[magicre]

Thanks to RFD, i'm going to try this again....

a little history, which is why this is an attempt, not carved in stone.

i thought i was concientious with feeding....but because of my own ignorance, i believe my shih tzus died before their time, given the food i was feeding.

without going into great detail for they are dead now.....they at least made it to 13ish.....i have vowed to never feed kibble again....even though we did switch to wellness super five lamb/barley/salmon, along with some concoctions i came up with...and life was good.

until.

i started reading up about cooked and raw diets.

the one that makes the most sense, to me, for obvious reasons and from what i know of nutrition that i've now been studying for six years....at least human nutrition....is that both humans and dogs should eat as close to nature as possible.

while i do eat some raw....sashimi, carpaccio, tartare, it's not part of my overall diet..

however, for dogs it should be, as you well know.

i started them on raw in february...at the time, malia (female - 10) had just been diagnosed with giardia and was just coming off the meds...

Bubba - male - almost 3 - had just had major eye surgery for pug issues....he was also treated for giardia.

i can see now that most of what came next may very well have been user error....too much meat, not enough bone.

so.

RFD gave me a guideline to follow, which is what i am doing, starting today.

because of the wind storm yesterday, malia already has the runs....wind storms do that to her and have ever since she crawled out of a georgia ditch at five weeks, up our driveway and into our heart...

bubba....he's an anxious dog that we've had for 6 months...he was cabled to a crate in a garage with a bleached anus...on pedigree..he is scared of everything

he was not housetrained or fixed nor did he have any social skills with humans or dogs.

both have come a long way, so raw it is.

i fed them chicken backs, as clean as possible, removing excess skin and fat and organs....

bubba's poop early this morning was solid....malia's was still runny from the wind storm yesterday.

bubba now has mucus and it is soft....

not everyone goes through this do they?

do i just have special dogs?

is it possible that they will never make the transition?

i have vowed to be patient and not quit after a week..i will make sure they don't get dehydrated and for now, they will stay on the probiotic, plus a little rice and yams, just to give them fibre...

then we will wean....

anything else i should be doing?

i figure the first week will just be backs....and then we'll slowly add in ounce appropriate quarters for the second meal of the day....and then we'll see.

sorry for the long winded post...it's been pretty frustrating and i so want this for my babies.

 

[CorgiPaws]

not everyone goes through this do they?

do i just have special dogs?

is it possible that they will never make the transition?

Some dogs have a flawless transition, some take a little more time. What you're seeing is pretty normal, and I wouldn't worry about it really. They will in fact transition to a PMR diet if you take it slow, feed the right things, and just be patient.

i have vowed to be patient and not quit after a week..i will make sure they don't get dehydrated and for now, they will stay on the probiotic, plus a little rice and yams, just to give them fibre...

then we will wean....

anything else i should be doing?

There's really isn't any weaning onto PMR... you just do it "cold turkey" so to speak. I would eliminate at least the rice and yams, which are full of carbs, and entirely uncalled for for a canine. If there is too much trouble transitioning, these will be to blame.

i figure the first week will just be backs....and then we'll slowly add in ounce appropriate quarters for the second meal of the day....and then we'll see.

This sounds perfect. Stick to JUST chicken. No add ins. No veggies. No grains. No other meats. JUST bone in chicken.

 

[DaneMama]

If you follow the guide below in the transition I can guarantee your dogs will switch over to raw easily and with the least amount of digestive issues/upset. Its a tried and true method that has been used by many.

Feeding guideline: Feed 2-3% of your dogs weight per day. For example, if your dog weighs 60 pounds, feed 1.2 to 1.8 pounds per day. This might have to be increased or decreased depending on your dogs activity level and age.

First two weeks:

Fast your dog the first day, no kibble or treats or raw food. Water is ok.

NOTHING but bone in chicken. This means for your sized dog:

Chicken wings/drummies
Chicken backs or frames
Chicken thighs

Give one meal in the AM and one in the PM

Third week:

Add in turkey on alternating meals (chicken meal in AM, turkey in PM). This means:

Turkey necks (cut up in appropriate sizes)
*** pretty much a whole turkey can be fed, but butchered up into portions.

Fourth week:

Add in pork alternating days with chicken and turkey (feed chx AM, pork PM...then next day chx AM and turkey PM...then chx AM and pork PM....so on and so forth). This means:

Pork neck bones (cut an appropriate size for a meal)
Pork ribs (you should be able to eye ball a meals worth)
Pork meat, boneless (feed small amount if there is no bone)

Fifth week:

Add in fish alternating days with chicken, turkey, and pork (feed chx AM, fish PM...next day chx AM, turkey PM...next day chx AM, pork PM....next day chx AM, fish PM...so on and so forth)

Either canned or fresh (appropriate amount)

Sixth Week:

Add in beef, same routine as before. This means:

Beef heart (eye ball a good sized meal chunk)
Ground beef (not ideal source of beef but it will be ok if fed only once a week)

***You should strive to feed a different protein source everyday of the week, and then start over with your rotation again the next week. Add in as many protein sources as you can afford or what is convenient (you could even be on a two week schedule if you have that many choices of meats).***

DO NOT add organ meats (liver and kidney) until 2-3 months into raw feeding. Add in VERY slowly and in VERY small amount to an already well established meat meal (ie chicken meal) once every 2 weeks. Then gradually work it into your rotation weekly.

 

[magicre]

since i already started...i can stop the yams and rice...i figured, they are eating grass anyway and not throwing up...

so it seems to me they are, i guess, getting their own filler....

but do i want to fast them now that i've started?

NOTHING but bone in chicken. This means for your sized dog:

Chicken wings/drummies
Chicken backs or frames
Chicken thighs

i am feeding backs...but what do you mean by several...one back without the trimmings is about 5-6 oz...and i'm cutting them in half for bubba...

RFD has malia who should weigh 36 lbs.....getting approximately 10 oz per day, that's five oz per meal

and bubba who is a perfect 18 lbs is getting 6 oz per day...so 3 oz per meal....

right now, they are only getting backs...well, right now, meaning one meal this morning.

malia's runs are from the wind storm...she's got baggage from her earlier life...and has carried it with her....

but, okay, i will cut out the probiotics and yams and rice..and not feed either one of them tonight, which will have fasted them for 24 hours by tomorrow morning..

that sound about right?

 

[DaneMama]

since i already started...i can stop the yams and rice...i figured, they are eating grass anyway and not throwing up...

so it seems to me they are, i guess, getting their own filler....

but do i want to fast them now that i've started?

i am feeding backs...but what do you mean by several...one back without the trimmings is about 5-6 oz...and i'm cutting them in half for bubba...

RFD has malia who should weigh 36 lbs.....getting approximately 10 oz per day, that's five oz per meal

and bubba who is a perfect 18 lbs is getting 6 oz per day...so 3 oz per meal....

right now, they are only getting backs...well, right now, meaning one meal this morning.

malia's runs are from the wind storm...she's got baggage from her earlier life...and has carried it with her....

but, okay, i will cut out the probiotics and yams and rice..and not feed either one of them tonight, which will have fasted them for 24 hours by tomorrow morning..

that sound about right?

I copied and pasted that from another thread, someone asked for a guide to follow on what exactly they should feed each week, but that was for a golden ret. SORRY! I edited it a bit to be appropriate for your smaller dogs. Its best to start out on the smaller end for meals in the beginning because overfeeding can also cause digestive upset. I'm just used to feeding BIG dogs, and forget how little you feed smaller ones LOL. Your math is absolutely correct in the amounts to feed...so stick with that!

As far as fasting your dogs....its best to fast dogs on the first day of the switch just so they get the chance to get all the other types of foods out of their systems. This way they can start from scratch and be cleaned out.

Fasting dogs whenever they have diarrhea or vomiting is always a good thing to do. If you feed a dog that has digestive upset more food...its only going to exacerbate the issues. If your dog is having diarrhea, skip one meal and reassess when the next meal time comes around. ***This rule is for any dog out there...even kibble fed dogs!

So...I would skip their evening meal tonight and start up again in the morning.

 

[magicre]

well, the amounts are RFD's idea....probably my biggest mistake the first time was not in WHAT i fed them, but in how much.....

so, i am going to fast them tonight...and then start them again tomorrow...and let's see how it goes..

thanks for the help....

 

[magicre]

ok, then....no food for doggies last night and they did their morning stool right on schedule, which is about five a.m. on weekends.....yeah, we get to sleep in.

malia's had some actual shape to hers with a much smaller amount of liquid...and bubba, my ferocious pug...had total solid stool...

why i never thought of fasting before or listened to anyone who suggested it before...well, what can i say..i'm russian and a redhead....

but i listened this time...and thank you..

i don't know if this means the end of diarrhea..i doubt it...but at least now we have a fighting chance and it gives me hope that this is possible..

i'll keep everyone updated....

my biggest issue at this point is finding the right approximate weight for bubba the pug...he gets approximately 3 oz per meal...so drumsticks are out....and he tries to swallow wings whole, which would be fine, although he is rather disgusting with it....my issue would be more with the lack of nutrition, and too much bone, rather than the fact that he likes to regurgitate

any suggestions?

 

[whiteleo]

If he likes to swallow the wings whole, just hold the wing while he chews, so he learns to chew first. I have bull terriers and I feed them wings and drums on a regular basis and they chew their food well before swallowing.

 

[DaneMama]

I'm glad that they are already starting to get back to normal. I would only feed them small amounts today and not their normal rations. Gradually get them up to their full days worth of meat. Just be patient with them because your patience will pay off and your dogs health will be the reward.

How do you feel about only feeding Bubba once a day? If you only feed him once a day, that meal can be bigger which is easier for you to deal with. I don't think it's a good idea to give him RMB's that he can swallow whole because that is a major choking hazard. If you feed him one bigger meal per day it will force him to chew on it a bit. We fees three of our four girls once a day and they do just fine with that. How does that sound?

 

[magicre]

i feel i should explain something about pugs....or, at the very least, THIS pug....natalie.....he is sooooo food driven, that he cried every time someone went near the kitchen last night.....i don't think i could deny this pathetic drama queen another day of half rations or no rations LOL....

and i know i should just harden my heart, but he's so pathetic.....so he got his full three ounces of chicken back...

for now, that's going to work out fine for one meal..and that's like half a back, cleaned off of excess skin, fat and organ

they need more bone than meat right now to get their digestive systems on track.....and their stools more solid, i am thinking....

but just to put it into perspective....and i'm kind of thinking out loud here.....there's really no meat on a wing...it's just bone and skin....right now, RFD has me taking the skin off..and i agree with that....since, even though they need it, right now, getting their stools regular is paramount as they make the transition....they did so badly before..and while it was my bad, i'm determined to do it right this time.

patience isn't the reality here. it's more the tiny amount of food this poor pug gets...the idea of one meal is a good one....and i was thinking we would go to that...but let me ask you?

wouldn't one meal be too much for a beginner?

3 oz spread out --- doesn't that give them a chance to digest and get ready for the next round of what they aren't used to getting?

isn't one meal better suited for down the line when they can have skin and fat and organ and i don't have to stand over a drummette and take the skin off?

one meal would be great, for then i can take a chicken thigh and throw it at him...hopefully not hit him and then he's a happy camper for a day....

but even turkey necks...when we begin to intro them in however many weeks it's going to take...i will have to cut them down...and i'm not even sure he can get his mouth around them, being a smash faced dog and all...

i think the extra calcium is a great idea for now....they should excrete what they don't utilise, right?

 

[DaneMama]

You have to do what is best and most comfortable to you AND your dogs. You know your dogs better than I can even begin to, so if you think that one meal isn't going to be a good thing initially...by all means go ahead and feed two meals per day. Eventually once you get through the next few months you might be able to switch to one meal per day.

Dogs *love* raw, fresh meats even more so than kibble...so they will become even more pathetic begging over it...I still see it after years of doing raw feeding LOL. You just have to do what you think is best, within reason of course. I just don't allow them to beg or whine at me while I'm in the kitchen, so they know that we have come to an agreement about food, which is *I* am the one who decides what, when and where....no matter how much they beg.

I think that taking the skin and extra fat off is a good idea right now...eventually you might want to start leaving just a little more each time to gradually get them used to having skin and fat in their diet. Dogs will utilize the fats for energy, kinda like we use carbs/sugars for our energy. But for now I think that you are 100% doing the right thing...playing it safe and cautious is always the best thing to do.

You might have to help him a bit in the beginning of feeding turkey necks. Whack em a bit with a hammer or something but DON'T chop them up or cut them up with a knife.

And yes, calcium absorption is regulated by the body, but can be influenced by many things. Normal healthy dogs don't have an issue with eliminating excess calcium that they do not utilize.

 

[magicre]

thanks for all the help.....

i just want to take this as slowly as possible....because it is highly possible there are dogs out there who are anxious dogs and get stress induced colitis, diet change colitis...and that's not a disease, it's just a condition that some dogs get.

unfortunately, my two rescues came from horrid conditions...and they both have stress induced colitis...

one of them gets the squirts from wind storms...

the other one gets the runs because the garbage truck freaked him out...

in ten years, we haven't gotten malia over her wind storm fear....but it gives her the runs each and every time...so, we go real slowly with her...because colitis can turn into something if ignored....and switching to raw gives her the runs...

bubba gets so excited about raw, i swear he thinks he's having S*X.....the first time he got a raw wing, he regurgitated it three times and peed himself....i kid you not.

so we go slowly with him, too....he is just now house training, our bubba is...we're very proud of him....he hasn't stress peed in well over a month now....other than his first chicken wing...

but both these dogs....well, i'm sure other dogs have had it worse....in my life, however, i've never seen a dog's anus bleached....

i'm reading every post and buying books now...and scouring the net....

i think for now, i'm going to hold things for bubba so he doesn't choke, thank you white leo...stay with two meals a day....bless both dogs because they are healthy...

and then let's see what happens day by day....

and, yeah, i will definitely re introduce skin because they need it....

 

[DaneMama]

Just take things slow...no need to rush. Nutrition is balanced over time with the dogs...that is one of the key fundamentals of raw feeding. Everything balances out over time. Just like with us...we don't eat a complete and balanced meal EVERY time we sit down and eat...same thing applies to our dogs.

Your dogs are very lucky to have you in control of their lives...you are a great dogmom for doing what you do with them! Keep up the good work!

 

[magicre]

ok, so we are moving right along...and thanks thanks thanks..so far, so good, other than one or the other dog getting honey up at 2 a.m. to go out.

there is no more diarrhea...if anything, the stools are firm....maybe too firm, but we aren't going to change anything yet.

we are still feeding chicken back and drumsticks, skin removed....after two weeks, maybe we'll add back some skin....their skin seems to be drying out.

i just don't want to upset the apple cart....

but, is that normal for a newly transitioned dog? a little flakiness?

 

[DaneMama]

Dry, flaky skin is normal if they are getting a low fat diet. As soon as you add in more fat (leaving the skin on) the dry skin should clear up. Just add in more fat gradually by cutting less and less skin off. Diarrhea is not something to lose sleep over or give up over, just a normal reaction the body has to change in diet. To avoid this make transitions slow and gradual. But if they do get looser stools, just go back to cutting out more fat and start again.

 

[whiteleo]

I really think that as they transition they also are going through a detox period too. You see different things in different dogs, just depends on the individual. Remember also that because of all the natural moisture in the raw diet, dogs don't drink nearly as much water as they once did which can also contribute to the dryness.

If the problem continues the further you are into raw feeding which it probably will take care of itself, you can always supplement with salmon oil. Hope this helps.

 

[magicre]

thanks both....

i think what both of you are saying is right on the money.....unless they get really uncomfortable, i think we'll just keep going slowly....

i'll leave a little more fat on next week...we're not even at the week mark yet...

but you're right about the water intake being down...bubba doesn't pee as much...