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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Any group of people that is this argumentative and willing to fight and go at it so much...

I can't help but wonder about their food. You win, Tim's army. You finally broke me down. You all either know your stuff or put on one helluva show. I'll know soon as I'm ordering some from Petflow tonight.

There are 2 points that do raise my eyebrow on Tim...

1. I've addressed this before--his dropping the hammer on the Grainfree craze in the last couple years... then I see he comes out with a Grainfree line. I certainly don't care that he offers grainfree foods. It just smelled a bit hypocritical.

2. Glucosamine in his food. I've never ready anyone say that Glucosamine was anything but a giant scam as an ingredient and that any time you see it in food, it is nothing more than fancy marketing. I do wonder why Tim would stick this in his food?...unless there IS a reason for it. From what I've read, the entire Glucosomine thing, even for HUMANs is highly debatable and may actually do nothing to help any living creatures joints.
 

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As far as what I'm thinking is that most just use it for endurance sports because of the carbs. Corn = cheap carb. I think it's just a good show. I can find people who swear by Eukanuba. Doesn't mean anything.

Honestly I think they just changed it with the fads like you said about GF. I don't want a company that just goes with the flow and fads. I just don't like that about it. It's just marketing to me to try to get more customers.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
yeah, I know... its peculiar. The army of posters. The constant ridicule of Orijen and all the brands we love. And I know I came about it in a really, really bizarre way. But I gotta hand it to them. They broke me down. I can't take it any longer. Slow cooking, low ash, big meat content... you win guys. I'll try it. Fine.


But I still want them to address my 2 points above again...well, at least the Glucosamine one. I think Tim already sent me something on Grain Free.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
As far as what I'm thinking is that most just use it for endurance sports because of the carbs. Corn = cheap carb. I think it's just a good show. I can find people who swear by Eukanuba. Doesn't mean anything.

Honestly I think they just changed it with the fads like you said about GF. I don't want a company that just goes with the flow and fads. I just don't like that about it. It's just marketing to me to try to get more customers.

Sahara, in fairness, I don't think the Kinesis has any Corn in it.

God what has the world come to, I'm out here defending Tim ;)


Correction to the above... Horrock's in Grand Rapids is carrying it so I'll probably just grab some up there next time I'm there.
 

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Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently.

And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.
 
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Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently.

And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.

6.9% is still pretty low though?


Kevin, I've considered trying it for pips and giggles too lol.
 

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Lol, I tend to agree. I've been informed of a lot of things I wouldn't have believed in the past, and done some of my own research, and am kind of having the same feelings as you.

I've been feeding Fromm (he can only seemingly tolerate the beef formula, thus far) so hopefully he continues doing well with it. I love the low ash, the company, etc, etc.
 

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@Kevin; lol you caved :) Kidding aside, will you give us some feedback after a cpl of months?

@Sahara; Re carbs, dogs do not utilize quick carbohydrates in performance situations in the same way as humans do. For example a pro cyclist can gain access to some valuable energy from a coke and some gel eaten just before a final climb or a mass sprint. No trials, real life tests or studies I am aware of have shown any significantly gain in sporting performance when dogs where given carbohydrates during or immediately before competition or training. Nor does owners of performance dogs wish to load up their dogs with excessive amounts of carbohydrates. I don't know what you base your thinking of but I can assure you pumping a dog full of "cheap carbs" as you put it on a daily basis will lead to a terrible performer.
 

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Looking at the grain free maybe I've got it figured out. Grain inclusive has 26% protein and 5.8 ash. Grain free has 32% protein and 6.9 ash. The way I'm looking at it is you either get meat in their food or low ash. Together doesn't seem to be an option apparently.

And I have to admit the "true carnivore" diet had me laughing.
Sarah I will sum it up for you:

Kinesis, 26/16, 90% Protein from Animal Sources, 5.8% Ash.
Pursuit, 30/20, 94% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.5% Ash
Momentum, 35/25, 96% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.0% Ash
Kinesis GF, 32/18, 92% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.9% Ash


Sarah, have you been to the Dr. Tim's FB page? There is a guide name Joe Henderson that takes a team of Malamutes into the Arctic in the winter on 100 day camping trips that uses Momentum. Very interesting stuff.

You seem to discount the experience of all these professionals that use the food. Why is that?
 

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I am new to this forum, but not to dog nutrition. I am not at all impressed with Tim's foods and in no way does it compare to Orijen. I wouldn't even feed the grain free formula, its packed FULL of vegetable protein. My dogs a carnivore. Sorry.
How do you figure? 92% of the protein in the GF is from animal sources. Show me your calculation.

There is no "pea protein" or any other type of concentrate in it. It would be impossible for the protein to come from anything but meat. Whole "field peas" are way less than 10% protein. Brown rice is about 3% protein. The "pea protein" you find in other foods is 90% protein.

So it is impossble for the protein to come from elsewhere.

So explain to me in detail how the foods could be "packed Full" of vegetable protein. If Kinesis, Pursuit and Momentum were 100% brown rice, the most the protein could be overall is 3%. If the GF was 100% field peas, the most the protein could be is around 5%. So your argument does not make sense.

Sounds like you are new to dog nutrition. If you wanna say Acana, Earthborn, Nutrisource and Fromm GF's are then I would agree with you. These all have high levels of legume and legume products.
 

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I am new to this forum, but not to dog nutrition. I am not at all impressed with Tim's foods and in no way does it compare to Orijen. I wouldn't even feed the grain free formula, its packed FULL of vegetable protein. My dogs a carnivore. Sorry.
"Packed FULL of vegetable protein" What does that mean? Since you say you are not new to dog nutrition I think you should elaborate a bit more on that statement. Right now you sound uneducated. Why does it not compare to Orijen in your opinion and how is it packed full of vegetable protein?

Reading a label is too easy. There are many things a label does not say. One factor most overlook is that protein percentage is often given as per energy per weight unit. Meaning the energy provided by an ingredient to the finished product matters when evaluating foods and ingredients (how the manufacturer formulated the food) 20% of 80 calories is different than 20% of 380 calories when formulating a dog food. A label does not give you weight distribution nor does it give you energy amounts per ingredient per unit. So in that light "Packed FULL of vegetable protein" means very little.
 

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Kinesis, 26/16, 90% Protein from Animal Sources, 5.8% Ash.
Pursuit, 30/20, 94% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.5% Ash
Momentum, 35/25, 96% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.0% Ash
Kinesis GF, 32/18, 92% Protein from Animal Sources, 6.9% Ash
Where did you get the information on how much of the protein is from animal sources?
 

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Where did you get the information on how much of the protein is from animal sources?
Dr. Hunt posts it on his Facebook Page, and if you call him he will gladly tell you. What I like about him is that he is totally transparent. He even tells you the brand of vitamins used, DSM Nutritional Products, will anyone tell you that? No, because most of the vitamins used are from China. He uses the most expensive pre-mix you can buy.

I have also done the calculation myself, I came up with slightly higher numbers. It is not that difficult. When you understand something like rice is 3% protein, you can easily see it could never contribute much protein.

Think about it. If the whole bag of food was rice the GA couldn't exceed 3%, right?

Where the rubber hits the road for me is the results, and when you see the pro's using this food, you have to wonder why. Clearly, when the Seavey family, among others, uses the food, you have to respect that.
 

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"Packed FULL of vegetable protein" What does that mean? Since you say you are not new to dog nutrition I think you should elaborate a bit more on that statement. Right now you sound uneducated. Why does it not compare to Orijen in your opinion and how is it packed full of vegetable protein?

Reading a label is too easy. There are many things a label does not say. One factor most overlook is that protein percentage is often given as per energy per weight unit. Meaning the energy provided by an ingredient to the finished product matters when evaluating foods and ingredients (how the manufacturer formulated the food) 20% of 80 calories is different than 20% of 380 calories when formulating a dog food.
Viking, Heath's is a typical comment. People don't understand that a list of ingredients the way pet food is presented is really not that informative. Most of the Dr. Tim foods have 6 or 7 concentrated animal sources spread out to balance the amino acids, and the foods are very heavy on chicken meal. Most companies will break the lead protein into a bunch of smaller ingredients so it appears there is more protein than there really is.

When you realize that grains and legumes other than lentils are pretty low in protein but "pea protein", "potato protein", "pea starch" and some others are moderate to almost 100% protein, it should start to fall into place.

But that poster's comment shows she doesn't know much.

Pursuit has about the same calories from carbs as Orijen and Momentum has far less, about the same as Evo. Momentum is among the lowest carb levels on the market, if not the lowest.
 

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Use Pursuit for that dog. Use a light hand too because the production method and some of the nutrient additions make this food stick.
that's what I'm leaning towards since he does best between 28-35% protein. Right now he's on First Mate maintenance which is chicken/rice and 26% protein, but I'm not happy with his coat, it actually started fading and has a bit of an orange tint to it which I've never seen before, it also feels very rough to the touch. I have an unopened bag of Back to Basics, so that's next on the list and then probably this food.
 
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