[Kat]

My adult pug gets hunger pukes once in a while. She got it in the beginning of raw, until I upped her intake, and then it stopped... She just wasn't getting enough food. Now, she hunger pukes once in a while, it's very rare that she does. Usually she does a little hunger puke in the morning if she ate a turkey neck the night before, and she will throw up a little piece of bone that didn't digest.

I recently started supplementing, since I don't get all grass fed meats. I use bioage biopreperation f2+. It contains 3 different algaes.

I tried home cooking in between kibble to raw transition. I did it for a month and then switched to raw, I was not happy with my pugs teeth on home cooked, they were getting too dirty. Also, my pug can't handle veggies in her diet, it made her really gassy, and it made her have big messy poops.

 

[Gally]

I can't say my experience correlates with what you are saying DaViking. My last dog was fed Iams her whole life, which I think is fairly low in meat content at least comparatively and had "hunger pukes" at various times throughout her life.
Gally used to get hunger pukes while eating kibble (Acana and Blue Buffalo Wilderness) but hasn't had any since the first month of being fed a prey model diet (now 7 months in).

 

[DaViking]

I tried home cooking in between kibble to raw transition. I did it for a month and then switched to raw, I was not happy with my pugs teeth on home cooked, they were getting too dirty. Also, my pug can't handle veggies in her diet, it made her really gassy, and it made her have big messy poops.

Home cooking takes a lot of effort and knowledge to get right.

 

[Kat]

Home cooking takes a lot of effort and knowledge to get right.

Yeah, I'm not arguing that, I completely agree. Home cooking was not for me and my dog. I found it difficult, and incredibly time consuming.

 

[DaViking]

I can't say my experience correlates with what you are saying DaViking. My last dog was fed Iams her whole life, which I think is fairly low in meat content at least comparatively and had "hunger pukes" at various times throughout her life.
Gally used to get hunger pukes while eating kibble (Acana and Blue Buffalo Wilderness) but hasn't had any since the first month of being fed a prey model diet (now 7 months in).

I would puke to if I was fed Iams my whole life :smile: Hunger pukes doesn't exist and what you are saying contradicts what's offered as an "explanation" on the PMR website, if you wanna call it an explanation :smile: Obviously individual dogs can puke for all kinds of reasons, including kibble issues, but that doesn't change the fact that a meat heavy diet will cause much more acid produced compared to home cooked, canned or kibble. In some dogs this will manifest itself by puking bile. Dogs who do not puke bile could still have acid issues on a meat heavy diet.

 

[Celt]

Hunger pukes doesn't exist.

I have to say that I disagree with this comment. I've own many dogs and a small handful would puke if not fed "on time". The reason why I try not to feed on a schedule now. My boy, Blaise is hypoglycemic. When he hasn't eaten enough, he will puke. If I make sure that he gets the "correct" amount of food, there is no puking. As I've stated before, I feed lots of foods. It doesn't matter if it's meat or kibble, if he doesn't eat "enough", I will be cleaning up foamy, yellow puke.

 

[DaViking]

I have to say that I disagree with this comment. I've own many dogs and a small handful would puke if not fed "on time". The reason why I try not to feed on a schedule now. My boy, Blaise is hypoglycemic. When he hasn't eaten enough, he will puke. If I make sure that he gets the "correct" amount of food, there is no puking. As I've stated before, I feed lots of foods. It doesn't matter if it's meat or kibble, if he doesn't eat "enough", I will be cleaning up foamy, yellow puke.

As I said, dogs can puke for many reasons. The whole point is to not trivialize it and pretend it is nothing to worry about by calling it "hunger pukes". If your dog will puke next time around and next time around if not fed means something is wrong, not that his stomach is empty and he's hungry. Acid levels from a prey type raw diet is one of the flaws (note, a flaw, not saying it's wrong) of feeding PMR to domestic dogs that are in a vastly different situation than wild canids. Improper acid balance is one of the biggest cause of recurring puking bile. Digestion of meat is a big contributor, for some it's a combination of several things coming together.

 

[Gally]

Did a bit of research and I believe what we are actually talking about is bilious vomiting syndrome. From what I can find, the exact cause is not 100% known at this point but it is generally agreed that a build up of bile in the stomach between meals irritates the digestive system and causes puking. The recommended treatment is to feed smaller but more frequent meals, especially an extra meal before bed.

I understand that the stomach acids in a dogs stomach are much more acidic than a kibble fed dog but this doesn't explain why dogs on all types of diets from very low in meat content to full prey model raw have been reported to have this syndrome. Could you link to me to an article about the link between high acidity in raw fed dogs stomachs and vomiting or erosion of the digestive tract?

 

[Roo]

Obviously individual dogs can puke for all kinds of reasons, including kibble issues, but that doesn't change the fact that a meat heavy diet will cause much more acid produced compared to home cooked, canned or kibble. In some dogs this will manifest itself by puking bile. Dogs who do not puke bile could still have acid issues on a meat heavy diet.

Acid levels from a prey type raw diet is one of the flaws (note, a flaw, not saying it's wrong) of feeding PMR to domestic dogs that are in a vastly different situation than wild canids. Improper acid balance is one of the biggest cause of recurring puking bile. Digestion of meat is a big contributor, for some it's a combination of several things coming together.

Is it a flaw or is it "normal" for a dog to have the lower PH and that most kibbles with higher carbohydrate amounts create an unnormal higher PH level?

If bile is bound by increased fiber intake not allowing reabsorbtion by the small intestine, wouldn't the liver have to produce more bile essentially? Wouldn't this mean a higher bile production with kibble vs raw? Yes raw contains fiber (bone) and for those feeding BARF (the added veggies and fruit) but my guess is it's usually less than what's found in most kibbles.
flowsheetnotes.htm

I would have to agree with this. Early in the morning after eating raw my dog has a bile puke. It is not hunger as I feed a 1/2-3/4 pound turkey neck or a 3/4 pound chicken quarter. She is 40 pounds and this should constitute as an entire meal for her (so I am surmising that it is not hunger).
So her feeding schedule is as follows: 1/2-3/4 cup of kibble in the morning at 8:30-9am and then a turkey neck or chicken quarter at 7-8 pm in the evening. She gets her hunger pukes before I get up in the morning so I would guess from 5-6 am. Notice she gets her "hunger pukes" after she has eaten raw and NOT after eating the kibble...

Maybe because you're feeding both raw and kibble, so your dog's PH levels can't adjust properly with the constant switch between higher and lower acidic meals and bile production by the liver, so it can't produce enough bicarbonate with the raw meals to neutralize the acidity of the stomach contents and the fiber in the bone in meals along with the fiber consumed in the dry food on a regular basis are creating more bile to be produced?

When I experienced "hunger pukes" with one of my dogs it seemed to be caused by undigested bone still sitting in the digestive tract several hours later after eating her raw dinner. Incidentally when I stopped feeding bone in meals or bone heavy meals at dinner time and fed them only as morning meals, the 4 or 5 am hunger pukes stopped happening. For my dogs there is longer time between dinner and breakfast than there is between breakfast and dinner as far as feeding times.

 

[DaViking]

Is it a flaw or is it "normal" for a dog to have the lower PH and that most kibbles with higher carbohydrate amounts create an unnormal higher PH level?

If bile is bound by increased fiber intake not allowing reabsorbtion by the small intestine, wouldn't the liver have to produce more bile essentially? Wouldn't this mean a higher bile production with kibble vs raw? Yes raw contains fiber (bone) and for those feeding BARF (the added veggies and fruit) but my guess is it's usually less than what's found in most kibbles.

Vomiting is incredible multi faceted. Reading the literature you will find more hypothesis, theories and speculation than in any other area. The "flaw" isn't a normal state of lower pH but rather how much more ultra low gastric acid need to be produced many times per day to handle the protein content from raw meat, compared to wild canids. For the record, newer high protein grain *in* kibble formulas (old formulas too but there the protein is more restricted) also result in a lower pH in the stomach. Based on experience I question how appropriate this is for a large number of dogs. In terms of "flaws" my baseline is wild canids and trust me when I say I believe kibble have more than it's fair share too :smile:

There was a raw advocate Dr here who I forgot the name of that had an interesting theory based on anticipation and digestive "programming" Have nothing to do with hunger, rate of digestion or residual "gunk" from kibble. You can speculate that this anticipation kickstarts the pancreas and the liver and stomach acidity will start to adjust downwards before anything is there.

 

[Roo]

The "flaw" isn't a normal state of lower pH but rather how much more ultra low gastric acid need to be produced many times per day to handle the protein content from raw meat, compared to wild canids. For the record, newer high protein grain *in* kibble formulas also result in a lower pH in the stomach. Based on experience I question how appropriate this is for a large number of dogs. In terms of "flaws" my baseline is wild canids and trust me kibble have more than it's fair share too

I'd be curious to see the PH numbers on all of this and what your definition of ultra low PH is, the numbers I'm reading from vets is a PH of 2 is "normal" and most kibble fed dogs are usually higher, with the PH being needed to be at least 4 or under for protein, I believe. It talks about all of this in the link I provided.

 

[DaViking]

I'd be curious to see the PH numbers on all of this and what you're definition of ultra low PH is, the numbers I'm reading from vets is a PH of 2 is "normal" and most kibble fed dogs are usually higher, with the PH being needed to be at least 4 or under for protein, I believe. It talks about all of this in the link I provided.

The gastric pH of dogs can reach as low as 0.5pH during the first 30 minutes, mean in some studies is 2, in others 1.08. Battery acid is below 1 so 0.5 would be ultra low and lots of mucous have to be produced in order to protect the stomach.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4026035
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19177514
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7189099

 

[Roo]

Thanks, now can you share the research on the PH numbers specifically recorded for raw fed dogs vs kibble fed, and can you share some studies/information showing any damage or issues with the recorded low PH numbers for raw fed dogs? Or were you just giving an unproven opinion/theory on the PH levels of high protein raw diets?

 

[DaViking]

Thanks, now can you share the research on the PH numbers specifically recorded for raw fed dogs vs kibble fed

You know perfectly well there is close to no worthwhile studies done on raw, let alone production of gastric acids in raw fed dogs.

, and can you share some studies/information showing any damage or issues with the recorded low PH numbers for raw fed dogs?

Again, why do you ask when you know the answer? There is no studies to my knowledge showing damage in raw fed dogs as a result of low pH values. Nor have I claimed this is a sweeping problem.

Or were you just giving an unproven opinion/theory on the PH levels of high protein raw diets?

That's a grand sentiment coming from a raw feeder, I'll make a mental note of your standards. Tell you what. I first made a long reply explaining in detail why this is more than an "unproven opinion" and how it is drawn from a combination of what we already know about canine digestion, bile and mucous production and almost 25 years of successfully helping dogs ranging from indoor lap dogs to Iditarod winners with their diet challenges. You are welcome to disregard everything.

Gally is on to something for a subset of cases. Question is, what's the underlying cause? No one will sign off on anything.

 

[Roo]

Daviking, clearly I should have written my post a little differently so as not to be misunderstood, I apologize.

I was actually serious when asking for studies/information etc. on the subject, studies come out all the time don't they? You did mention that that you thought not only raw but higher protein kibbles as possibly causing PH issues, while I agree raw studies are almost non existent, I think there are nutritional studies done using kibble. I know you have a lot of knowledge on dog nutrition, and was seriously asking if you had come across some info on it, something that points in the direction of your (now known) theory.

What does specifically being a raw feeder have to do with unproven theories or opinions? I've always been under the impression that unproven theories and opinions exist in dog nutrition in general as a whole not just in raw feeding or kibble feeding etc. When did an "unproven opinion or theory" get such a negative meaning? I thought it just meant that the theory or opinion presented was as it states, just unproven, nothing more.

You said once in a post to me "First of all, kudos for actually taking the time to provide some meaningful background for your arguments, not to mention to add value regardless of view. More should follow your example if they think their claims could be remotely controversial."

I'm not sure about my standards, but I think I was just asking if you could provide some meaningful background for your position, that's all.

 

[Roo]

Ok, went back and reread your explanation and found Dr. Brady's posts on stomach acid with feeding raw/high protein diets.

A dog will ultimately throw up bile when there is an excess of acid produced by an improperly balanced meat heavy diet. Meat require lots of acid to be digested, starch requires close to zero acid production. If a dog frequently throw up bile the worst thing you can do is to give your dog a meat snack because you think he/she is hungry. Sure it will temporarily stop the barfing but it will also cause the stomach acidity to go down (yet again) towards battery acid levels. A dogs stomach lining can sustain ultra low acid levels for a short period but if it is more or less a constant state damage will slowly occur. Some like to bring in the wolf as an example. A wolf do not get fed a constant stream of meats. It can take a long time until he/she eats again so a constant state of dangerously low acid levels is not an issue for wild wolfs.

I think I have a better understanding of where your theory is coming from, but still have some questions.

This is the part I'm confused about. . .

A dogs stomach lining can sustain ultra low acid levels for a short period but if it is more or less a constant state damage will slowly occur.

In order for a dog to vomit due to over production of bile from a meat heavy diet, wouldn't it occur fairly soon after eating and not like 8 hours later if digestion with raw happens more quickly and the PH can only remain at low levels for 5 hours?

If the PH levels are only low for 5 hours or so, and there are a large amount of time each day in which the dog's stomach acid PH goes back up, how is that a constant state of extremely low battery acid levels?

What about the mucous, it seems to be indicated that the stomach with the mucous lining can handle the low stomach acid and be protected as Dr. Brady points out, it's the small intestines that can't handle the low acid and are usually protected by the release of bicarbonate to inactivate pepsin levels. It's been suggested in the link I provided in earlier posts that the ability for a dog to produce bicarbonate is adaptable in time with the change in diet acidity. *If it is adaptable, if being key, then I don't see the issue with the low PH levels and potential damage with high protein diets.

I'm wondering this because of Dr. Brady's statements.
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/1857-stomach-acid-ph-raw-fed-dogs-3.html

"At it's most acidic (during digestion) the dog's gut can reach below pH1.0, equivalent to car battery acid, a level it can remain at for 5 hours (Itoh et al. 1980, Sagawa et al., 2009). Youngberg et al. (1985) found the average gastric pH of dogs ranges from pH1.5 ranging to pH2.1 a couple of hours after consuming a meal, when gastric juices would be in full flow. At this sort of acidity a meat and bone is rapidly broken down, often reduced to chyme within an hour (Lonsdale, 2001)."

"Great quantities of mucous protect the dog from doing itself damage. Post-digestion the stomach will abruptly change to neutral, presumably to neutralise the corrosive acid before it hits the duodenum and intestines that are less equipped to withstand the corrosive power of a pH1 acid broth."

Another thing I was wondering, if meat requires more stomach acid production in order to be digested, and water reduces stomach acid pretty quickly, would the high water content in raw affect the HCL amounts?

 

[servant_hugi]

you used too much veggie!! switched

 

[LeonilCraig]

Many people love to lavish food treats on their dogs: bacon and cheese snacks, pig ears, and an endless stream of table scraps. But all those indulgences come at a hefty price. Before Fido turns fat, it may be time to consider healthy dog treats. Great ideas!

 

[lauren43]

Many people love to lavish food treats on their dogs: bacon and cheese snacks, pig ears, and an endless stream of table scraps. But all those indulgences come at a hefty price. Before Fido turns fat, it may be time to consider healthy dog treats. Great ideas!

While this is a great thread. Please refrain from bringing back multiple threads from the dead.

 

[kyleharlan123]

I use pedgree food for my dog but many time he rejected the food, I cant understand why he behave like that, is he ll or having other problem please suggest me..... THanks