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I just don't think Kuso is the right dog for our family. He's snapped at Adam and I several times, like, aggressively, he's food aggressive (with both the other dogs AND myself), he has snapped at the other two dogs several times when they come to visit him in his crate, yet he feels entitled to come into their crates. Not only that, but my dogs just don't know how to teach him how to be a dog. They're way too submissive. I feel that trying to take dominance over him is making him even more stand-offish, too. I don't think a dominant dog would be suitable for my family, especially not given Amaya's history with other dominant dogs, because she's already shy when it comes to meeting other dogs, and it's hard to get her to play.

I feel so bad, but I think we're going to take him back tomorrow. There will be someone out there to take Kuso and give him a wonderful home where they can work with him on this stuff, but I my main concern is finding another submissive dog that my dogs won't constantly be trying to find a way to get away from it, which they do. I find myself constantly putting Kuso in his crate to give my dogs a break, because they just don't know what to do, because he plays aggressively, too. He bites too hard, barks and growls at them, humps Amaya's face, and just tries to be overall dominant. It scares them. DX

Anyways, what do you guys think?​
 

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I'm really sorry for saying this but I think your a hypocrite, you have come on this board and complained to no end about the crap people do on craigslist and such and how people just breed for money with no cares for the animal, I really think you should have thought this one out before even thinking about an Australian shepherd.
He'll probably go back to the humane society and be put to sleep because he is aggressive, or you could not have even got him, maybe like you shouldn't have because you were just in a hurry. I'm only thinking of the dog here, nothing personal, but when you work with a rescue group and have taken in 2 rescues yourself because they are siblings with your first dog, it gets to me. People always come up with excuses why they can't keep a dog, how about come up with some reasons to KEEP the dog.:smile:
 

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Oh, and to everyone else on the board who I know read this post before I did and didn't respond to it, I know exactly what you wanted to say, but didn't have the guts to say it.
 

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With working in rescue, you have to take into consideration the best home for the dog. And that means taking everyone into consideration, not just the dog. If the owner of the animal doesn't feel that its the right home for the dog, then it probably isn't. I will not try and pretend like I know her OR the dog and know exactly what her situation is like. It sounds like this puppy isn't the best match.

You don't always know what a dog will be like when you go to the shelter. True personalities can be hidden in situations like that, and it can be hard when those true personalities start to come out and they end up being an issue. It sounds to me like this puppy will take a fair bit of rehab to get him to understand boundaries and learn some manners. Considering his age, the rehab probably wont be as intense as if he were an adult with these behaviors ingrained into him. What you have to ask yourself is: Are you willing to work with him and do you have the time and energy to work with him?

Where did you adopt him from? If its a no kill shelter, I would talk to them about him, but if not...I would try and take him to one OR find a rescue that will take him and put him in a foster home that understands the care/training he needs.

I'm really sorry for saying this but I think your a hypocrite, you have come on this board and complained to no end about the crap people do on craigslist and such and how people just breed for money with no cares for the animal, I really think you should have thought this one out before even thinking about an Australian shepherd.
He'll probably go back to the humane society and be put to sleep because he is aggressive, or you could not have even got him, maybe like you shouldn't have because you were just in a hurry. I'm only thinking of the dog here, nothing personal, but when you work with a rescue group and have taken in 2 rescues yourself because they are siblings with your first dog, it gets to me. People always come up with excuses why they can't keep a dog, how about come up with some reasons to KEEP the dog.:smile:
Ouch, unnecessarily mean :frown:

I don't understand why you are chewing her out for trying to adopt a dog. Her previous posts on this board really have nothing to do with this current thread :confused:

Oh, and to everyone else on the board who I know read this post before I did and didn't respond to it, I know exactly what you wanted to say, but didn't have the guts to say it.
I didn't post up before because I honestly didn't see it until now.

I think you are being a bit harsh here and need to take a step back and think about what you are saying before you say it. There is no reason to be so harsh. At least she tried to rescue him...sheesh.
 

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I would have to agree. :smile: Nothing personal as I know you had good intentions. And I admire your trying to adopt him.

It sounds like you need to take control of the situation. It is aparent that he thinks he is in charge and can do whatever he wants. If your dogs are too submissive to put him in his place, then you need to. It sounds to me as if he came into the home and no one took control. He is in need of some guideance, and needs to be shown some direction. Just putting him in his kennel will not help the problem. No need to be harsh and mean with him. Be calm, but consistant. Give lots of praise when he does what is right. One thing to your advantage is that he is a puppy and very young.

I hope you decide to keep him and stick it out a bit longer. He deserves it. :smile:
 

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Honestly, I can understand both Whiteleo's and Danemama's sides here.

I would honestly give it your all before you give up. Every dog should go through some formal training, IMO. Whether it be done solely by the owner or with a trainer. Sounds like you could use some trainer help. Maybe sign him up for some puppy classes at a reputable school in the area. You'd be amazed at how getting to socialize with other puppy owners can make you feel better. :smile:
 

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He's snapped at Adam and I several times, like, aggressively,
I honestly have a really hard time wrapping my head around a 4 month old dog being truely aggressive. I will be honest, I don't know the whole story about where he came from, but to me, any dog with any issues this young can be very quickly worked with. It really really breaks my heart that someone would give up on a dog this young, and write it off because "someone else out there will deal with it." YOU got this dog. YOU need to seek the help to deal with it.
Chesney snapped at my husband around that age, and it was all a matter of her not knowing any better than to think she's the boss. We did some nothing in life is free training, and poof, all better. I really hope that you seek other options than dumping this puppy.

he's food aggressive (with both the other dogs AND myself),
Very very easy to work with. (why are you messing with him while he eats, anyway? sheesh) Definately NOT grounds to get rid of a puppy. I mean, come on, he's young, and his issues all seem pretty typical and easy enough to work with. I'm bothered that getting rid of him has been even thought of.

he has snapped at the other two dogs several times when they come to visit him in his crate, yet he feels entitled to come into their crates. Not only that, but my dogs just don't know how to teach him how to be a dog. They're way too submissive.
Dogs do not have the logical thinking power to fathom the "golden rule." Your dogs shouldn't so much as put their nose in his crate. it's his. He should not be putting his nose in your other dog's crates. It's theirs. This sounds like a situation in which you as the pack leader need to step in and show him where he can and can not be. It is not your rasident's dogs responsibility to train this puppy. They did not rush out and get him. They did not bring him into your home. They did not ask for a new sibling. YOU did, and you need to jump on the training.

I feel that trying to take dominance over him is making him even more stand-offish, too. I don't think a dominant dog would be suitable for my family, especially not given Amaya's history with other dominant dogs, because she's already shy when it comes to meeting other dogs, and it's hard to get her to play.
It sounds to me like he just needs boundaries, and he needs you to show them to him in an entirely non threatening way. I really think that members of this forum can really help you work through his issues and make him a wonderful dog. You just have to remember to not ask him to go against natural instincts, but rather to make him want to listen to you. "leave it" and "drop it" are probably the best commands to teach a dog that has yet to realize he's not the boss. In fact, those two commands are great for relationship building when taught properly as well, because you're showing them that if they listen to YOU, there's something in it for THEM, and it bypasses any aggression associated with resource guarding (food aggression)

I feel so bad, but I think we're going to take him back tomorrow. There will be someone out there to take Kuso and give him a wonderful home where they can work with him on this stuff, but I my main concern is finding another submissive dog that my dogs won't constantly be trying to find a way to get away from it, which they do.
Wait. YOUR MAIN CONCERN is not the welfare of this dog that YOU brought into your home, but rather dumping him and finding a different dog?
No no no no no. Please please don't do that. There is no perfect dog out there, there are many dogs and puppies that really just need boundaries and guidence, and if you can't work with this one how will you work with the next?
This is YOUR dog. YOUR decision. YOUR responsibility. Please, please think about that before you dump him for "someone out there" to deal with.

I find myself constantly putting Kuso in his crate to give my dogs a break, because they just don't know what to do, because he plays aggressively, too. He bites too hard, barks and growls at them, humps Amaya's face, and just tries to be overall dominant. It scares them. DX
Why not find yourself constantly correcting him instead, and praising him for proper behavior? By throwing him in his crate every time he annoys your other dogs, you're confusing him (growling, biting, and barking is not wrong for a dog. at all.) by punnishing him for something that comes so natural and is entirely normal in play (remember playing is one of two things: play fighting, or play hunting, so unless true blood is being drawn, don't step in) AND you're telling your other dogs that it's OK to be intolerent of things they don't like, AND if they are scared, by putting him away you're saying "Yes, he's scary, be afraid" and only reinforcing everything that is going on.

Anyways, what do you guys think?
I'm just reminding you that you asked what we thought. I really think that he just needs you to show him what's okay and what's not in a non threatening manner.

I must agree with Whiteleo, though... with as much as you come on here griping about what everyone on CL does and how they breed and dump their animals, it comes as a bit of a shock that you yourself are jumping into the dumping a puppy for no good reason category. But hey, at least you can spell, right? Because those people who can't are terrible.
 

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Oh and one other thing that I forgot to mention.....

A tired dog is a happy dog. If he's not getting enough exercise then he's going to be 5 times worse. Also, if he's not eating, sleeping, peeing, or pooping then he should be constantly entertained with something. If not, then he'll find a way to entertain himself, and it definitely won't be something you'll like. If he's busy doing something else then he won't have an interest to bother the others.
 

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A couple of things here, which of course I trust Natalie knows are not personal.:wink:

You don't always know what a dog will be like when you go to the shelter. True personalities can be hidden in situations like that, and it can be hard when those true personalities start to come out and they end up being an issue.
I can testify to this, as the first cat we got, as some of you might remember, Tilly, ended up being one of these cases... and we consulted a couple members of this forum in private, as well as an animal behaviorist, as well as our vet before making any decisions on her. She ended up being put to sleep, as she had drawn blood unprovoked on every member of this household, as well as an awful bite on by husband's shoulder (she attacked from behind) that was also unprovoked. Vet said she more than likely has a tumor pressing on her brain causing the unpredictable behavior. My point is, with shelter animals (and even some from breeders) you simply don't know what you're getting into, and they can change upon getting them home. In this respect, I agree with natalie, that perhaps this puppy has some issues that the OP was unaware of upon bringing the puppy home.

It sounds to me like this puppy will take a fair bit of rehab to get him to understand boundaries and learn some manners.
I'm personally going to say it sounds like typical untrained puppy behavior, to me. Just my opinion, but the snapping, the resource guarding, that's pretty typical of puppies. Not saying every puppy does it, but it's a part of the learning process that obviously a shelter puppy this young has not had yet.

Considering his age, the rehab probably wont be as intense as if he were an adult with these behaviors ingrained into him. What you have to ask yourself is: Are you willing to work with him and do you have the time and energy to work with him?
My personal opinion here, which might not be the popular opinion, is that the moment you sign those adoption papers, you are taking on the responsibility and OBLIGATION to put forth time and energy to work with that animal, not pass them on because "oops, he's not perfect. NEXT!" I would say this is especially the case with a rescue animal.


ETA: I'd like to add that none of this is personal to natalie or to the OP, that I am just forming an opinion based on the limited amount of information given to the particular situation. Surrendering an animal is a sensitive topic for any member of this forum, as none of us would be here if we did not have a deep love of our pets.
 

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I never said that I didn't agree with whiteleo. She just came at in the completely WRONG way. Unnecessarily mean in my opinion. She could have gotten her point across a bit more friendly...people tend to shut down and not listen when they are being chewed out.

I personally would keep up with the work in training the puppy and teaching him some manners. It will take some rehab, but to me that isn't too much work and the rewards will be well worth it.

BUT a lot of people don't have the time for a special needs puppy that does require a bit of work, and that is where I am coming from on the other side of this issue. Maybe this home isn't the best one for a puppy like this one??? It sounds to me like she had no idea that this puppy was going to be such a terror at the time of signing the papers.

I think we all need to be a POSITIVE force here and help her...not yell at her.

I don't take much on this forum personally...which is probably why I'm still here :wink: :biggrin:
 

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I think we all need to be a POSITIVE force here and help her...not yell at her.
I agree, but I also think someone asking for comments on a controversial topic, should be ready for whatever they hear. I think the OP has stuck it out on this forum and can handle it, whereas many might not be able to. I could be wrong here, but I'm giving the OP that credit. :biggrin: I also apologize if my posts came across as yelling or attacking. My intent was to simply give my comments and opinion in an honest way.

I don't take much on this forum personally...which is probably why I'm still here:biggrin:
I knew you wouldn't. :biggrin: But I did feel the need to specify for anyone else who might be reading. :wink:


Again, this is a sensitive topic in which I am sure that we all have very passionate opinions on, and discussing it does have great potential of pissing a few people off, or even hurting feelings. While I am sure that's no ones goal, I will take it upon myself to recommend not jumping in if you're easily offended, but also keeping other's opinions RESPECTIVELY in mind should you decide to post on a topic as touchy as this.
 

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I agree, but I also think someone asking for comments on a controversial topic, should be ready for whatever they hear. I think the OP has stuck it out on this forum and can handle it, whereas many might not be able to. I could be wrong here, but I'm giving the OP that credit. :biggrin: I also apologize if my posts came across as yelling or attacking. My intent was to simply give my comments and opinion in an honest way.

Again, this is a sensitive topic in which I am sure that we all have very passionate opinions on, and discussing it does have great potential of pissing a few people off, or even hurting feelings. While I am sure that's no ones goal, I will take it upon myself to recommend not jumping in if you're easily offended, but also keeping other's opinions RESPECTIVELY in mind should you decide to post on a topic as touchy as this.
It is a very controversial subject to touch on, but that doesn't mean we should be mean to anyone about it. I don't think you were mean or came across as attacking in your posts because you actually had a thought out response. Its just that leo typed up just an attack and no helpful response that really got me upset. If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say it at all.

If it were me I would give this puppy a fighting chance at working out, considering he is young and impressionable. With the Dane rescue we tell families to stick it out for at least a month or two to get everyone adjusted and in a comfortable place within the home. Since its only been a few days, that is hardly enough time to get to know this dog well or even time to work with him really.
 

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Natalie, I wasn't yelling at xxshaexx I'm just very passionate about dogs being adopted or bought and then given up for god knows what reasons people come up with.
I'd just got home from work and this was the first post I came to, I even reread it before I hit submit. I'm not sorry for speaking on a subject we all hold close to our hearts, she asked what we thought and I told her what I thought, I'm sure she knew that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wasn't trying to hurt anyones feelings!
 

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. If you haven't got anything nice to say, don't say it at all.
In 99.9% of cases, I would agree with this entirely.

However, when someone flat out asks for opinions and comments on a subject thy surely know is controversial, I think it's fair for anyone to respond, not just those with positive remarks.


Anyway, sorry to have somewhat hijacked the thread... back to the issue at hand!:biggrin:
 

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Natalie, I wasn't yelling at xxshaexx I'm just very passionate about dogs being adopted or bought and then given up for god knows what reasons people come up with.
I'd just got home from work and this was the first post I came to, I even reread it before I hit submit. I'm not sorry for speaking on a subject we all hold close to our hearts, she asked what we thought and I told her what I thought, I'm sure she knew that it was going to be a controversial thread. I wasn't trying to hurt anyones feelings!
Don't feel bad about being passionate about this subject, we all are. I feel the same way about it considering I hear every excuse in the book when people surrender their dogs to rescue. It makes me sad when people give up on their dogs. We just need to help her and give her support right now, rather than getting on her back.

I was just completely taken aback by your response to her because usually you are very helpful and friendly. Thats all.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I'm not a fan of dumping dogs either. I never have been, and I never will be. This is a hard decision for me, and I'm not even 100% sure about anything yet. But it's hard to see my OWN dogs go through what they are going through. I wanted another dog as POSITIVE experience for Amaya, not JUST for myself. There are other reasons I wanted another dog as well, and the main one being that now that I have purchased two dogs from a breeder, I wanted to adopt one as well, save a life.

My biggest issue is that Amaya is already REALLY sensitive to other dogs. She's been attacked twice at the dog park, and since then she has been EXTREMELY skittish around other dogs. I went to Petco a few weeks ago and saw another dog there, and if I'd have known I'd be adopting a dog soon, I'd have adopted her, but she was PERFECT for Amaya, because she was submissive as well, and soon Amaya began to play, and it was wonderful. I wanted THAT for her, I wanted her to have another friend to PLAY with and realize that it's a wonderful thing to play with other dogs. It's been the exact opposite. I feel as though every correction I make with Kuso is a step backwards for her, because she's been closing herself off more and more.

That is the biggest underlying problem in this situation, and if it wasn't for that, I'd have NO problem sitting here day after day, correcting the pup myself, teaching him that he's the lowest member of the pack right now, that he needs to respect those above him, but it's teaching Amaya nothing about socialization, socialization that I don't feel she gets when I take her out to Petco or other places. There have been plenty of good experiences out there for her, but never long enough to make any kind of dent. THIS experience is CERTAINLY making a dent with her, and not a positive one.

I really do like Kuso. He's got a great personality (minus the dominant traits), and the most adorable face. I just don't want to ruin my dogs just to save him. When we went to adopt him, none of these issues were present with my dogs. My dogs seemed to get along with him, and he did well with them. The only problem we had was with his aggression towards people, aggression when I tried to correct him. Not only that, but the vets didn't exactly help when they told us that he just wanted attention and lied up their ASSES about how he was. Literally...And when I said in a previous post about him not being potty trained, I really meant that he wasn't, not that it was just a case of him being in a new environment. He went to the bathroom in the vet office, and the techs just gave excuses for him. That's all they did, actually, was give excuses for him, so I'm pretty damned sure they never corrected him on anything. HELL, when he was EXTREMELY nippy when they first brought him out, they made excuses. I was, like, "seriously?"

Now, I'm going to sit on this for a few days, and I'm certainly going to take all of your suggestions into consideration. HOWEVER, just know that when I posted for your guys opinions, I wasn't asking to be attacked. I was rather asking for your guys opinions on what I SHOULD do. Do you guys seriously think that I don't already feel bad enough without people sitting here throwing it in my face about what a bad person I am? I already know I'm a hypocrite. I already know that if I take him back I will have done a bad thing in even adopting him. I already know that I've made mistakes.

And thank you, Danemama, for taking these things into account and sticking up for me in some respect.​
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Oh, and by the way, he came from a no-kill shelter, and I would NEVER think about taking him back if he didn't. I'd find a home for him myself if it really came down to that.​
 
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This is a hard decision for me, and I'm not even 100% sure about anything yet.
Just give him a little more time, he's still very new to your house, and that throws off the balance of things a bit. I honestly am suprised Chesney ever found her place in our pack, she had a really really tough time, and still has a hard time communicating with the other dogs. (the woman we got her from had bought her at a pet shop, so I am assuming she did not spend 8 weeks with littermates) but she's a work in progress. Your pup is about the same age, which is why I keep mentioning our Chesney, as it sounds like he's having pretty much exactly the problems we have with her.

correcting the pup myself, teaching him that he's the lowest member of the pack right now, that he needs to respect those above him,
Dogs will form their own pack order of command, and it's not always the youngest come last. Just keep that in mind. If one has a naturally more confident and dominent personality, and the other is a submissive pushover (not used with negative connotation, of course) then it doesn't matter who came first, the dominent one will find his place in the pack, and that's not going to be on the bottom. For example, my dogs entered my house in the following order: champ, grissom, annie, chesney. the pecking order they have fit into is champ, annie, chesney, grissom. Let them work out who sits where on their own.
The only one who has to be "above" him is you. Let the dogs decide on their own.

There have been plenty of good experiences out there for her, but never long enough to make any kind of dent. THIS experience is CERTAINLY making a dent with her, and not a positive one.
Just give it some time. He's very new to your family. Dogs have a way of working out their issues when they realize that they're all there to stay. It takes my Champ about two weeks to even begin to accept a new member of the family. (and when he finally does, he first has to throw them to the ground, and hold them there "growling" for about 5 seconds, before he lets them go... and then they're best friends. Is it fun to watch? no. Is he trying to hurt them? no. DO I interfere? Absolutely not. It's happened with all three of the other dogs. It's his way of saying "alright, looks like you're sticking around just like the rest of us, but let's get one thing straight around here- i'm the boss"

Now, I'm going to sit on this for a few days, and I'm certainly going to take all of your suggestions into consideration. HOWEVER, just know that when I posted for your guys opinions, I wasn't asking to be attacked.
I apologize if I came across as attacking. :redface:

Do you guys seriously think that I don't already feel bad enough without people sitting here throwing it in my face about what a bad person I am? I already know I'm a hypocrite.
Please don't think that about yourself. You are not a terrible person, at least as far as I can tell. No one wants to make you feel that way, it's just a very very passionate topic for most people, and it's very easy to give a passionate response. Try to look at it as an outsider. We only have what you tell us, and you have been rather quick to jump on others you see on CL, and here's such a limited amount of information given here.... but I am certain that no one's intent was to make you feel that way. I am sorry if I was part of that.

I already know that if I take him back I will have done a bad thing in even adopting him. I already know that I've made mistakes.
You tried to SAVE him, to give him a better life, to make him HAPPY. No matter what the outcome, you did not do a bad thing by rescuing. He's just more of a handful than you thought, and needs a bit of training. Every dog comes with suprises. You have NOT done him any injustice by trying to save him. Now he just needs you to work with him so everyone can coexist peacefully.

I am confident that we can help you mold him into a wonderful companion. I would love to see a detailed, no emotion account of some of the specific incidents that you've had with him so that we can offer more informed, solid tips and advice so you can help work with him through his problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I would love to see a detailed, no emotion account of some of the specific incidents that you've had with him so that we can offer more informed, solid tips and advice so you can help work with him through his problems.
When we were signing the adoption paperwork, one of the techs came out to weigh some kittens and he got really excited. Well, when she started to walk away, he got really mad that she didn't let him see them, and started to yap really loudly, so I went to shush him, and he started to snarl and bite me.

Then there was one time he bit me, and I went to grab his nose to let him know not to bite me, and he pulled back and bit me harder while snarling.

With my dogs, he bites way too hard, and he'll hold on, and my dogs will just run around like dumb butts not knowing that this is what they're supposed to correct. If they don't pay enough attention to them, he will literally start to snarl and snap at their noses. I've actually heard Ryou start whining and yelping because of this, and he still doesn't know to correct him on this.

And I know that dogs will establish their own pecking order, but he goes about it way overboard. They'll be submissive to his attempts to dominate them, and he'll take it further because he knows he can. Like when he starts to bark at them and they differ, he literally continues to go after them, snapping and snarling, and I don't mean, like, a little puppy growl.



So, I'm having my friend come over right now, the one with the two pit bulls that I'm babysitting for her, and she's going to work with Kuso with her one dog that doesn't have aggression problems, because he's really good with puppies and knows how to correct. I'd ask for Rachel to do the same, but she's always working. haha. I'm hoping that after my other friend has worked with them a bit, I can also do the same, and using Havoc, teach Kuso more on how to be a dog, teach him more about bite inhibition, because when I go to correct him on his people issues, he'll do really well, but when I go to correct him on his dog issues, he'll just go right back to doing the same things.​
 
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