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Does anyone know of any scientific studies that show any difference in the stomach acid pH levels between kibble/commercially fed dogs and raw (RMB) fed dogs? Or for that matter, between typical domestic dogs and wolves?

I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."

Do we know that as fact or is this speculation? If fact, what are the actual numbers? How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?

There are two reasons I am curious about this.

One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.

Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.

I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?
 

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Sorry if this is less than coherent. It's late and I should be studying for OChem. Eh, I guess I could use a study break. :tongue:

Does anyone know of any scientific studies that show any difference in the stomach acid pH levels between kibble/commercially fed dogs and raw (RMB) fed dogs? Or for that matter, between typical domestic dogs and wolves?
None that I know of. Studies on dogs are tough. Dogs are expensive and people like dogs. In order to due the study that you are asking for one would either have to (a) kill the dog to stick a pH meter into their gut or (b) perform a gastrulation on the dogs which is a process where one literally inserts an outlet into the dog's side that extends to the stomach which would allow one to measure the pH of the stomach contents in vivo. Problems with gastrulation are that it is expensive, the dog would be unable to live a fulfilling life after the study, and I'm not sure if it has ever even been performed before, let alone in a full blown study.

I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."

Do we know that as fact or is this speculation? If fact, what are the actual numbers? How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?
Speculation. :smile: While I don't know of every single study ever done, the ones I do know of don't cover that sort of variation in diet. It would also be difficult to even determine a control for that sort of thing. It is interesting, actually, because more recent studies in the past ten years have been showing that the stomach pH of a dog is actually higher than the past accepted numbers! How controversial! :biggrin:

More likely than not, it is the dog's microbes in the intestines that have to get used to the new diet instead of the stomach acid. Save for serious health complications, I can't imagine anything that could physically increase the number of parietal cells in the stomach after maturation. Parietal cells are the cells that release the hydrochloric acid into the stomach for chemical digestion and they are generally thought to have a fixed amount of output of HCl per cell. Maybe an increase in production of pepsinogen, the precursor to pepsin which is the enzyme responsible for protein digestion. I don't believe that is fixed.

With the microbes, which cattle, pigs, horses, humans, and probably many species, it has been shown that diet should change slowly to accommodate the microbes. Let's use humans as an example. Generally, humans have a diet low in insoluble fiber and have the microbe population in their gut used to a diet high in soluble fiber and low in insoluble fiber. If the person were to suddenly switch to a high insoluble fiber diet, they would get an upset "stomach" (but it's actually their intestines) and probably a bit gassy. You can try that out for yourself if you feel so inclined: just load up on celery!

There are two reasons I am curious about this.

One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.

Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.
Eh, luck. I went on a camping trip with my pooch a while ago. I DIDN'T drink the stream water and got giardia because my friend dropped the "clean side" of the pump into the stream and didn't tell me. Fabulous! My dog only drank out of the stream (I offered her other water but she declined) and didn't. She was on Wellness at the time.

I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?
Maybe. I looked up pH tolerance on PubMed to see if there was anything out and I didn't have much luck. I did find out that their do require a more neutral environment to undergo cystation, but that would happen whether or not a dog is raw fed or not since there will always be the transition for the acidic stomach to the alkaline intestine.

Very good thinking though. :smile:
 

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I keep reading over and over that dogs have a pH level in their stomach of between 1~2. Then I recalled a post from RFD stating that during the initial stages of moving a dog from kibble to raw, their "...their stomach juices become more acid. Kibble causes the juices to become less acid because of the carbs in it."
As I remember, several years ago in a discussion with Tom Lonsdale, he explained that when humans eat a meal high in carbs, the stomach acidity drops and when humans eat a meal high in meat content, the stomach becomes more acid. This is naturally because it takes a stronger acid to digest meat.

From that discussion, I inferred that dogs stomachs operated the same way and since kibble is a high carb food, stomach juices are not so acidic. Raw fed dogs eat very little if any carbs therefore their stomach juices are more acidic. In other words, the great percentages of meat injested creates a more acidic stomach.

Do we know that as fact or is this speculation?
A little of both.

If fact, what are the actual numbers?
Don't know, don't care. I have some links somewhere that will tell you all that and they don't all agree. They are just numbers. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to numbers. Neither us nor our dogs eat numbers. We eat food.

How much does it change between a kibble fed domestic dog, a raw fed domestic dog, and a wild dog (wolf)?
Don't know that either. The raw fed domestic and wild dog would have to be very close and they both should be more acidic than a kibble fed dog. Remember, all this happens only when there is food in the dog's stomach. The content of the food will determine the acidity.

One, a documented change in pH levels when transitioning a dog from kibble to raw would be serious ammo in the debate to support raw feeding. In other words, a dog eating a natural, species-appropriate diet would achieve a "natural" pH level in their digestive tract whereas a dog eating kibble has an "unnatural" pH level.
Yes but remember that digestive juices are only secreted into the stomach only when the dog (or human or other animal) is eating. Content of the food will determine exactly what is secreted into the stomach.

Two, in my own dogs I noticed that since they've been on raw for awhile, they haven't contracted Giardia or Coccidia even though on a recent vacation, they drank from wild streams and lakes, which may have been a source of Giardia in the past with them. Frankly, I expected to come home from this last trip and drive straight to the vet to have them tested just like I had to do the last time we did this trip earlier this year (when they were on kibble). But they show no signs of parasitic contamination this time even though I'm sure they drank from some impure water sources at least once or twice on this most recent trip, just like the last time.
My dogs drink from a stagnant swamp regularly with no ill effects. I attribute that to the stronger immune system that has been fed a natural diet. I don't THINK stomach juices are secreted when drinking. I might be wrong about that.

I'm theorizing that their current natural pH level is high enough to kill a lot of the parasites that they couldn't fend off when they were on kibble. Possible? Comments?
Possible but also a stronger immune system is bound to play a role. My dogs are outside a lot and they eat dirt, drink stagnant water, eat bugs and worms and other wild critters like squirrels and rabbits and vohls and chipmonks. Some of those wild critters MUST have parasites of some form but my dogs never show any sign of any problem with any of it nor do my cats. I know the cats eat wild critters almost every day. Sometimes (ok, often) they bring them inside to eat them. :smile:
 

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Just a quick correction on when gastric secretions occur. In most animals, including dogs, gastric secretions begin when the animal thinks it is going to eat. Ever notice how you feel hungrier right when you see/smell food? :wink:

This is not true in equids.

I was also thinking about it with the (supposed) pH drop with when consuming meat. Meat has a lower pH than vegetable foods, so it may be that it is more congruent with the existing pH and limiting the increase in pH more so than with vegetable foods, which are more neutral.

HCl also has little direct effect on the catabolic activities in protein digestion other than the fact that it triggers the conversion of pepsinogen to pepsin. Pepsin is only activated in an acidic environment and is what is responsible for breaking huge proteins into amino acids to be absorbed in the duodenum, or the first portion of the small intestine. Pepsin is activated in its proper active at any pH below 3. Above 3 till about 4.5, pepsin is still present in its active form, but it is also present in other active species that are less able to break down proteins.
 

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Just a quick correction on when gastric secretions occur. In most animals, including dogs, gastric secretions begin when the animal thinks it is going to eat. Ever notice how you feel hungrier right when you see/smell food? :wink:
Yes, that is a more accurate statement. As Dr. Lonsdale said, when the dog starts chewing, juices start flowing. The act of chewing causes the stomach to create the juices. He also explained, if I remember correctly, that when dogs who are gulpers eat kibble or even ground meat, the food often reaches the stomach before the digestive juices do. That, in itself, can cause digestive problems and can cause a dog to vomit just after eating. That is a good reason to feed RMB's. To allow the stomach to "be ready" for the food when it arrives.
 

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Yes, that is a more accurate statement. As Dr. Lonsdale said, when the dog starts chewing, juices start flowing. The act of chewing causes the stomach to create the juices. He also explained, if I remember correctly, that when dogs who are gulpers eat kibble or even ground meat, the food often reaches the stomach before the digestive juices do. That, in itself, can cause digestive problems and can cause a dog to vomit just after eating. That is a good reason to feed RMB's. To allow the stomach to "be ready" for the food when it arrives.
Hmm... from my understanding, they just have to LOOK at food to have the gastric juices flowing. Same with us. In know in horses, some gastric secretions are stimulated by just applying force on the molars. But they won't even start salivating till then. This is seen when floating a horse's teeth where one takes a rasp to the molars for dental work, the horse will start salivating. Weird, huh?

I suppose if that is true, I'm in the clear since the pups get chicken jerky on top of their kibble which, OF COURSE, they go for first. :tongue:
 

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BTW, I will look into that later and see what I can dig up in my mountains of textbooks and journals. This should be fun! :rolleyes:
 

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Bump!

This was an interesting read. Did a google search and came across this page, then read the thread. Very interesting. Anyone have any thoughts?

Thought I would bump this up for discussion since I am about to hit the back button to read more on what it was that I was intending to search...then got lost in the thread. ;)
 

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Dogs have the same stomach acid we do it is just in a different concentration than us humans.

Bill was correct. Depending on the food eaten depends on the acid secreted.

We use acid to break down amino-acids as despite their name they basic not acidic. We use enzymes to break down carbohydrates.

When we feed a dog kibble they are given a diet rich in carbohydrate and processed protein. Neither of these things require a lot of acid to digest.

When we feed raw meat which has long chain and branched chain amino acids then the dog needs way more acid to break them down (note this is not a catalytic reaction the H+ ions are stuck onto the amino acids and taken through the body).

We also feed bone, which is high in calcium carbonate. We will know carbonates from ant-acid tablets we all take the morning after (i'm sure it's not just me). again this means the dog has to produce more acid to be able to digest the bone. (see the pick of the bone from snorkels).

There is a fine balancing act between the stomach and the intestine. The stomach only opens when the acid levels are correct in the intestine and the stomach, and the stomach contents are sufficiently glob like. This is why it is unusual for a dog to pass a bone right through the intestine. It does happen at the start because the stomach acids are used up and the stomach opens to the intestine as the acid drive is the main control.

Hope that all makes sense :). Like the first reply I am supposed to be revising Biochem / psychiatry and neurology....... But dogs are so much more interesting :-O
 

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I miss Bill.....................
 
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I miss Bill.....................
I think we all do.

To be honest this post is not worthy of a sticky. The original discussion does nor really add a lot and there are irrelevancies when they start discussion pepsin and pepsiogen. Likewise to the debate about secretions and eating is also not fully there, or the simple test to find out the concentrations. I would also say the concentration pH debate is also incorrect, pH is not a marker of concentration it is a marker of dissociation.

I know it has been viewed by 1600 or so people, but if people want to search for stomach acids as Kelly did then they will come across it.

Obviously just my 2 pence worth :).
 

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Bill decided it was time to move on, I guess at some point we all do..He use to moderate this forum, I learned to raw feed from him..
 

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After a while, its all the same questions and answers. I learned back in 2007 (from Bill and some others on a different forum before this one was made) about raw feeding. Then I did it part time and read and asked enough questions and then it became repetitive. Plus, that forum had some snippy, snotty, stuck up people in it. So I kind of moseyed along. Then I started thinking about full time raw and found this forum. I like a lot of the people here right now so I don't plan to leave right away. But, you long timers, you see the same questions over and over right? I don't mind answering them over and over. I think Bill got tired of it.
 

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After a while, its all the same questions and answers. I learned back in 2007 (from Bill and some others on a different forum before this one was made) about raw feeding. Then I did it part time and read and asked enough questions and then it became repetitive. Plus, that forum had some snippy, snotty, stuck up people in it. So I kind of moseyed along. Then I started thinking about full time raw and found this forum. I like a lot of the people here right now so I don't plan to leave right away. But, you long timers, you see the same questions over and over right? I don't mind answering them over and over. I think Bill got tired of it.
I just let someone else answer the questions when they have been asked the week before by someone else...LOL We do have a search feature on this forum but I don't think many people know about it.....
 

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I just let someone else answer the questions when they have been asked the week before by someone else...LOL We do have a search feature on this forum but I don't think many people know about it.....
I still have trouble using it so when I first came on here no way. Now I am going to go there right now and look something up hope I find it.
 
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