, never seen a burgular carry an opened bag of kibble to toss at the mean guard dogs.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ... good point!!!! :smile: :smile: :smile:
 
As soon as you put the bowl down keep stirring around his food as he approaches it, then pet him with your other hand telling him "good boy" while you keep stirring. Every now and then pick up a couple kibble and act like you eat it, then sneak it back in... Do this a couple times and then progress.. While he's eating just come over and stick your hand in the bowl where it's in the way. Tell him good boy and pet him again. Do this a couple times throughout the week and progress again.. During the next week, when he's about half way finished, pick his food bowl up and put it on the counter. He'll look at you like "what the heck!" Get a little bit of shredded cheese out of the fridge and sprinkle it on top and give it back to him, telling him good boy. This teaches him that if someone grabs his food from him, he'll usually get it back and it'll taste better than before, meaning it's a GOOD thing when someone picks up your food. This will train him to not be so defensive of his food :)
As a dog trainer of 15 years, I had many clients who got bit trying stuff like that. I have also seen many normal dogs get turned into vicious resource guarders with techniques like this. Often when trying to prevent something (in this case resource guarding) we create it or make it stronger instead. I can't tell you how many dog clients I've had that weren't resource guarders turned into one by owners going overboard trying to solve a prolbem that didn't exist.
 
How would I go about even keeping my kids away from something like that? All I can picture is the dog laying there, my nosey 2 year old trying to pick up that nasty raw meat from China's mouth and BAM, bitten kid.
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread. Has your dog given any indication that he will do anything like that?

Obviously it's common sense to watch your kids and your dogs but it's not always possible to know what every kid and dog is doing in the house at all times,
It IS always possible to know what is going on around the dogs while they are eating. It's only a few minutes twice a day.
 
That leads me to another question. If she gets 1lb a day for her ideal weight (50lbs), do I feed her 1/2 lb, twice a day? And with Duckie his ideal weight is about 15-20lbs, so would I feed him 1/4lb twice a day?
Assuming they are adults you can feed as often as you wish. Some feed once a day, some twice. I know some who feed everyother day and a few who feed 2 or 3 times a week.

I think you are just beginning feeding raw so I would feed twice a day for the first 2 or 3 months before you stretch it out, if you wish to stretch it out. When you stretch it out, do it gradually.
 
I was always taught that as long you pair any action with a consequence a dog appreciates or really likes, it always leads to positive effects.
Generally thats true unless you are making a nusiance out of yourself. Swap places with the dog for a minute. You are sitting down to a nice dinner and in the middle someone comes along and picks up your plate, holds it for a minute then puts it back down. Then they scratch your back a few minutes. Then they take your fork away for a few minutes. THen they scratch your back for a few minutes. Then they pick up your meat and leave the veggies. Then they put the meat back and scoop up your veggies. See what I mean. You will get tired of that pretty quickly and if its done 3 or 4 times a week, you really get tired of it quickly.

If the dog is showing no signs of being a prolbem, just leave him alone and let him enjoy his meal. If he is causing a problem, there are other ways to handle it.
 
This is from someone (myself, wife probably knows it better) who is I guess somewhat ignorant of this natural/raw diet-it's really just feeding natural or raw uncooked ingredients like good meats/veggies right?:smile:
Meat, bones, and organs. Dogs are carnivores and have no dietary need for fruits or veggies. You should research it some. Once you learn how to buy the food, its cheaper to feed a raw diet than the average kibble.
 
Of course we do our best to stop em but a mouthful of dirt doesn't really hurt em but I would be worried about scraps of raw meat.
I'm not going to tell you that raw meat won't make them sick because I donl't know. I do know some people on another list that eat all their food raw. They also eat raw meat regularly as well as raw veggies and fruits. One particular lady who I think is in her 40's or 50's said she has eaten raw hamburger meat since she was 6 years old. Her grandmother fed her raw hamburger. She has eaten raw meats all her life. Others on the list have also and they all claim its much healthier and more nutritious than cooked meats.

I eat my meats rare including hamburger meat I cook myself. I can't get restaurants to cook my hamburger meat rare. :smile: I also eat my eggs, not raw, but very runny. I cook my scrambled eggs just barely enough to be able to eat it with a fork.
 
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