[rannmiller]

I'm just curious (and certainly not trying to attack anyone), why don't some people feed raw?

I see a lot of people say, "I'm just not ready to do it." or "I just don't want to." So I'm just wondering what some of those reasons are. Why are some people not ready to and not sure they ever will be (come on this is feeding your dog, not having a baby). Some people say they just don't want to, but it's not like someone's asking you to kill your mom or do drugs.

Sorry if this thread offends anyone, but I get these ambiguous answers a lot when I'm trying to convince people to stop feeding their dogs crappy kibble food too, yet I know all you kibble feeders would happily side with me on that argument. So when you're ripping your hair out wondering why your dog won't eat the kibble you put down, or gets horrendous bouts of diarrhea from it or other health issues, or has the world's worst food allergies and can only eat a certain brand at a certain time but only if it's purchased from a certain store, I guess the only question left is: why not try it?

Believe me, I'm not trying to bully anyone into converting to raw, I'm simply curious. And maybe your answers can help me answer the doubts of other people out there who are frustrated with kibble but refuse to go raw for reasons unknown. Or even people who are frustrated with Pedigree but refuse to upgrade because "well my dog's been on it his whole life and I just don't want to change, even if he does have cancer, dry skin, excessive shedding, raging ear infections, is morbidly obese, and can barely walk." (not that any of you are on that boat, but you'd be surprised how many idiots I find who are like that... or maybe you wouldn't be surprised)

 

[ChattyCathy]

No offense taken! For me, at this point, since I'm "kinda" looking into it, it's a matter of laziness. Kibble is just easier to scoop out and put down on the floor. And, it seems like a lot of work to figure out what to get when feeding raw.... this could be wrong but I'm real confused. I didn't think bones were good for dogs and yet it's ok for them to eat chicken necks (??) And, then, when I think about it there's the mess raw chicken makes and I'd be constantly cleaning. (And, they (I don't know who they are) always say clean your hands after handling chicken before handling any other food, bla, bla, bla. So, what does that do to my floor?) These are just a few of my concerns. Don't knock me cuz I want to feed kibble :smile: and when these bouts of diarrhea (or something) come about my first inclination is to change kibble until it stops. AND, I have a small home and wouldn't have the room to freeze whatever it is they will eat and then package it for them. Kibble is just a "neater" package at the moment. It's simple and fast. I like neat, simple and fast.

I applaud all of you who go raw. I'm sure it is the best way to go. Just not sure I want to mess w/it. CHANGE IS HARD and kibble is easy.

Oh, yeah, I almost forgot. I wouldn't know if they were getting the right percentages of what they need, i.e. vitamins, etc. to be healthy.

Just my opinion for me. :biggrin:

 

[PeanutsMommy]

for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness.

 

[whiteleo]

I think people are strictly looking for convenience, I knew that I would have to go raw with my BT's, it was a matter of getting all the stuff I needed first. I bought them their own freezer, 40lbs of chicken backs(they won't eat them so i have 20 ibs left) stocking up on other stuff,like heart, liver venison, pork roast etc, I just like to be prepared. But, when I suggest to my friends and family that they should go raw for different health reasons, they think I'm crazy no matter what I say to back it up. I love my dogs and would do anything for them, especially if it means prolonging their life.

 

[rockymtsweetie82]

I have no qualms with feeding raw. My dogs constantly get raw snacks from when I'm cooking or leftovers. At this point, the raw is too expensive (I still haven't found one of thos butcher shops that let you buy bulk directly from them). Once I do, I fully intend on switching and am apart of this site purely for that information once I finally have the resources to do so. Kibble at this point is just cheaper.

 

[hanksta13]

For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need. I just add my own cooked meat. It's working out really good and my dog loves it. Also I feel when dogs kill prey in the wild it's warm and fresh and doesn't go from a slaughter house to a supermarket and then sit on the shelf for a week exposed to all sorts of stuff. I feel there is a reason why we(humans) cook our foods. I know Wolves can be scavengers and eat some old discusting carcass but our dogs are domesticated so I don't think you can really compare the two. Thats just my opinion. I guess raw works out well for a lot of people doing it.

 

[Doc]

I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate? I've done everything from Pedigree to Orijen to Honest Kitchen to breed specific home cooked diets. (and my Pedigree fed German shepherd dog lived to be over 13 years old and was healthy her entire life). I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance. I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate. lol

 

[RawFedDogs]

Let me preface this post by saying I'm not knocking anyone. I'm just trying to answer some concerns.

I like the Honest Kitchen product. Do those that feed "raw diets" consider this a good product or is it inferior to what die-hard raw suppoters advocate?

Very inferior. Some of the blends may be a little better than kibble. Some aren't as good a kibble. Mostly they are some small amount of meat with a LOT of veggies and fruits which are entirely inappropriate to feed to dogs. Hehe, one thing I noticed on thier website ... 4 of their products use hormone free chicken or turkey. What they fail to tell you is that ALL chicken and turkey are hormone free. You can go to any grocery store, randomly pick up a package of chicken or turkey parts or whole birds and it will be hormone free.

I am willing to try a "raw diet" but some promoters have made it so complicated I would need a check list to make sure everything was in balance.

Check out my web page in the sig in this post and you will see just how not complicated it is.

I have a hard time puttng the "right" stuff on my plate.

Yet you are alive and I assume, somewhat healthy. Makes you wonder how important those numbers are, doesn't it? :smile:

hanksta13: "For me it's mostly sanitary reasons. I have been thinking about it but I have kids that my dog likes to kiss. I have been using The Honest Kitchen "Prefrence" which is a dehydrated mix that has all the vitamins and minerals they need.

I've been raw feeding for nearly 7 years now. I take no special precautions about bacteria except to wash my hands when I finish handling the meat. I assume you handle raw meat several times a week. Your dog's meat wouldn't be any different. My dogs love to kiss me, my wife, children and grandchildren. No one who has ever been in my house in the last 7 years has ever gotten sick from the dog's food or the dogs. They eat most meals off the floor and i don't used any sanitiation precautions. Germs are just not a problem with raw fed dogs. It's an non-issue and usually bothers only people who have never fed a real raw diet.

The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.

PeanutsMommy"for me I just started looking into it once i am comfortable and can find the sources to get the ingredients i would give my boy then sure i would go raw. the other thing is my husband said we cant afford it right now even though i feed evo and wilderness."

A good source to begin is a grocery store. I'm sure you have one pretty near you. :smile: My grocery store for the last 3 weeks has had chicken leg quarters on sale for $.59/lb. I have bought about 30 lbs each week. About 3 weeks ago they had Boston Butt Roast on sale for $1.59/lb. I bought 3 of those each week for a month. Just keep your eye out for sales, and you can get stuff pretty reasonable.

Try small independent grocery stores that sell meat. Talk to the owner or meat manager and explain to him that you would like to buy meat by the case. If he does't want to ask him where he buys his meat and go there. Also check ethnic markets and check for a raw feeding co-op in your area. I guarantee you that you can feed raw MUCH cheaper than the kibble you are now feeding. My meats average cost is around $.73/lb.

Y'all check out my web page in my sig if you haven't already and you will see what is involved and how simple it is.

 

[hanksta13]

My dog is doing great on Honest kitchen "Preference". I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome. Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly. Sometimes when I get in a pinch or a rush, I feed her a high grade kibble, which I am always researching, but I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me. Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.

UC Davis: Spotlight: Fueling Fido

 

[rockymtsweetie82]

The Honest Kitchen product you feed does not have one single solitary ingredient that your dog need. Dogs are carnivores and have no need for plant products. Mine have not eaten any plant material in almost 7 years. They eat ONLY meat, bones, and organs. Nothing else.

My dogs LOVE fresh carrots, broccoli, green beans, apples, etc.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I like the Preference because it gives me the flexability to add my homemade ingredients, without having to worry about proper nutrients, since Preference has all the proper vitamins and minerals in it. my pup is 6 1/2 months and is doing awesome.

I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:

Bright eyes, coat, energetic, looks great and growning perfectly.

You could be describing my nearly 9 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten a veggie or fruit in nearly 7 years. Her diet consists of nothing but meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.

I think the homemade diet is the way to go and works best for me.

Hehe, we agree on that.

Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.

I found it full of a lot of errors, misinformation, and half truths. You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them. I know that you found statements on that page that you have problems with. The first two topics on their page say absolutely nothing more than dog food companies make dog food.

The first half of the 3rd topic says nothing until it makes this statement " ... it is really important that pet owners work with their veterinarians to make these decisions." The problem is that vets have to take only one nutrition course the whole time they are in vet school and it is a course about animal nutrition. Thats all animals, cows, horses, cats, pigs, goats, AND DOGS. Unfortunately, vets have no more nutritional training than the average person on the street. Your vet is the last person you want to consult with about feeding your dog. All he will do is look at some promotional material from one or more dog food companies.

“One of the biggest risks is using a recipe that hasn’t been formulated and balanced by a trained veterinary nutritionist,” Fascetti said. “We certainly can see problems of nutritional deficiencies both in dogs and cats eating diets that do not contain all the nutrients that they need.” That translates into "You are not smart enough to feed your dog. You must come to us and let us formulate a diet specifically for your dog." If you can feed yourself and your family without hiring a nutritionist, you can feed your dog.

“There is no evidence to support that feeding a raw diet compared to a home-prepared, cooked diet, has any additional benefits,” she said, noting that uncooked foods also carry a higher risk of contamination with harmful bacteria such as Salmonella or E. coli. “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” Of course there is no research on raw food for dogs because who would pay for it? Not the dog food companies. Dogs/wolves have been eating raw meat, bones, and organs for millions of years and thrived. They have eaten both fresh kill and carrion. These people stress the dangers of bacteria (I have never seen a dog food company debate raw without bring that up) but they fail to mention how cooking destroys a lot of nutrients and makes digestion much more difficult. My dogs have eaten road kill squirrels that have been dead for days if not weeks several times with no adverse consequences. Germs are not a problem with feeding a dog a raw diet. The only people who say there is a problem with bacteria are the ones who have never fed a raw diet in their lives.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I hope they make sense to you. Go read my page. :smile:

 

[rockymtsweetie82]

What is so horrible about giving a dog something she/he likes? Fresh vegetables, fruits, etc. I'm not saying I'm going to turn my dog into a vegetarian but along with a healthy meat diet?? I see nothing wrong with it. My dogs love it, my mom's dogs love it, and none of them have ever had any health issues because of it so what does make it such a horrible thing to feed your dog some fruits and veggies?

 

[RawFedDogs]

My dogs LOVE fresh carrots, broccoli, green beans, apples, etc.

Thats great. Feed him some if you wish. Don't expect him to derive any nutrients from them cause he won't. They will come out the back end looking pretty much like they did going in which means he didn't digest them.

 

[whiteleo]

Theres nothing wrong with giving them some fruit and veggies for snacks or treats, they just aren't going to get anything nutritional from it. My BT's love to have a piece of apple when I have one, or some carrots.

 

[rockymtsweetie82]

That was my point. There's nothing wrong with it. Like I said, My dogs aren't going vegan but I do give it to them because they love it. As for nutritional value, I believe we all have our own opinions and nutritional facts to review.

 

[hanksta13]

I hope the homemade ingredients you add are all meat. I can see you didn't read my web page like I asked you to. :smile:


Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:

You see, vet schools like this depend heavily on money from the dog food manufacturers and never miss a chance to promote them. Its a sad story but rare is the canine nutritionist who will recommend any food other than that of the dog food companies that support them

.

They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article. They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed? They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet. Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats. When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.

 

[rannmiller]

Here is a link I found while I was doing a bit of research from UC DAVIS veterinary nutritionists that I found interesting. Enjoy.

UC Davis: Spotlight: Fueling Fido

No offense but that article didn't really have any helpful information in it whatsoever. If people didn't already know about not storing dog food in non-airtight containers in blazing hot temperatures, then that's just sad. The rest of it was either pointless, and mostly incorrect.

I think it is just fine to question vet schools since they actually are funded by major dog food companies, and so are their veterinary nutritionist programs. It is, unfortunately, not just a conspiracy theory. Vets really only do get one class on nutrition for all animals that they don't really have to pay much attention to. And usually these classes are taught by representatives from a pet food company. And the pet food companies will pay off freshly graduated veterinarian's debt and give them money to establish a practice promoting their products. Don't believe me? I asked two vets about it myself.

Still don't believe me? Check out the Science Diet website, they tell all about it. Hill's Pet Nutrition Students

Bottom line: vets get sub-par education on nutrition because they aren't really given the opportunity to learn otherwise.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Yeah, I add whatever meat I cook for the week, eggs, fish oil and sometimes yogurt. I have read your web page.:smile:

Yeah, I just checked my email and answered yours.

They are recommending a "Homemade cooked diet" in the article.

What they say is “So when we do recommend diets that are home-prepared we always recommend cooked products.” ... They also say that you shouldn't feed a Homemade diet without having a vet nutritionist check it first like you aren't smart enough to feed your own dog. Hehe what baloney. :smile:

They are not promoting any dog food CO. Did they mention any names I may have missed?

Not a particular dog food company but dog foods in general. The overall message I get from the page is "don't feed your dog a homemade diet without consulting a nutritionist." Most people won't do that so the only other option is to feed commercial dog food.

They are Just saying to be aware to feed a balanced diet.

But they also say we aren't capable of doing that. We must depend on them or feed commercial food.

Questioning the ethics of UC Davis is kinda harsh. :wink:
I think they are just researching what's best for dogs and cats.

Then why don't they research on which is the best diet, prey model raw, BARF, kibble, canned, cooked homemade? Because they know kibble and canned will come out on the bottom.

Why don't they research on how much more nutritious raw food is compared to cooked? Because they know raw is more nutritious and will make commercial dog food look bad.

Why don't they research and see what effect bacteria such as salmonella and e-coli actually have on dogs? Because they known it has no effect most of their argument against raw will go away.

Why don't they research on what effects a lack of carbs have on dogs? Because they know dogs have no need for carbs and that will make commercial food that is high in carbs more difficult to sell.

If they are really interested on what's best for dogs and cats, why don't they do some research that will actually benefit them? Because the dog food companies will look bad everytime.

When it comes to Conspiracy Theories, I'm am usually the first to agree and jump on that band wagon, but UC Davis, I don't think so.

Dog food industry is no different than other industries. Many industries contribute heavily to colleges and universities. The beneficiaries of these contributions know if they want the contributions to continue, they can't rock the boat. I'm not picking on UC Davis. ALL colleges and universities play the same game.

 

[hanksta13]

I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me. Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment. Anyways can we even compare the two? That would be like comparing me to a cave man, although sometimes my wife does! We will just have to agree to disagree.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
(I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.

 

[rannmiller]

I agree kibble is the most un-natural food to feed a dog, but I disagree that feeding raw is the best. I know dogs need meat, I don't think anyone here disagrees with that. I just think feeding dogs cooked meat is no worse than raw for me.

The difference is that cooked meat has all the enzymes and nutrition cooked out of it so their pancreas still has to secrete extra enzymes so they can digest it which weakens their immune system along with the rest of their body. I've gone over this before in other threads so I won't go into detail again here.

Also, when you feed a strictly home cooked meal, since you're cooking the bones, you can't feed them to dogs which destroys the calcium/phosphorus ratio so your dog isn't getting enough calcium, hence the reason why home cooked feeders usually have to supplement with either calcium or kibble in order to balance their meals and raw feeders do not.

Think of it this way, What if wolves or wild dogs ate 2 or 3 meals a day of modern premium dog food or cooked homemade food. They would probably do just as well if not better. A wolves life span is not any longer than a domestic dogs. 8-10 years, I looked it up. so on average a domestic dogs is a little longer, but I would assume that due to the enviornment.

Wolves probably only live that long because they are exposed to all sorts of environmental and human elements that drastically shorten their lifespan including: diseases, starvation, lack of medical care when injured, and of course aerial shootings.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

I suppose so, if you believe none of our points are valid.

I grew up with a Golden Retriever who ate Skippy, Gravy Train, Rubber bands,
(I had a paper route) wood, cans. He lived to be 16, healthy as a horse. would swim with us every summer. Go figure. Dogs are resilient animals and can adapt to most situations. I'm sure we all have stories like that. It's good now to see so many people care about what they feed. Ultimatly we all want whats best for our pets and I think it's what works best for us and them.

Some dogs are predisposed to live longer than others. I've also read somewhere that dogs have the ability to live into their 20s with proper diet and exercise. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that one. Of course that would vary depending on the breed, size, and health of the dog as well.

I just hate it when people get this mentality that their perfectly healthy dog is practically knocking on death's door when they're 10 years old and they've practically written them off as dead already, when it's really only middle age for dogs. That's like telling someone who's 50 that they might as well start picking out a coffin because they'll be dead any day now (depends on the person, and their diet and health habits too though, I suppose).

Anyways, I enjoy the site and the friendly debates.

As do I!