[anifunk1962]

I've been feeding my 2 dogs a raw diet for almost 5 months. They really like it, but I thought they would be doing better by now, especially the older dog (6 years old). I recently stumbled upon a website with a vet talking about a study she did with dogs on raw diets and high quality kibble and how the dogs on a raw diet, in the long term, didn't do as well as the others. She also talked about thyroid imbalance with a raw diet. So now I'm worried I'm making my dogs sick and am not sure what to do. I'm thinking about switching to a high-quality dry food. Any advice or suggestions?

 

[LabbieMama]

Oh, how I'd love to see RFD's response to this. Can't wait. RFD, are you awake?

 

[LabbieMama]

I've been feeding my 2 dogs a raw diet for almost 5 months. They really like it, but I thought they would be doing better by now, especially the older dog (6 years old). I recently stumbled upon a website with a vet talking about a study she did with dogs on raw diets and high quality kibble and how the dogs on a raw diet, in the long term, didn't do as well as the others. She also talked about thyroid imbalance with a raw diet. So now I'm worried I'm making my dogs sick and am not sure what to do. I'm thinking about switching to a high-quality dry food. Any advice or suggestions?

I'm not a raw feeder so I can't answer this, but RFD and rannmiller can of course help, and they sure will. Be assured, they will.

 

[anifunk1962]

I hope I'm not stirring up a hornet's nest. I just want to do what's best for my dogs. To be fair, the vet who did the study has her own line of dog food, but I've had a question in my mind about feeding raw for a while now because of what I've heard people say about dogs "evolving" and being "domesticated" and not adapting well to eating raw. I'm a little confused now because I can see the good and bad in both ways of feeding.

 

[LabbieMama]

I hope I'm not stirring up a hornet's nest.....

I just want to do what's best for my dogs. To be fair, the vet who did the study has her own line of dog food.

This just makes for interesting discussion which I appreciate because the Forum has been rather quiet lately.

Is the vet Dr. Jane Bicks who developed Life's Abundance dog food line? I have heard of her and the food she developed, in fact, I have had salespeople pushing Dr. Bicks' research and the food.

We all want to do what's best for our dogs. That's why we are here.

 

[RawFedDogs]

They really like it, but I thought they would be doing better by now, especially the older dog (6 years old).

In what way are they not doing better? In what way are they doing bad?

I recently stumbled upon a website with a vet talking about a study she did with dogs on raw diets and high quality kibble and how the dogs on a raw diet, in the long term, didn't do as well as the others.

Is this one study done by one vet who is pushing a brand of kibble? Define a "high quality kibble". Which raw diet? How long is "long term". How does she determine "didn't do as well"?

She also talked about thyroid imbalance with a raw diet.

There is no thyroid imbalance with a prey model raw diet. My dogs have been on a raw diet for 7 years with no thyroid imbalance. I had thyroid checked in one of them about a year ago and it was completely normal.

So now I'm worried I'm making my dogs sick and am not sure what to do.

It's easy to read these websites that are pushing garbage and get scared. They use these tactics to get you to purchase their food. You can read web pages that will tell you you are killing your dog by feeding raw. Believe me, if that were the case, my dogs would be dead by now. They are both perfectly healthy.

I'm thinking about switching to a high-quality dry food. Any advice or suggestions?

There is no such thing as a high-quality dry food. It is all highly processed garbage from the human food processing plants. If the ingredients weren't used it dog food they would go to the dump.

Stop worrying. Think about it. Wolves have been eating a raw diet for millions of years. What do you think people fed dogs 100 years ago? 200 years ago? Kibble has only been around for a little over 50 years. Why don't you ask the dog food companies to prove their garbage won't kill your dogs. IMO it does.

 

[RawFedDogs]

To be fair, the vet who did the study has her own line of dog food, but I've had a question in my mind about feeding raw for a while now because of what I've heard people say about dogs "evolving" and being "domesticated" and not adapting well to eating raw.

Dogs haven't evolved. They still have digestive systems identical to wild gray wolves. Kibble has only been around a short while. Certainly not long enough for a dog to eveolve to eat that junk food.

I'm a little confused now because I can see the good and bad in both ways of feeding.

If you can find anything good about kibble other than it's convenient and cheap, you found more than I have. That stuff is terrible to feed a dog. If you don't think so, try eating some yourself. See how you like it? Afraid to? then why feed it to your dog?

 

[JayJayisme]

Afraid to? then why feed it to your dog?

While I don't necessarily disagree with your position and advice RFD, at the same time, I don't eat raw beef, raw chicken, raw bones, and raw organs. Raw fish sometimes at my favorite sushi place, but that's it. Just because I won't eat it doesn't automatically make it bad for my dogs.

BTW, my pups are doing okay on raw chicken every other day or so. If I have a couple more weeks of success with it, I'll slowly reintroduce raw beef ribs back into their diet. Thanks for the advice to try chicken awhile back.

Jay

 

[RawFedDogs]

While I don't necessarily disagree with your position and advice RFD, at the same time, I don't eat raw beef, raw chicken, raw bones, and raw organs. Raw fish sometimes at my favorite sushi place, but that's it. Just because I won't eat it doesn't automatically make it bad for my dogs.

I do know several people who do eat raw meat. I know this one lady on another board who is in her 60's I think and she has eaten raw meat since she was 6 years old. She said her grandmother used to feed her raw hamburger when she was 6. She never cooks any of her food anytime. She correctly maintains that cooking destroys nutrients.

Kibble is cooked so not eating raw is no reason not to eat kibble. In my mind if a food is not good enough for me to eat, I won't feed it to my dogs. I will not put kibble in my mouth.

BTW, my pups are doing okay on raw chicken every other day or so. If I have a couple more weeks of success with it, I'll slowly reintroduce raw beef ribs back into their diet. Thanks for the advice to try chicken awhile back.

I suggest you feed pork ribs a few weeks before moving to beef. I don't remember the size of your dogs but for medium to large dogs, I suggest feeding a slab of ribs rather than indivual ribs. Even if a slab is too big, I would feed 3 or 4 ribs still attached in one piece.

 

[Doc]

I've moved from chicken backs, quarters, to turkey necks, and pork ribs. What's next other than some organs and fish? Beef ribs?

 

[RawFedDogs]

I've moved from chicken backs, quarters, to turkey necks, and pork ribs. What's next other than some organs and fish? Beef ribs?

Yes, or goat if you can find it or lamb if you can find it at a resonable price or venison. I think if I were you, I'd go ahead and start easing some liver or other organ meat into the diet. Just a little at a time with a meal.

ETA: All this is assuming they have good stools.

 

[DaneMama]

IMO....lets try and stay on topic for once LOL

I've been feeding my 2 dogs a raw diet for almost 5 months. They really like it, but I thought they would be doing better by now, especially the older dog (6 years old). I recently stumbled upon a website with a vet talking about a study she did with dogs on raw diets and high quality kibble and how the dogs on a raw diet, in the long term, didn't do as well as the others. She also talked about thyroid imbalance with a raw diet. So now I'm worried I'm making my dogs sick and am not sure what to do. I'm thinking about switching to a high-quality dry food. Any advice or suggestions?

Could you post up a link to the website? I would love to see what her study included as far as length and variables.

That would be most helpful in this thread I think...at least for me to put up an answer to what I read and get out of the website you found.

 

[LabbieMama]

Hasn't this subject (switching from raw to kibble) been discussed here on this Forum previously, I think if I remember rockymountainsweetie started a thread on that subject and talked about how her dogs lost weight and became ill on RAW so she put them back on kibble and suddenly they gained the weight back and seemed to thrive on the kibble...

I guess I'll have to dig through some old threads to find that one.

 

[whiteleo]

And where is Rockymountainsweetie today? I really had a hard time buying her explanations!

 

[anifunk1962]

This just makes for interesting discussion which I appreciate because the Forum has been rather quiet lately.

Is the vet Dr. Jane Bicks who developed Life's Abundance dog food line? I have heard of her and the food she developed, in fact, I have had salespeople pushing Dr. Bicks' research and the food.

We all want to do what's best for our dogs. That's why we are here.

The vet's name is Lisa S. Newman, N.D., PhD., and this is the website where I found the information: Cautions Against Raw Food Diets

 

[anifunk1962]

In what way are they not doing better? In what way are they doing bad?

The 3-year-old Jack Russell doesn't seem to be much different than he was before starting the raw diet, so I'm not concerned about him too much. The 6-year-old collie/terrier mix is getting very fat, even if he doesn't eat that much, and his coat seems more dull and is turning lighter in color. He also coughs frequently like something is stuck in his throat. They both scratch a lot but I don't remember whether they did that before. The Jack Russell chews his paws a lot but, again, I can't remember if this is new.

I guess I just expected them to be thriving by this time and they are obviously not. Maybe I expected too much too soon.

Is this one study done by one vet who is pushing a brand of kibble? Define a "high quality kibble". Which raw diet? How long is "long term". How does she determine "didn't do as well"?

Here is the website I found: Cautions Against Raw Food Diets

 

[anifunk1962]

Dogs haven't evolved. They still have digestive systems identical to wild gray wolves. Kibble has only been around a short while. Certainly not long enough for a dog to eveolve to eat that junk food.



If you can find anything good about kibble other than it's convenient and cheap, you found more than I have. That stuff is terrible to feed a dog. If you don't think so, try eating some yourself. See how you like it? Afraid to? then why feed it to your dog?

You seem a little angry. I don't mean to cause a heated debate. I only want my dogs to be healthy and am open to all choices of dog food. I won't go back to the cheap kibble from Wal-Mart or wherever and I won't go back to a dog food with grain in it.

No . . . I would not eat kibble. Neither would I eat raw meat and bones. Why? Because I'm "afraid to." I know some humans eat raw meat but I doubt that they eat the bones too. I have heard of dogs eating road kill that has been flattened and baked in the sun for days, but I wouldn't eat that. I wouldn't eat any meat that I had gotten from someone on Craig's List who were cleaning out their freezer. I wouldn't eat other animals' poop like some dogs do. I wouldn't eat bugs (although some humans do). I think you get my point . . . I wouldn't eat a lot of things that dogs eat, so that argument doesn't really convince me.

I was just asking for advice or suggestions - not a lecture.

By the way, as far as kibble being cheap? . . . in my opinion, some of it is rather expensive.

 

[anifunk1962]

IMO....lets try and stay on topic for once LOL




Could you post up a link to the website? I would love to see what her study included as far as length and variables.

That would be most helpful in this thread I think...at least for me to put up an answer to what I read and get out of the website you found.

Here is the website I found: Cautions Against Raw Food Diets

 

[anifunk1962]

I think I said the doctor who did the study on the BARF diet was a vet. I was wrong about that. She is an "N.D., PhD." and has both human and animal clients. Just wanted to clarify that.

 

[JayJayisme]

After a quick glance at the page where this "study" is posted (don't have time to read it carefully right now), this was based on the B.A.R.F. diet, which includes (or did at the time) 25% raw fruits and vegetables. This is not the prey model raw diet. Apples and oranges (or meat and potatoes if you prefer :wink: )

What I think is odd about the B.A.R.F. thing (from my understanding of it) is that the vegetables are fed in a raw state. I would think if anything should be cooked before it is given to a dog, it should be vegetables. They really don't have the means to process and digest raw vegetables so if that makes up 25% of their diet, it's no wonder they don't do well on it.

It would be interesting to see a modern study like this that includes the prey model diet in the comparison, along with some of the newer, modern, high quality commercial dog foods. It's clear that almost all the information out there on one side of the fence or the other is purely anecdotal. But it's also clear that not all "raw" diets are the same. B.A.R.F. and prey model are two different things.