Dog Food Chat banner
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I searched the forums and didn't see a thread that directly touched on my question—though I saw a few posts that were in that direction, I thought it would be a good idea to start a general discussion about questionable things we've talked about with our veterinarians.

---

We adopted our dog about six months ago. He was on kibble at the time, miserable and very skinny. We heard about raw feeding, tried it and he loved it—so we've stuck with it as a meal plan (and love this forum!). We've been feeding PMR for ~3 months now.

We had to go to the vet this morning. During our visit she asked what we feed our dog, and I responded with PMR. Her response was not negative, more so just a showing of concern. Here are some things she mentioned:

  • Feeding more than 30% protein to a dog is detrimental to their kidneys in the long-run.

  • 60% of chicken is contaminated with [unpronounceable bacteria name] so you should buy your raw meals from [local food store] or the brand called Primal. Unless of course, you are able to raise your own chickens, where the chance of getting said bacteria is greatly lowered.

  • Most raw diets are not balanced.

We buy our meats from a knowledgable, credible and local source, and we freeze our meats for three days before feeding—so I don't think that the bacteria she mentioned in point #2 is of concern.

My main issue is the "fact" she mentioned about feeding too much protein. Should we occasionally be feeding supplemental foods like grains and vegetables to bring the protein level down?

We do not want to buy marked up, and pre-packaged raw meals (especially not the ground up meat/bone type). I looked up the ingredients in Primal just to get a better idea of what we should be feed our dog. The first ingredients were meat, bone and organ meat, but then it goes on to include various vegetables and oils.

Considering we are raw feeding newbies, I'm looking forward to reading everyones responses…thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
164 Posts
Hi,
I'm new to raw too, eight months now. In the above question "is raw good for kidney and allergies" the question about protein content was addressed.

It was very helpful to me, hope it answers your question too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,443 Posts
Because of the moisture and bone content, the protein level is well below that of high quality, grain free kibbles. Let me do some research and come back with some proof for you. :smile:

According to the USDA database, a raw chicken leg with skin is 18% protein. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

Country pork ribs are 19% protein. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl

30% protein in boneless chicken breast.

16-17% protein in pork kidney and pork spleen

20% protein in lamb liver

17% protein in chicken liver

20% protein in boneless beef shoulder

ETA: I don't know why these links won't work....When I paste them the forum changes them so they no longer work..If you want to plug in meats yourself to analyze, go to this website: http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
Max ate 22-25% protein kibble until he was 8 years old. On 50% protein by weight raw he gained muscle and is stronger at nearly 11 years old than when he was 2 years old. He is using all that protein. He is a carnivore and needs it.

There is absolutely no proof that high protein damages a dog. They are carnivores and designed to eat meat.

This article is from Purina of all people. Especially note page 6.
http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/swineclass/PDF/Companion%20Animal%20Nutrition_2.pdf

I have never gotten sick and my dog has never gotten sick from this scary bacteria.

Feed the proper amount of meat, bone and organ and the diet is balanced. Balanced a whole lot better than kibbles are too. Kibbles are balanced to 30+ year old NRC numbers and things have changed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,214 Posts
Raw is generally between 20-25% protein, if I recall correctly from previous discussions. Kibble generally has higher protein than raw because of the vegetable proteins, such as peas or potatoes.

As for the bacteria, dogs have short stomachs, intestines, whatnot, and food doesn't sit in them like it does in a human, certainly not long enough to do any damage. On top of that, they have enzymes in their saliva that kills bacteria. I can imagine they also have those enzymes in their stomachs, because they were built to eat raw and rotting carcasses that have been sitting in the sun for days.

And a PMR diet is just as balanced as a diet in the wild. This is what our carnivores were eating LOOOOONG before we came in and domesticated them, and this is what they were eating for a loooooooooong time after we domesticated them. Remember, kibble was only developed, like, 100 years ago. Just ask Bill (RawFedDogs)! He's been feeding raw for, like, decades (over-exaggerating, but I know he's been feeding raw for a looooooong enough time to be able to tell you whether his dogs are dying from improperly balanced diets.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
All the responses so far have been very helpful. (I checked the other posting and it was very insightful, thanks Kofismom!)

…And a PMR diet is just as balanced as a diet in the wild. This is what our carnivores were eating LOOOOONG before we came in and domesticated them, and this is what they were eating for a loooooooooong time after we domesticated them. Remember, kibble was only developed, like, 100 years ago. Just ask Bill (RawFedDogs)! He's been feeding raw for, like, decades (over-exaggerating, but I know he's been feeding raw for a looooooong enough time to be able to tell you whether his dogs are dying from improperly balanced diets.)
Thanks for the kind reminder that I'm not crazy in thinking PMR is the best option. Hearing contradictory information from what I would think should be a credible source (aka the vet) is probably the hardest part of PMR than the actual feeding itself.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
659 Posts
Kibble has higher protein than raw because it is low moisture. Nothing to do with the vegetable and grain proteins it may have. Take out the water and raw is as high in protein as kibbles. Max's 300 grams of wet raw a day reduce to about 100 grams dry, about 50 protein and 50 fat. 33% protein by calories as fat has about twice the calories of protien or 50% protein by weight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
921 Posts
If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that the type of protein is also a major factor. That animal protein will be well-used, while too much plant protein can cause more harm than good.
Also, that the kidneys are actually affected by calcium levels more than anything else.
If I could remember where I saw it I will post up a link. (Unless someone wants to do it for me ;P )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,629 Posts
Because of the water weight in meat, it is a moderately low protein diet. Dry weight-wise, it's high.

However, it's what dogs are meant to eat and their bodies are designed to process animal tissue ONLY. I'd imagine that a horrible prescription diet, even one designed specifically for kidney failure, would do more harm than good.. after all if I'm not mistaken kidneys are meant to filter the blood of toxins.. and cheap dog food is FULL of toxins, carbs and processed food. Taxing the kidneys with an inappropriate diet is the very last thing you want to do.

Water is also very important.. and a raw fed dog generally consumes more water as their diet is moisture inclusive.

As for the balancing, all nutrients, vitamins and amino acids a dog cannot manufacture in its own body is found in a diet of meat, bone and organ. 'Balancing' a carnivore diet is much easier than your own omnivorous diet.. and yet no one seems to wonder why you are still alive and how the heck do you figure out what to eat in what proportion! :confused: If someone suggested people only eat one food day after day because it is correctly formulated with the correct amounts of all nutrients, they would be laughed out of the room!

Just remember, some bone, some organ and mostly meat.

Hope I helped!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kofismom

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
REALLY great info here!

Also remember that veterinarians only receive about 10 hours of education regarding canine nutrition, and that it's sponsored by the pet food companies that make the prescription dog food, like Hill's Science Diet, Royal Canin, Purina, etc. I trust my vet in every aspect when it comes to my dog's medical treatment, but I leave the nutrition part up to me! :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
995 Posts
What everyone else said :tongue: Raw is actually less protein due to water content (kibble is dy and therefore more concentrated), the type/source/quality of protein is what matters (meat protein>plant derived protein, I believe the kidney failure study was done on rats - but correct me if I am wrong), and what is 'balanced' exactly? We don't even know what 'balanced' means for humans let alone dogs. Do you swear by the food pyramid? Because last I checked it got revised :smile:

ETA: Forgot to mention we went to the vet last week...he is a raw feeder and he had nothing but good things to say about it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kofismom

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
ETA: Forgot to mention we went to the vet last week...he is a raw feeder and he had nothing but good things to say about it!
He is a holistic vet if I remember correctly, right? Most traditional vets don't know much about canine nutrition. My holistic vet recommends raw and home cooked diets, and has experience with both, one of my traditional vets carries Acana in his office, but the other vet we go to pushes the prescription diets.. and thinks foods like Pro Plan and Bil Jac are "great".
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top