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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi everybody, this is my first post but it's been two weeks that I'm reading on different dog food website and forum to find the Holy Grail.

Here's my original email I sent via their website and the answer I got from their quality control staff:

MY EMAIL
Hi,

My dog background: I rencently begin to be really concern about my dog (Mitsou, a 6yrs old female golden retreiver) nutrition. We always feed her with what the breeder refers to us, the Eukanuba brand, without really asking ourselves if it was the best choice for her. We recently got her to the vet because she was suddenly showing pain when running and jumping. With some X-ray we found that she begin arthrosis. I know her food is the the only factor, but I use to think it could help a lot.

That said, I did a lot of research to find the perfect food that respect our budget. When I found your products I was so happy, it mets all my needs grain-free, not too high protein, different sources of meats, many flavor to make a rotation. But then I find a lot of informations about that preservative your fish distributor uses. I know the answers you gives to people who ask you about that, that your manufacture doesn't add it and the cooking process use to eliminate most of it.

My main question is: Why keep using it since this preservative MAY be unsafe for dog health?

Some of the other brand I looked at seems to have find other ways to add fish to their product without using this preservative. Yes they cost more, but I don't think the price difference is all about a fish source. When I'm looking at the Web I see tons of people switching from TOTW toward Orijen, Acana, EVO for this simple reason. I'm a bit confuse about this, I really want to trust your product and that's why I just brought an High Prairie 30lb bag. But when I see all those people worried about a single ingredient and all those email you received like this one without changing anything, it's call non-sense in my book.
THE ANSWER:
I understand your concerns and frustration.



We are now in the process of transitioning to the naturally preserved fish meal. The use of the naturally preserved fish meal is tentatively scheduled to happen around the middle of May. The natural preservative that we will be using is mixed tocopherols (a mixture of the different chemical structures of Vitamin E).



Our other protein meals are preserved with mixed tocopherols as well.
IMO with this change it makes TOTW one of the best dog food for the price.

Edit: Maybe this thread should have be in the "Dry and Canned Dog Food" section...
 

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i wonder if its the suppliers using this preservative? TOTW doesnt add ethoxyquin themselves,the suppliers do.
i wonder if canidae will switch also?i feed canidae grain free.
id say with this change..if its for real,and not just a loop hole of saying that diamond will not add ethox..which they dont...then the high praire and wetlands totw are solid choices. the pacific stream is trash though.

btw im sure my 6 year old would love yours =p
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Has anyone else heard about this? I'm surprised that they wouldn't try to get the word out there on this one......:confused:
Maybe they give themselves a transition time to test the new formula and assure the profitability of the new preservative. They could also want to avoid overstock problems with the old formula if a "toxic less" version is out.

@RC
As they always state I think that it's only their supplier that was using it and they are now changing, or something like that. It could be another reason why they wait before spreading the word, if something goes wrong with a new supplier (availability, etc.)

Here's a pic of the chick! She is actually flirting with a white labrador on my street, but I'm sure she's open minded, haha! :

 

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add her as your avitar!! go to control panel and change avitar. you might need to resize it though! shane would have fun with her for sure.
 

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I did a huge study on this and the problem is the US Coast Guard requires it's use if the meal is ""made at sea"". Manufactures can get a specil permit but it cost money....Here is what I found.

Canadian manufactures are not bound by that law and Champion foods(Orijen & Acana), Horizon/Horizon Legacy and Petcurean (Go,Now and Smmit) DO NOT USE IT nor do their supplies.

American manufactures Wellness and Artemis have the special permits.

Every other dog food manufacture in America that has fish meal in it most likely has been preserved by the big bad E by their suppliers. I emailed every decent dog food manufacture and I certainly got a lot of BS.

Nature's Variety says their fish meal is frozen by their suppliers.

Merrick, Breeders Choice, Timberwolf, Nature's Logic and Fromm all stated that they did not buy from suppliers that use it.These were the only companies who stated that their suppliers did not use it.

Naturapet, (Evo, Innova, California Natural, Health Wise and Karma) states it loud and clear on their web site, that they do not buy from suppliers who use it. But P & G bought this company so I know this company well change that, because it is a added cost to the manufacturing process.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So their manufacture would need those special permits to get their fish meal preserved by the Tocopherols since the US law only recognize E as a standard preservative.

US law about fish meal

What I would like to know is what could be the profit impact of the use of natural preservative? The factors are the preservative price, cost of the special permit, the shorter time before it goes rancid VERSUS less switch for competitors, gain of potential buyers with this raise in the product quality.
 

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This is the Email I got from them, as far as TOTW being the best, they are a long way from that.

Dear Jess,

Thank you for contacting us with this information. Here is the company reply regarding ethoxyquin:

Thank you for your inquiry. There is not any ethoxyquin added to the Taste of the Wild pet foods.

Fish meal is preserved with ethoxyquin on the ships prior to entering port. Ethoxyquin is most effective at preventing rancidity in the highly volatile fish meal. Rancidity in ingredients can lead to severe illness. Fish meal is used in pet food formulas as an excellent quality source of amino acids and omega-3 fatty acids. Omega-3’s are vital for a strong immune system, healthy skin and coat, controlling inflammation and even preventing certain types of cancer.

Most of the ethoxyquin is destroyed in the cooking process, requiring other preservatives to be used. Tests for ethoxyquin are run routinely on Taste of the Wild. The results are typically less than 5ppm. This is equivalent to 0.0005% or 5 ten-thousandth’s of a percent. This is a true trace level that many laboratories are unable to detect. The amount allowed, and considered to be safe, by the FDA is 75ppm.

There is a small supply of ethoxyquin free fish meal available in the United States. However, this is not adequate to meet the supply demands for all pet food manufacturers that use fish meal. Ethoxyquin is being used in scientific research as a cancer fighting antioxidant. When present in controlled or trace amounts, it has never been shown to cause harmful effects.

Sincerely,

--
Melissa Brookshire, DVM

Sorry but this is total B.S.....
 

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Don't get me wrong because I really like TOTW, now here is MY list

The A list
1. Orijen, Grain free.
2. Evo, Grain free.
3. Horizon Legacy, Grain free.
4. Acana, some grain free.
5. Innova
6. Wellness Core, Grain free.
7. Blue Wilderness, Grain free.
8. Taste of the Wild, wetlands & prairie only, Grain free.
9. Fromm, surf & turf is grain free
10. Merrick, Some grain free.

Good quality for a low price
1. TOTW
2. California Natural
3. Health Wise
4. Kirkland, Costco

The B list

1. California Natural
2. Instinct, Grain free.
3. Now, Grain free.
4. GO, free indurance,chicken,salmon only
5. Artemis
6. Evangers
7. Timberwolf
8. Wellness
9. Solid Gold
10. Canidae
11.Health Wise
12.Karma

I have a feeling Horizon Legacy could be history because Horizon does not have it listed on their site and DFA used to have it reviewed as ASix star food and it isn't listed anymore.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
I agree with you about the statements in the email you received, but their last response looks a little bit more hopeful.

But I understand your concerns since this industry looks messed up, probably because of the a lack of knowledge. Most of it is attributable to the consumers who doesn't ask himself if the same basics about nutrition could also be applicate on his pets. IMO Educated consumers would lead to a better establishment of standard in pet food industry than any government organization.

On the other hand you got the industry that see an almost law free playground where to make profit, where the main user is unable to express precisely what he feels. And then if the dog gets sick we bring it to the vet, he's gets a diagnostic, if applicable some pills and that's it. We don't really tend to make the correlation between is nutrition and his health, just because we blind trust the shiny label and the Science diet the vet tells us to buy. I'm the first to blame because I did the same for almost 6 years and then I saw my friend start having problems.

I know I'm a lil bit off topic here, but I'm really angry about this. I used to be aware and do a lot of research before buying anything for myself and to let that one go gives me a lot of frustration.
 

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Dude it took me a dog that I had to put down with a tumor before I really got serious about dog food. When I asked my vet if the dog food could have been a factor in my dog getting the tumor, HE JUST SHRUGGED HIS SHOULDERS. Before I got home I was blaming myself and I was bawling. I swore I would always feed my dogs good food from then on. I feed California Natural and Fromms duck in the AM and Orijen LBP and a small amount of TOTW wetlands in the PM. His PM feeding is a 3 full cups and his AM is 2 cups. Tony is pretty big and active. Did U notice that I do not mix the grainfree with those with grain? He also gets vitys. I also feed him some sort of meat every day and if not he gets 1 or 2 cooked eggs. Maybe some "cooked" chicken or some raw beef. I buy stew meat or chicken flanks from Costco(cutting into small pieces). I then break it down into small snack baggies then freeze them and give them to him as snacks 3 times daily. 12 dollars of stew meat makes about 20 baggies and a baggie lasts 2-3 days. Every 2nd or third day he gets his egg or eggs. He also loves baby carrets, but he does not get them to often or to many at a time. Check him out at his website.

http://3toestony.shutterfly.com/
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wow your dog is nice and HUGE, nice pictures by the way. Your feeding routine looks really organized and complete, is he a working dog or something?(it's a lot of food! haha)
 

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Thanks for passing this information about TOTW's use of ethoxyquin. That was one of main reasons I had stayed away from using this food. I may consider adding it to my dog's rotation, now.
 

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Thanks for passing this information about TOTW's use of ethoxyquin. That was one of main reasons I had stayed away from using this food. I may consider adding it to my dog's rotation, now.
i have yet to see any verification that they are not using suppliers that use ethoxyquin.

in one email they said:

Most of the ethoxyquin is destroyed in the cooking process, requiring other preservatives to be used. Tests for ethoxyquin are run routinely on Taste of the Wild. The results are typically less than 5ppm. This is equivalent to 0.0005% or 5 ten-thousandth’s of a percent. This is a true trace level that many laboratories are unable to detect. The amount allowed, and considered to be safe, by the FDA is 75ppm. There is a small supply of ethoxyquin free fish meal available in the United States. However, this is not adequate to meet the supply demands for all pet food manufacturers that use fish meal. Ethoxyquin is being used in scientific research as a cancer fighting antioxidant. When present in controlled or trace amounts, it has never been shown to cause harmful effects.

then in another email:

I understand your concerns and frustration.

We are now in the process of transitioning to the naturally preserved fish meal. The use of the naturally preserved fish meal is tentatively scheduled to happen around the middle of May. The natural preservative that we will be using is mixed tocopherols (a mixture of the different chemical structures of Vitamin E).


at some point they will need to issue something in writing stating that all of their suppliers are now using alternative preservatives.

i would guess as well that this would increase costs of certain products.
 

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i have yet to see any verification that they are not using suppliers that use ethoxyquin.
Very good point - we should keep pestering them until we receive confirmation that they no longer use ethoxyquin. I may send them an email to see where they are in the conversion process.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah, even if I'm in a grain-free transition for my dog with this food it's a wait and see for the future. If they ever reach this goal and assure his rentability I'm probably sure they will state it loud and clear as Champion or Natural did.
 

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Low levels of ethoxyquin is nothing compared to the poisons in farmed fish. Does your food contain farmed fish? Natura uses farmed fish and Orijen uses it when their regular fish supply is low.

Farm-raised salmon have been found to have much higher levels of PCBs, dioxin, and other toxic cancer-causing chemicals than wild salmon, according to a recent study. Salmon raised in farms in Northern Europe had the highest contaminant levels. This was followed by salmon raised in North America and Chile. The reason for the higher toxin levels is thought to be because of the feed used in fish farms. Farm-raised salmon also have more antibiotics administered by weight compared to any other kind of livestock. In addition, farm raised salmon do not have the same omega 3:6 profile as wild salmon. Farm-raised fish contain considerably higher levels of omega 6 fatty acids.

Eating more than one meal of farm-raised salmon per month (depending on where it is from) may increase one`s risk of developing cancer in the future due to the increased levels of chemicals and antibiotics
.
The Risks of Eating Farmed Salmon


Human Health Impacts of Salmon Farming Include:

PCBs & Contaminants
Excessive Antibiotic Use & Resistance
Healthy Fats From Healthy Oceans
Chemical Dependence

Farmed and Dangerous - Salmon Farming Problems
 

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Discussion Starter #19
It seems like fish is for the moment an ingredient to avoid. Even the most reputable brand of the industry like Natura and Champion get involve in story like fish bones and controversy fish preservatives and source (farmed vs wild). The best way of getting most of the beneficial effect of fish feeding without choosing fish as a primary source of meat is for me to supplement my pet with human-grade fish oil caps (some are even molecularly distilled).
 
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