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Discussion Starter #1
I am curious to learn more about Prey Model Diets.

From what I've read so far you don't feed veggies or fruit in this type of diet.

I puree veggies and fruit and feed. It's not the bulk of their diet but I've always believed that it's important to them.

Their main source of food is RMB's, organs and muscle meat. They also get veggies, fruit, kelp, alfalfa, fish oil ACV and knuckle bones. If I feed a whole animal then I don't add these things and of course they don't get all these things all together I split everything up into a week or so.
 

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Fruits and veggies in their natural state are entirely undigestable to canines. This is enough to convince me that they don't belong in a dog's diet.

Anything that your dog needs can be obtained through a diet of mostly meat, some bone, and some organs of various animals. This is the most natural and optimum diet you can feed. Exact percentages are not important.

Most of the bone content in my dog's diet comes from whole fish or poultry because these are the easiest to digest and easiest to crunch up. Ribs are also wonderful for larger dogs. My GSD can eat ribs, my others just chew on them.

You'll want to stay away from knuckle bones or femurs of large animals because they are designed to carry hundreds, even thousands of pounds and are more dense than dog's teeth and can break them.
 

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I don't feed veggies either.

The reason a raw diet made sense to me was because it's basically how wild wolves eat. And the domestic dog is genetically the same as a wolf.

As CorgiPaws stated, wolves are not able to derive any nutrients from raw veggies in their whole form. It is evident in the design of their teeth, which are meant to tear and crush food down to sizes that will just fit down their throat. In order to get to the nutrients in fruits and veggies, you must first break down their cell wall. Humans do this with their flat-ish molars. Dogs don't have any molar-type teeth. And you sure don't see wolves out there with food processors! :biggrin:

The argument that says, "Well, a wolf gets veggies from the pureed stomach contents of the herbavores it kills" does not hold much water for me. Most of the time, the stomach of prey is not eaten by wolves. Here's a little bit of proof: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/pictures/2200-raw-feeding-its-finest-caution-graphic-photos.html

I don't think that fruit and veg matter is a necessary component of a dog's diet. But, if after you've looked into it and decide that you still want to go to allllll that trouble, it isn't harmful in the least. :wink:

Happy researching!
Richelle
 

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We don't do fruits and veggies just because they don't have anything that dogs need that they don't get from eating meat, organ and bone. But it won't do any harm to feed them.
 

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I puree veggies and fruit and feed. It's not the bulk of their diet but I've always believed that it's important to them.
If you have to puree veggies and fruits for the dogs to get nutrients from them, that automatically tells you they aren't needed in their diet. There is no way to get pureed veggies in the wild. Dogs also wouldn't have the ability to get carrots, potatoes, broccoli, or green beans. They would have access to grass, weeds, leaves and twigs. BTW: IF they ate the stomach contents of their prey, which they don't, that is the plant matter in the stomachs of those prey animals. Grass, weeds, leaves and twigs.

Their main source of food is RMB's, organs and muscle meat.
I can tell you are a follower of Ian Billinghurst and the BARF method of feeding because in your discussion of diet, you seperate RMB's and muscle meat. We don't seperate the two in our discussions. Like many, I started off with the BARF method of feeding but after extensive research, drifted away from it to the prey model method.

They also get veggies, fruit, kelp, alfalfa, fish oil ACV and knuckle bones. If I feed a whole animal then I don't add these things and of course they don't get all these things all together I split everything up into a week or so.
ACV is another one of those things that have been given mystical powers in the minds of many. Kinda like green tripe. It is not what its been built up to be. I often ask people what nutrients they think their dogs are getting from veggies, fruits, etc that they don't get from meat, bones, and organs. I have yet to get a good answer to that question.
 

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My dog Kira would pick wild black raspberries, blackberries, and blueberries with me. She really enjoyed the berries especially blueberries. She would often go off on her own to eat them off the bushes. It may not have been a significant nutritional part of her diet and it was very seasonal but there was nothing wrong with it and I think it was good for her even if she just enjoyed the taste. I never saw her attempt to eat a non-edible or poisonous fruit.
She also grazed a little on tender grass nearly every day during the growing season.
I did not feed her raw because I didn't know about it but I had switched her to grain free.
The second picture was taken a few weeks before she passed away.



 

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She's VERY pretty! I assume she's a hybrid...?

To use one of RFD's arguments, I like to eat ice cream. But that doesn't, mean I get anything nutritionally from ice cream that I don't get in my regular diet. :biggrin:
 

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Thank you. She was a mixed breed.
I don't know why she liked grass so much, maybe it was just like the berries and she liked the taste. I think the comparison with ice cream is not that great as ice cream is not really that healthy for anyone - human, canine, etc. Grass and berries while maybe not nutritionally significant are not full of processed sugar. I did not force feed her these things, I did not disguise them in a meat broth, she chose to eat them while we were out in the woods. Would she have still eaten grass if I fed her raw? what if , what if. Maybe it served some purpose maybe it did not.
 

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Mike, I'm pretty sure the comparison was meant to relate taste and not nutritional value. Dogs like fruit and berries because they like the taste and we like ice cream beacuse of the taste. Neither of which holds much nutritional value to dogs or humans, respectively.
 

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My dogs use to regularly eat grass until I started feeding tripe/trach, they still will occassionally eat the new blades that come up. RFD and I regulary have this argument about the need to eat grass and enzymes but we won't go there now.:rolleyes:
I just do prey model diet and add tripe to it and it works for me as it works for the other 1000's of raw feeders out there.:biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I can tell you are a follower of Ian Billinghurst and the BARF method of feeding because in your discussion of diet, you seperate RMB's and muscle meat. We don't seperate the two in our discussions. Like many, I started off with the BARF method of feeding but after extensive research, drifted away from it to the prey model method.

ACV is another one of those things that have been given mystical powers in the minds of many. Kinda like green tripe. It is not what its been built up to be. I often ask people what nutrients they think their dogs are getting from veggies, fruits, etc that they don't get from meat, bones, and organs. I have yet to get a good answer to that question.
Why don't you separate the two in discussion? They're two different things. I haven't fed my dogs and cats many whole animals, which I'd like to do more often. When I buy them their food for the next couple weeks I buy rmb's (wings, backs, necks ect...) And I buy their muscle meat, lamb, beef, chicken, buffalo, rabbit ect....I feed more rmb's than muscle meat. Just curious to learn all I can.

I think that my dogs and cats are getting an array of vitamins and antioxidants in their veggies and fruit. I don't feed them much especially the cats!
Thanks for the quick replies! :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #12
You'll want to stay away from knuckle bones or femurs of large animals because they are designed to carry hundreds, even thousands of pounds and are more dense than dog's teeth and can break them.
Thanks for the reply! I've stayed away from femurs! I know they are mega teeth breakers but the knuckles always seem so soft and spongy. I mean for bone that is.:tongue:
 

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Discussion Starter #13
My dog Kira would pick wild black raspberries, blackberries, and blueberries with me. She really enjoyed the berries especially blueberries. She would often go off on her own to eat them off the bushes. It may not have been a significant nutritional part of her diet and it was very seasonal but there was nothing wrong with it and I think it was good for her even if she just enjoyed the taste. I never saw her attempt to eat a non-edible or poisonous fruit.
She also grazed a little on tender grass nearly every day during the growing season.
I did not feed her raw because I didn't know about it but I had switched her to grain free.
The second picture was taken a few weeks before she passed away.



What a beautiful girl!!
 

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Why don't you separate the two in discussion?
We don't seperate RMB's and muscle meat in discussions because it gives you no information. Some RMB's have lots of meat and little bone, others have lots of bone and little meat. So if you say you feed RMB's and muscle meat, how much meat and how much bone are they actually getting? There is no way to know. Yes, we sometimes feed boneless meals. I do 2 or 3 times a week. But the important thing to concern yourself with is how much meat, how much bone, and how much organ meat? Saying, "I feed 30% RMB's and 30% muscle meat" doesn't give any information at all. If you say, "I feed about 20% Bone, 70% meat, and 10% organs" then you have an accurate picture of the diet.

They're two different things. I haven't fed my dogs and cats many whole animals, which I'd like to do more often. When I buy them their food for the next couple weeks I buy rmb's (wings, backs, necks ect...) And I buy their muscle meat, lamb, beef, chicken, buffalo, rabbit ect....I feed more rmb's than muscle meat. Just curious to learn all I can.
I'm a little confused by your terminology here. Are you saying that lamb, beef, chicken, buffalo, rabbit, etc that you buy are boneless? If not, they are also RMB's. Thats why I don't like the term RMB's AND muscle meat. To me, muscle meat has no bone. RMB's are either a bone surrounded by muscle meat or they are muscle meat that contains bone.

I think that my dogs and cats are getting an array of vitamins and antioxidants in their veggies and fruit. I don't feed them much especially the cats!
Thats a very general statement that says nothing and it's not what I asked. The question I asked was what nutrients do your dogs and cats get from fruits and veggies THAT THEY DON'T get from meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals they eat? It was really a retorical question because there are no needed nutrients in fruits and veggies that are not in meat, bones, and organs. You gain nothing by feeding carnivores plants. You only make llife more complicated for you and the animals.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
We don't seperate RMB's and muscle meat in discussions because it gives you no information. Some RMB's have lots of meat and little bone, others have lots of bone and little meat. So if you say you feed RMB's and muscle meat, how much meat and how much bone are they actually getting? There is no way to know. Yes, we sometimes feed boneless meals. I do 2 or 3 times a week. But the important thing to concern yourself with is how much meat, how much bone, and how much organ meat? Saying, "I feed 30% RMB's and 30% muscle meat" doesn't give any information at all. If you say, "I feed about 20% Bone, 70% meat, and 10% organs" then you have an accurate picture of the diet.



I'm a little confused by your terminology here. Are you saying that lamb, beef, chicken, buffalo, rabbit, etc that you buy are boneless? If not, they are also RMB's. Thats why I don't like the term RMB's AND muscle meat. To me, muscle meat has no bone. RMB's are either a bone surrounded by muscle meat or they are muscle meat that contains bone.



Thats a very general statement that says nothing and it's not what I asked. The question I asked was what nutrients do your dogs and cats get from fruits and veggies THAT THEY DON'T get from meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals they eat? It was really a retorical question because there are no needed nutrients in fruits and veggies that are not in meat, bones, and organs. You gain nothing by feeding carnivores plants. You only make llife more complicated for you and the animals.
The second amount of meat I listed were just muscle meat ie no bone.
I do feed other proteins with bone like rabbit, and other small birds such as pheasant, duck... I was just saying I also buy meat without bone. I get what you're saying about the percentages.

Sorry, I didn't realize that it was a rhetorical question. Just here to learn. I am not interested just yet or at all in switching my dog's diets. I am interested to learn all I can though. I think this is an awesome site and I've already told my raw feeding friends about this place.
 

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Sorry, I didn't realize that it was a rhetorical question. Just here to learn. I am not interested just yet or at all in switching my dog's diets. I am interested to learn all I can though. I think this is an awesome site and I've already told my raw feeding friends about this place.
There is no reason for you to be sorry. The important thing is that you understand the importance of raw feeding and why we do it, which clearly you understand! We all feel that different things are better than others so we all do things a bit differently...especially when talking about raw feeding. Some people feed fruits and veggies and others do not. People have their reasons as to why they feed them and the people who don't have their reasons why they don't. What you have to do what you feel is best.
 

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Thank you. She was a mixed breed.
I don't know why she liked grass so much, maybe it was just like the berries and she liked the taste. I think the comparison with ice cream is not that great as ice cream is not really that healthy for anyone - human, canine, etc. Grass and berries while maybe not nutritionally significant are not full of processed sugar. I did not force feed her these things, I did not disguise them in a meat broth, she chose to eat them while we were out in the woods. Would she have still eaten grass if I fed her raw? what if , what if. Maybe it served some purpose maybe it did not.
Would a better comparison be Milkbones to blackberries? XP I mean, Milkbones have hardly any nutritional value to them, yet dogs love those. haha.

Also, the way I figure it, my dogs don't get veggies, and none of the raw feeders on here feed fruits or veggies from my understanding, and every single dog I've seen here that is on raw looks absolutely FANTASTIC! If there was some random nutritional supplement that they needed from fruits and veggies, why wouldn't they start appearing malnourished by now? XDD
 

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Sorry, I didn't realize that it was a rhetorical question. Just here to learn. I am not interested just yet or at all in switching my dog's diets. I am interested to learn all I can though. I think this is an awesome site and I've already told my raw feeding friends about this place.
Cool ... no problem. :smile: Thank you for mentioning us to your raw feeding friends. Hopefully they will enjoy themselves here also. One more point about fruits and veggies. I don't think they will harm a dog at all, I just don't think the dogs derive any benefit from eating them. If you want to feed them and it makes you more comfy, go ahead. :smile: Sometimes I come across stronger than I mean to. You will learn that as time goes on. :smile:
 

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Cool ... no problem. :smile: Thank you for mentioning us to your raw feeding friends. Hopefully they will enjoy themselves here also. One more point about fruits and veggies. I don't think they will harm a dog at all, I just don't think the dogs derive any benefit from eating them. If you want to feed them and it makes you more comfy, go ahead. :smile: Sometimes I come across stronger than I mean to. You will learn that as time goes on. :smile:
That's ok. Sometimes I take things more personally than I should! :biggrin: Thanks again for all your fast replies.
 
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