[chowder]

My son just came over tonight with another new dog they rescued. Now I have two rescued 'granddogs!'. This one is a 1 pound chihuahua puppy that is 8 weeks old. I have zero experience with tiny toy dogs. I have always owned Lhasa Apso's, Chows. and other big dogs with the Lhasa's being the littlest ones.

This puppy was on Nutro (gag gag) and they were told it had instances of hypoglycemia a few times (probably from the Nutro or from refusing to eat it). It refused to eat the Nutro when they got it yesterday and would only eat some baby food they gave it. I put down some EVO small bites kibble I had and it gobbled it right up and looked around for more and then ran around wagging its tail. It also snatched up the dried lamb lung that I use for treats and sat in line with the other dogs for more of those treats.

So, my question is, can I feed a tiny toy dog EVO for puppy food or should I have them give it Innova puppy instead? I know that puppy food isn't mandatory and it seems to love the tiny size and taste of the EVO, I just have no experience with Chihuahuas. I actually have always hated the breed because it always tried to bite me or pee on me, but this little thing is really cute and sweet and I can't believe I am saying that! I even cut up a tube sock and made a little sweater for it! I'm a sucker for granddogs that are rescued.......plus they are all moving back home in April so they will all be living with me soon! And here I thought we were going to retire and live alone in peace and quiet...hahahahaha

 

[MandyPug]

Evo is fine for a small pup and the small bites are the perfect size for tiny pups.


Also see if they can get the little tubes of honey at the health food stores to keep on hand. That little shot of honey when the dog isn't eating will keep the blood sugar up until they can find something else to get into his belly. The tubes are great for travelling too, they look like clear drinking straws with honey inside sealed off on both ends. If they can't find them regular honey works fine it just isn't as portable.

 

[malluver1005]

WOW 1 pound! Wouldn't canned be better for him, since he's so small?

 

[chowder]

I actually offered some canned since they said it wasn't drinking much and it ate a little bit but it really liked the EVO better. I was suprised. I have to keep reminding myself that it really is a dog! You should have seen Rocky when he saw it. I think he thought it was some kind of malformed squirrel! I was a little bit worried he was going to step on it and squash it or something! Here you have this great big husky/chow and this tiny little 1 pound chihuahua. The other dog they adopted is a 65 pound boxer mix so they have quite an assortment of animals now. Once they move back in with us we'll have a chow, a boxer, a lhasa, and a chihuahua now. They REALLY have to stop adopting things!

 

[DaneMama]

If this dog has had a history of hypoglycemia, I would keep some Karo syrup on hand. Just a little dab on his tongue will do the trick. This is a serious, life threatening issue with toy dogs, so you have to be very careful that they are eating on a normal schedule.

EVO is just fine. If he isn't drinking a whole lot I would try giving him both canned and dry to add in moisture.

I would also start clipping/trimming/filing his nails now. Most Chihuahuas have an issue with too long of toe nails and it makes their joints in their legs bad. If you start now, he will get used to it being a normal thing for him. This will naturally keep his quicks shorter and nail shorter. And you don't want a simple nail trim to be a fight with these little guys.

Really want to socialize these guys to. Get them used to being handled by lots of different people, so its easy for its vet to handle and care for them. Since they are hard to restrain/hold during blood draws and such, its important that they are comfortable with being manhandled by other people.

This puppy is going to be VERY hard to potty train. I never recommend using the puppy training pads, but sometimes that is all these little guys will use to go to the bathroom. Sometimes you can litter box train them, or you can just classically potty train it, but my guess that it will be a hard battle! Since their bladders are so small they have to be taken out like every half hour or so to go to the bathroom. That means that you have to go out with them and praise, treat, praise if he does his business.

Good luck and post up any and all questions you might have :biggrin:

Pictures?!

 

[chowder]

My son is really getting a workout with this little beastie. His girlfriend adopted it but she works all day while he just graduated and is still unemployed. So he gets to be the 'daddy'. And you're right, it is totally unhousebroken so far, and it has been eating its poops. I told him to really keep an eye on that since they use a dog run at the apartment. Hopefully that will stop once they get it on the EVO and off the Nutro. They already took it to the vets first thing and they did a blood draw on it there. It was a little bit low in it's blood protein but that was the only thing wrong with it besides a previous bacterial infection that has cleared up. He has been taking it out every hour but it's really hard to know if it has gone to the bathroom or not! With a chow puppy, they pretty much are born housebroken and if they do on a rare occasion make a mistake, it's big enough so you know it! I set them up a feeding schedule so that hopefully they will get it's little body on a routine. And I gave them a wire crate so the little beastie can sleep somewhere at night besides in a cardboard box. I just never imagines in a million years that I'd be grandma to a Chihuahua! Just goes to show ya........Oh, it'a a little girl so now we have two girls and two boys in the household.

 

[DaneMama]

I wouldn't assume the eating of the poo will change with a food change....remember CorgiPaw's story on here about poor Grissom? He will still eat poo if he gets a chance. Your best bet is just cleaning it up right away so its not available for her to eat.

 

[Oz'sMommy]

if it is eating the evo puppy i say stick with what it likes, even if it is just for the time being. the reason i say that is small puppies can get hypoglycemia very easily. and it being a dry food is fine, just make sure you have a shallow water bowl for him to drink from...a cat bowl might even be good for him at that size.

you may also want to pick up a tube of puppy nutrical from petco or petsmart...pretty much any pet food store will have it. if you notice him not eating enough or taking a long time to eat just put some on the tip of your finger and let him lick it off. it has sugars and vitamins to keep his blood sugar levels where they should be.

my oz was 2 pounds at 8 weeks so i can only imagine how small a 1 pound puppy is! oh and i don't particularly like chihuahuas because they can be yappy at times BUT they are very smart dogs (a few friends have them). if there are other housetrained dogs in the house they often catch on by watching the adult dogs do their business.

i just read all the posts above. i guess everyone has different experiences with chihuahuas and training. personally i have a shih tzu...talk about hard to train...my dog used to look at me half the time like "i was bred for royalty, you want me to what?" lol

 

[JayJayisme]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Maybe I don't have a thorough understanding of how canine insulin production works but if it's ANYTHING like humans, the whole "give them some sugar when they crash" theory is really outdated and is dangerous advice. I know, I have hypoglycemia (LOW blood sugar for those not in the know), which was preceded by "carbohydrate intolerance", as does most of my family on one parent's side.

The introduction of any kind of sugar/carb in a hypoglycemic provokes an excessive insulin response that ultimately LOWERS the serum glucose level. Sugar may raise serum gluocose levels temporarily, but ultimately the blood sugar levels will crash. Sugar/carbs are what cause low blood sugar in the first place. Adding more sugar only provokes another blast of insulin, further lowering serum insulin levels. Hypoglycemia is a severe warning sign of impending diabetes. The constant stress on the pancreas from carbs/sugar makes it work so hard that it finally gives up later in life then, BAM, you have diabetes.

The trend in modern medicine has been to acknowledge and recognize that carbs are the enemy and that a diet high in protein, and for some humans, complex carbs from whole grains (low glycemic index carbs), is the key to metabolic stability. This kind of diet has changed my life and reversed the course towards diabetes that so many in my family before me have already endured.

If your dog is anything like me (with regards to its metabolism at least :biggrin: ), it needs small frequent meals of meat and no carbs. Ideally, prey model raw but in lieu of that (raw isn't for everyone, I know) a good quality, high protein, no-filler (grain or potato) kibble will provide this dog with a normal life. EVO is good. A little meat added would be great. Avoid food and treats with grains and potatoes...please!

I'm open to corrections/constructive criticism on this because, admittedly, I don't know the exact physiology of the canine metabolic system although I've learned throughout my life that most doctors don't know squat about human metabolic systems either. It took the medical establishment almost 40 years to figure out that I shouldn't be eating simple sugars and carbs, all while some of my elders were following the traditional advice of "have a candy" when they crashed. Those that survive today have diabetes, and I don't.

Understand that I believe dogs are carnivores, not omnivores, and I can't see how any sugars (which are all plant-based) can help any dog no matter its condition, especially with regards to blood sugar problems.

BTW, props to you Chowder, for helping with this rescue. No matter their size, dogs are dogs and they all deserve the best from their human caretakers.

 

[chowder]

I will have to read up more on your response. My son has been a Type I diabetic since a child and is on an insulin pump. So in his case, I know that if he 'crashes' from low blood sugar I have to darn well get some carbs or sugar into him or he goes into a coma. But, he takes insulin artificially and Type I is a whole different disease then Type 2 where your body can sill produce insulin and in fact builds up a resistance to it. I'm not sure what type little dogs have and I'll do some research on it so I can be better equipt to deal with this puppy.

I'm not too worried about it becoming spoiled and yappy. So far the big dogs just run right over it like it's not even there . I havent' had any trouble raising a little lhasa along wth big dogs. The big ones tend to keep the little ones in line. Although I spent last night looking up sweater patterns on the internet to knit for the little thing! You really can't dress up a chow very well so this will be fun!

 

[DaneMama]

Small dogs do crash, and they crash fast. I know this because I have seen a few die pretty quick in my experience (same thing goes for very young puppies). Maybe giving them sugar isn't the best thing in the world, but it does save their life in the presence of an emergency. Just keeping small dogs well fed on a regular schedule prevents this from being a problem in the first place.

Dog and human physiology are completely different but similar.

Jay-What do you do when your blood sugar crashes so low that you can no longer function?

 

[JayJayisme]

Jay-What do you do when your blood sugar crashes so low that you can no longer function?

Natalie,

I've never crashed this bad simply because I don't eat the kinds of foods that cause severe insulin spikes. High glycemic carbs are the problem so no simple sugar (any kind of refined sugar), no white flour, no white potatoes, no white rice, etc. If I eat something like a piece of cake, I will crash but fortunately we caught this before my condition advanced to the point where I cannot function at all when I crash. When I have a "crash", which is rare, I get really tired and I feel kind of like I've been drugged. But I've never passed out.

The key for me is to eat the kinds of foods that don't convert into glucose spikes. High glycemic carbs are digested and enter the bloodstream so fast that the pancreas has to respond with a shock of insulin and if you keep eating like this day in and day out, it turns into a roller coaster of glucose and insulin shocks that wreak havoc with your metabolic system until your pancreas finally just gives up.

For instance, when I eat bread (occasionally), instead of white bread I eat SUGAR FREE whole wheat bread. It takes the body longer to process good, whole grains so while they do provide carbohydrates/glucose, it is introduced into the bloodstream slowly so the pancreas can respond gently, if necessary at all, without producing a giant blast of insulin. If you can picture a linear graph of how blood sugar levels look in someone who eats high glycemic carbs, it looks like an earthquake seismograph during a big quake with the line jumping all over the place in peaks and valleys above and below zero. In a person who avoids high glycemic carbs, the graph looks like small gentle waves on a lake.

Now, try finding sugar free whole wheat anything in a supermarket though! Everybody gets duped into the whole grain thing but the food manufacturers just add sugar (sugar, cane syrup, corn syrup, honey, molasses, fructose, whatever they use) so you think you're doing good by eating whole grains but the glycemic thing is just as bad as white flour bread because of the added sugars. I buy my bread at a farmers market from a guy who doesn't add any kind of sweeteners to his dough. PITA but hey, I love bread and I can eat this stuff on occasion without wrecking my serum glucose levels. :biggrin:

Eating this way is sometimes counter-intuitive which makes it hard for some people. For instance, my family pretty much eats mostly meat and fresh vegetables. We generally don't have a starch in our meals (rice, corn, potatoes, bread, pasta, etc.). When we do add a starch, it's brown (whole grain) rice instead of white rice. Or sweet potatoes instead of white potatoes (sweet potatoes actually have a lower glycemic index than white potatoes...go figure!). Or whole wheat pasta instead of white pasta.

People see how we eat and think, "My gosh so much fat, your cholesterol must be off the charts!" But both my wife and I had really high cholesterol BEFORE we started eating this way, and she is otherwise fit as can be and thin as a rail. For me, no drugs (like statins) had any affect on my cholesterol level and they were minimally effective on her. But after we started eating like this (high protein and lots of veggies and few carbs), both of our cholesterol numbers plummeted with no drugs whatsoever. Mine went from 325 to about 200 and my HDL to LDL ratio improved significantly, enough to where my doctor doesn't care that the total level is "boarder line high" according to the guidelines. Neither of us have gained weight eating like this, we just keep the total calories at a level relative to our activity level.

Carbs can totally wreak havoc on the entire metabolic system, in both humans and dogs, it seems. I think the best way to manage a problem with this in dogs is to simply feed it more frequently and feed it meat or meat-based food. Once it adjusts to the feeding schedule and food, I'll wager that the crashes will disappear completely.

When I do have a crash though, I eat some cheese or I have a couple slices of lunch meat (I usually keep some no-sugar shaved roast beef or smoked turkey around). I don't just suck down some sugar because all that does is pick me up and slam me down again. In the long run, sugar just exacerbates the underlying problem in my opinion.

Jay

 

[DaneMama]

Jon is hypoglycemic just like you, do we eat the same way. He hadn't crashed to the point of not functioning since we've been together. Lots of lean protein and veggies. Only one starch source a day in the form of whole grain or brown rice, occasionally some red potatoes. One serving of fresh fruit a day....but not bananas, usually berries. Almonds for snacking.

It's always a pain getting together with friends for a trip because most of them don't eat healthy!!! And think we are crazy for the way we choose to eat. They always want us to take a break from the way we eat and "live a little" but they just don't get it LOL

I definitely see and feel the difference in health by eating this way. And to be honest you would probably feel even better if you cut out wheat and gluten altogether, I know I do when I actually cut them out...but I like my starch sources :biggrin:

My point in my first post her in regards to a small puppy crashing is that to save it's life you have to give them sugar because that is what their body needs to survive. Crashes with tiny dogs and puppies happens SO fast that it cannot be avoided to give the it sugar, most likely because they cannot function to eat something better. This is the exact reason why it is harder to switch tiny breed dogs to raw...because you cannot let them go too long without eating and usually in the transition to raw, they refuse to eat the raw foods at first. Which means you have to give them something else other than raw which defeats the purpose.

 

[JayJayisme]

Natalie,

Same here, going out with friends is a pain but on those days I usually don't worry too much about a strict diet. Like I said, I don't crash to the point of being completely out of it. I just get groggy and tired and that is usually accompanied by a headache. If I only go out once every few weeks, it's a small price to pay to hang with good friends and if I have a few glasses of wine (red, thank you), I barely notice how crappy I feel anyway. :biggrin:

I did cut out wheat and ALL carbs for awhile when I was on the strict version of the diet. For me it made no difference but that may be because I have other health problems that cause things like chronic fatigue so I just can't feel a difference when I remove all the carbs from my diet and since my "numbers" are good (for me), I prefer to have my bread now and then. BTW, my blood pressure was out of control for many years and no drug or combination of them could control it. I've been on almost every BP med you can think of. But after I was on this high protein, high fat diet for awhile, my BP went from 200/120 to 130/90. Go figure.

I hear you on the issue of giving sugar to a crashing dog. I've never seen a dog crash that bad but I guess if its that bad, you have to do something. But ultimately, it would be ideal to not let it get to this point at all. Even if the dog won't eat raw, small frequent meals of high protein kibble or high quality canned food would be a step in the right direction to the poor thing having a normal life.

One time I had a truck driver at a place I was working and while he was waiting for us to unload the truck, he crashed and nearly passed out while standing on the loading dock. He said he had some soda in his truck, a particular brand (maybe Shasta, can't recall) that had an unusually high level of sugar and that is what he drank when this happened. I convinced him to drink some orange juice instead and while it took a little longer for him to "get right", he didn't crash again later. The next time he came to our place he said orange juice in place of soda made all the difference in the world in leveling out his sugar swings and he quit drinking soda. If he would advance that concept further to eating whole oranges, including the pith, he would probably be even better yet. But at least he was on the right track.

The whole glycemic index thing is very misunderstood by doctors and nutritionists and there is really very little quality research data on the actual glycemic index of foods and their effect on our bodies. It's also really difficult to get meaningful blood sugar level numbers from a person because the levels can change radically from minute to minute. Plus, the issue gets clouded by these fad diets that promote low glycemic index foods for weight loss. I suppose a better functioning metabolic system can help with weight loss on its own but at the end of the day, total calories are what cause weight loss or gain regardless of what you eat. Nobody can deny that hypoglycemia and diabetes are at epidemic levels in this country though and I'm sure the rate of incidence corresponds with the rate of increase of processed foods in our diets. I've not seen any stats to back this up but I'm convinced there is a direct parallel.

For me, my endocrinologist suggested the "Sugar Busters" diet as a starting point many years ago and it has made more of a difference in my life than all the drugs and exercise put together. But because the understanding of the whole glycemic index things is still in its infancy, every person has to go through some trial and error to see what works for them. Everyone is different. I know people who eat nothing but crap all day long and they are thin as can be and all their numbers are "perfect". Broad brushing diet regimens simply doesn't work. But low glycemic index foods (i.e. non-engineered, whole foods) are a good start on the right path as you already know.

Frankly, my experience with my own personal diet, and going back to a more primitive human diet that is "species appropriate" for us omnivores, is what paved the way for my almost immediate acceptance of PMR for my dogs. The last time I had dogs, quite a few years ago when nobody knew any better and Alpo and Purina Dog Chow were the foods everyone fed their dogs, I also used to feed them raw meat and bones now and then but I never told a soul because that was so taboo back then. Last year for the first time in many years, we added dogs to our household and not having had dogs for many years, I set out to see what people were feeding them in this "day and age" when I stumbled on this site and the PMR concept. I was sold right away. The idea for PRM resonated with me after my own experience with eating a more natural, species-appropriate diet. I just had to convince my other half and make some adjustments to our household to do it so it took awhile. But neither our dogs nor us have ever looked back.

Jay

 

[chowder]

We had to go to a 6 hour nutrition lecture before we could put my son on an insulin pump and it was really an informative lecture. It was saying a lot of the same thing you are saying. I was trying to explain some of it to my relatives, one of whom is a Type 2 diabetic and they were very skeptical. The lecturer was saying that when you have any carbs, you have to bind them to a fat or protein in order for their absorbtion to be slowed. Example....if you have slices of apple, have some cheese or peanut butter with them or the carbs from the apple will make your blood sugar peak and then drop. Even if you have a slice of toast, put some peanut butter or cheese on it, don't just eat the plain toast. She was telling them that fats and proteins are not your enemy and you need them with any carbs you have. Now this lecture was strictly for a group of Type 1 diabetics. It was a very good lecture but unfortunately my son was 16 and I'm not sure he took anything at all from it. Luckily he is now engaged to a biology major and may start taking nutrition seriously.

If you guys have some websites you could point me to that talk about it in more detail and that may help him out, I would appreciate it. I know we have wandered off topic here but the subject has a personal note with me. I was also thinking it might not hurt for me to start following a similar style of eating since i have had hypogycemic instances in the past and maybe it might help my migraine situation to follow a better eating pattern.

By the way, the Chihuahua is eating great and LOVES the EVO! I went out today and got it some cans of EVO to supplement it and a little bitty bully stick. It's gonna be spoiled by it's gramma.

 

[DaneMama]

The main thing you have to think about is eating whole, unprocessed foods to the best of your ability. I can't really recommend a website or anything...because I have figured this stuff out for myself and through life experiences.

If it comes in a wrapper, stay away from it. The only things that we buy in a wrapper and are processed are brown rice, whole grain breads...we have found one that is excellent and only has 5 ingredients (although it does have honey LOL) and very rarely whole wheat pasta. Like I said above, we only have one "starch" source a day that includes those things as well as red potatoes. And the starch source is usually a minor part of the entire meal...like a piece of bread for a sandwich or a side of rice with protein and veggies.

Stay away from the middle aisles at the super market. That is usually where all of the pre packaged crap is. Stick to the outsides of the store and you should be good! That is just a guideline. There are things in the middle of the store we get, but those goods are usually something minimally processed...like EVOO or canned tomato products for sauces.

Find yourself eating every 1.5 to 2 hours. This does not mean junk. This means a healthy snack, like veggies, a cheese stick, a V8, some almonds, etc. I would not eat a bunch of fruit as a snack. We usually only have a fruit serving once, maybe twice a day. Berries are a big hit with me, because some of them are low on the glycemic index...like blackberries and blueberries mixed with plain low fat yogurt.

We have our "core" mix of veggies that we use in almost every single meal. Bell peppers, onions, tomato, mushrooms and spinach make up our morning "mix" that is scrambled with a mixture half and half of whole eggs and just whites, sometimes with a lowfat cheese or green chili or soy breakfast sausage (not pork or even turkey). We eat as soon as we wake up. I don't believe in skipping breakfast. Your metabolism has to wake up just as much as your mind. I will eat half of my egg scramble then and the other half about 2 hours later at work.

We use the same mix of core veggies for salads for lunch, but we also have cucumbers, avocado, carrots, real green leafy lettuce (not iceburg, aka "stupid lettuce"), snap peas, etc. Usually put a lowfat cheese and diced deli meat on it with a balsamic/EVOO dressing.

The same mix of veggies will make things like pesto (chicken or shrimp or crab), paella, dirty rice (which is 90% veggies LOL), chuncky pasta sauce but without pasta, soups (we love to make soup!), stir fry, etc, etc. We also don't use oils for sauteeing most of the time, we use broth instead...like chicken broth or veggie broth (with no salt added of course). This cuts way back on the amount of fat in our meals.

Only get lean protein sources and cut out fatty meats. Animal fats are not as good for us as other fats like olive oil or the fatty acids in fish. We try and have a different meat source every night with dinner.

We are not as strict when we go out either, but we definitely still do keep an open mind on what we are eating when we do. Its just when we go on weekend excursions with a group of friends and we have to plan community meals that it becomes hard. Because we don't want to sacrifice our healthy habits for total junk foods, which is usually what all the others want to bring LOL

 

[chowder]

That was really helpful. It will work well for us since I have a big garden and grow mostly various peppers, tomatoes, onions, and cucumbers. I've tried lettuce but we get hot here so fast that I haven't had much luck. My husband is big on things like collards, and mustard greens and can make whole meals of those. My other son can live without any carbs in his diet at all but then again, he is 6'3 and 150 pounds and we call him the walking Atkins diet. He is strictly a meat kid though, meat and rice. We rarely eat out (the whole retired/unemployed thing you know ) also we usually are disappointed with the quality of food when we eat out. So eating out isn't a problem. If we do, it is Mexican, our one favorite.

Okay, I'll look up what I can and give it a start. We hit the grocery store big time today because we have a MAJOR snowstorm coming this weekend. At least major for North Carolina. Up to ten inches in one day with snow and ice. I'm really excited! I just love the snow. Rocky will be thrilled. Looking forward to hunkering down with all the kids, dogs, and with a lot of movies and football. We'd better not lose power now.... Thanks for all the info.

 

[DaneMama]

We go grocery shopping once a week...at several different stores. Our favorite is Sunflower Market which is just a big "farmers market" but not your traditional one. They have GREAT deals on produce. And we do our other shopping at just your regular super market. We each eat probably close to one whole bell pepper a day! They are our "staple" food LOL

Good luck!

 

[RawFedDogs]

The main thing you have to think about is eating whole, unprocessed foods to the best of your ability.

I used to eat a natural diet until I learned most people die of natural causes. :smile: