Running out of ideas for Titus.

The problem with him is that he doesn't like to run, and when he does run, its for about 2-3 minutes and then he just stands around and stares down the cars that come to a stop at the stop sign. I have teken him for walks and tried to run with him, but he gets so focused on the cows around us that he forgets that I am attached to him and tries to chase the cows. He can't be off leash at any time, so when we are not in the yard he is on a leash beside me, but when we are he is on a tie down with 70ft of lead. He won't play with toys for mosr then a couple of minutes and he can't play with Owen. My yard isn't fenced cause I can't afford the fencing that it would take to do that. (Its a big yard!)
I have to rotate the boys in and out of their crates so they are not both out at the same time because of the fights that they have started with each other. (That started around Christmas.) I have tried to get them back to 'friends' but that never lasts long before one starts giving the 'you pissed me off' look again. I have been lucky so far with them not actually killing each other. When 'the look' starts, I will put them BOTH in there crates (in different rooms) and they have to stay apart from then on... Until I feel up to trying one in one room and the other in an ajoining room to see how it goes. (I haven't tried this in a while.) Anyway, on an average work day, they each will get anywhere from 1-3 hours of 'out of the crate' time a day. Depending on how exhausted work makes me that day. On the weekends though, they get to go out for about the same amount of time, but multiple times durring the day. Owen will usually play fetch with his ball outside for 30-45 minutes and then he is ready to go in, get water and rest for a while... then he wants to go back out!!
Titus usually stays outside longer cause he likes to be out doors. I have thought about taking him hiking or something, but then there is the probelm that we might meet people or 'off-leash' dogs and I don't know how he will react due to his agression... and I don't want us to get in trouble if he tries to after someone or their dog. I usually sit on the porch and wait till he is done doing his business and then I will chase him in the yard or run so he will chase me, but that fizzels out within a couple of minutes and he just wants to sit and watch things, or try to chase the cows. I will try to play ball with him, but he runs for the ball, picks it up and decides that the grass is more interesting. SO I tried coaxing him back with treats and he will come, but he won't bring the ball, or he will bring the ball and then won't chase again. The most activity I can get out of him is when he wants to chase the cows... and they aren't my cows or I would see how he would do with them. If he wouldn't bite them, but just give chase and they were my cows, I wouldn't mind.

Tonn- I will look thru and see if I can find that thread. Thanks, I am also looking into a Behaviorist, but I just barely make ends meet for the 4 of us as it is now, so we will see how it goes.

gOOdgirl, do you have any suggestions for a tool or something else that would provoke a play/prey drive, or anything that will get him moving?? I have been keeping my eyes open for a treadmill.. I have always wanted one for them, but they have all been pretty expensive or broken. :/

Thanks guys!

I think one of the main issues (from what it sounds like) is that they are crated at least 20 hours a day? That's an incredibly long time.
I think until that is fixed, there will always be problems because of all their pent up energy. Also, being a crate for so long is just plain boring.
Can you put up a gate in the house so that they can both be out while you are home? What do they have in their crates while you are gone, any toys?
You may have to teach a "watch me" command first and try running again- keep his attention on you. From what I've read English bullies are very athletic dogs so he CAN run he's just distracted and stubborn.
It sounds like you live alone? If so, are there any friends you can get to walk with you and walk one of the boys so you can exercise them at the same time. Walking together is generally good for dog-dog relationships.
One of my boxers is dog aggressive so I take them to an empty tennis court to run around whenever i can. If they still won't run take some cut up hot dog and throw is as far as you can so they run after that.
You could try something called a "teaser pole" too to bring out the play drive. I think you can google that to find out how to make one.
Mainly, they just need more exercise. Being crated all day is literally going to drive them crazy. I know I'd be an irritable mess if the only time I got out of my bedroom I had to share attention with another person or was overstimulated by all the things outside.

g00dgirl said:

I think one of the main issues (from what it sounds like) is that they are crated at least 20 hours a day? That's an incredibly long time.
I think until that is fixed, there will always be problems because of all their pent up energy. Also, being a crate for so long is just plain boring.
Can you put up a gate in the house so that they can both be out while you are home? What do they have in their crates while you are gone, any toys?
You may have to teach a "watch me" command first and try running again- keep his attention on you.

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I know that they need to be out more, and I have tried to keep them both out when I am home with a gate up, but that was how the last fight started. Titus wanted on the side of the house that I was on and that wasn't the side that he was supposed to be on. (I just had to pee for heavens sakes! )

Titus gets Kong toys with frozen stuff to get out, or RMBs, or just chewey rubber toys... or all of the above. Sometimes he even uses his food bowl for a chew toy if I forget to take it out before leaving for the day. :-D

From what I've read English bullies are very athletic dogs so he CAN run he's just distracted and stubborn.
It sounds like you live alone? If so, are there any friends you can get to walk with you and walk one of the boys so you can exercise them at the same time. Walking together is generally good for dog-dog relationships.

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Haha!! Sorry for the confusion, Owen is the EBT, Titus is the NeoMastiff mix. Owen is great with the schedule. As long as he gets out for a while to play ball, he is fine. Titus is the one that I have the most problems with. Titus doesn't want to play, he would love to just be out of his crate and lay around on the couch. I don't mind that and probably wouldn't mind leaving him out all day except for the part where he chews everything and breaks stuff. I sometimes think that I have too many dogs and can't keep up with them, but then I see another puppy and just start thinking about getting another EBT!! It never goes any further then just thinking about it though. :biggrin:

g00dgirl said:

One of my boxers is dog aggressive so I take them to an empty tennis court to run around whenever i can. If they still won't run take some cut up hot dog and throw is as far as you can so they run after that.
You could try something called a "teaser pole" too to bring out the play drive. I think you can google that to find out how to make one.
Mainly, they just need more exercise. Being crated all day is literally going to drive them crazy. I know I'd be an irritable mess if the only time I got out of my bedroom I had to share attention with another person or was overstimulated by all the things outside.

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As much as I would love to keep them out longer and do more with them, living by my self does creat a LOT of problems... especially living out in the middle of nothing but cows. Titus is a very visual kind of dog... If he doesn't see it in front of his face, it doesn't exist... and sometimes not even then! :redface: I will try the teaser pole again. (tried it when he was younger and he though I was very odd. Didn't care about it.) If he takes to it, I will try to get pictures and videos to show.

Please don't think that I am not hearing you. I am writing things down to work on. I am also in no way saying that this is all the dogs fault, because I know that I have my part in it as well. I do try the best I can, but I do work full time and everything was going fine till they started the fighting thing. Now they have messed up my days!!! :tongue: I love them both soo much, but they do wear me out some days. I have been told by a few people that Titus should just be euthanized because he isn't worth the time, but I know him better then that.

Thanks again for more ideas!

I like mall's suggestion. If he had the muzzle neither of you would have the excuse not to exercise him. I say this, because when I first got Khan, and we were driving around getting use to the car new people, etc. one of the places I took him was Zeus' (RIP) Rehab clinic. We were in the lobby talking with the Dr. who also had a mastiff, and I was telling her how Lazy he was! I mean for a puppy he was more than happy to play for 5 min. then he would just sleep! Puppies are usually into everything! She told me, that keeping a mastiff active would be one of the biggest challenges I would have, and that I better start while he's young. She explained that because they are so big and massive, they are not "lazy" they are efficient! LOL they don't want to move that much mass unless necessary, so laying on the couch becomes a way better option for them. Of course laying on the couch only increases their mass. Hence you have the vicious circle! This could be the circle that Titus is in. If he quits after a few min. nobody "pushes" him to continue, so back to the couch he can go. He ultimately gets what he wants, which is being a couch potato.
Maybe all he needs is some "tough love" and with the muzzle it could get him started.

When he goes to the vet he will be getting blood work done... and then anxiety meds.
His eating is fine. He is always ready to eat, he just doesn't care about treats. I have gotten him dehydrated meat, carrots, raw meat (yes, thats gross, but you gotta do what you gotta do!), kibble. All of these things he likes, but when it comes to working for them, he just doesn't care.
I think you might be right with the 'efficient' thing Khan. He is only 70lbs and could be larger as he currently looks like a walking skelaton. (In the summer he loses weight just from breathing, but its hard to keep weight on him.) I have upped his food to ~4lbs a day for the summer again to see if he will gain weight, especially now that he is neutered and doesn't have a motabolism running at 500mph.

We went for a walk last night because within 3 minutes of getting out of his crate (before going outside) he had managed to clear off my counters and tables and toss some glass dishes across the kitchen.... OMG I was freaking out that he had gotten hurt more then anything else!! We walked for about 45 minutes (I have asthma, so we went as far as I could go before having to go home). On the way away from the house he was 'ok', but was constantly pulling on me. On the way back was a little better..... Until the dang cows came to the fence and started following us down the fence line. Titus FREAKED out!!!!! He was barking like a mad dog and wanted nothing more then to catch his own dinner!! (I wouldn't have minded him doing that, but they weren't my cows) It took all I had to hold him back and try to re-gain his attention with treats and a lot of talking quietly to get him to look at me again. When he did, the dang cows took off running away from us and he went at it again!!! I swear... cows are useless! I don't care what Chickfila says.... EAT COWS!!!! :tongue: I was already worn out from the day of work, then I had to take him out, then the cows were hell-bent on getting me killed and then there were a ton of people that wanted to slow down and look out their window or talk to him while we were walking. I don't know what made me sleep more, the exercise, or the work-out!! :biggrin:
We will be trying to walk without killing me again tonight... Lets hope I make it through the night and re-post tomorrow!!

I don't have TV or internet... I only have a tv to watch DVD's on. (I know, I know, I have been told that I am not normal for that! But I don't have the time or money to watch tv when I am home.) I do wish I had the internet though.
Anyway, I will watch the episode that g00dgirl put up.

As a side note, this weekend I gave him the choice of playing ball (work) or shredding a stuffed toy (lazy way out) and he chose to play ball this weekend. He did get board after a couple of chases, but he still came back and tried again. He would chase the ball and bring it back.. then he would start on the stuffed toy for a few minutes and then go get his ball and bring it back to me. I rewarded the ball playing with treats in hopes that he would become more interested in getting rewarded for working. (I hope that was the right thing to do! ;})
As long as it isn't raining, I think I will take him for a walk 2-3 times a week (long walks, not 5 minutes and then back to the crate -type thing!) and then work with him on the ball playing and try the 'flirt pole' and see if there is anything else that he will take to.

Thanks for all of the help guys!! I will keep you updated and keep checking back to see if anyone else has other ideas.

I know exactly how you feel. I have a 2yr old gsd who has similar problems. He comes from very friendly parents who dont have any aggression or guarding issues but my Frodo is very reactive/aggressive when he see's another animal. I have to walk him late at night so we dont encounter anyone. He wont accept treats during training and when he gets going there is no way to calm him down. He is great at home. You should have his thyroid checked like earlier mentioned, someone mentioned that to me before. He has free run of the house all day, gets walked and gets a lot of play/run time in the house and in the yard, so exercise is not his problem. It is nice to hear that someone else is having these problems cause when I walk him I feel like I'm the only one. Sounds like having Titus put down is not an option, it wouldn't be for me either, Frodo is part of the family, I will try to work on these problems forever if I need to. I wish you all the luck there is in getting him better, just dont stop loving your dogs.

So, after a good day at work yesterday, I thought it would be nice to take Titus out for a walk again. So I played with Owen and then took Titus out front and played ball with him for a little bit. Then we went for a walk. He started out great... then came the cows. We ended up having to stop in front of them because there were a few cars coming and I am working on him sitting on the grass beside the road when a car comes so we don't get hit. I took that as a perfect opertunity to do some training. When we had gotten close to the cows (other side of the road) He started going nuts. When we had to wait for the cars, he sat, but paid more attention to the cows then even the treat in front of his nose. He took a treat when he didn't bark or try to charge the cows. But after that, he just wanted to charge. After the cars were done passing and staring at us like WE were weird, we continued the walk. He did "ok", but still didn't even notice the treat in front of his nose to try to deter him.
We got past the cows and continued and he did great again. Sat when there were cars and walked close to me the whole time. A couple of times he trotted in front of me and turned around and came back to me expecting a treat!
After ~1.5 miles down the road I decided that we should start back (wishing I had the car so that I did have to walk). We walked back just fine.. until we got to the cows again... THIS time there was a donkey that came running up to the fence hee-hawing at us!! I thought Titus was going to wet himself the first time he heard that. Well, the cows and donkey followed us to the end of the pasture, making it harder for me to walk home. We finally made it past and he turned back into a good dog!!

Have I mentioned that I realllllly don't like those cows????? Titus can have that dang donkey too!


Anyway, everything went ok but now I hurt and Titus has a small scratch on his paw pad from all of the pulling he did to get to those cows. (he will live, though he doesn't believe me) We will have to wait a few days till his paw heals up and then do it again!

g00dgirl said:

What kind of collar are you using?
I would highly recommend a gentle leader head collar. You need an advantage like that for a dog that you are physically unable to restrain. I don't think anyone could hold back a mastiff that REALLY wanted something.
Did you watch that video yet? Use a head collar with one leash and you can keep a a regular flat collar on him with a second leash just for reassurance.
What are you using for treats? cut up hot dogs might do the trick.
As for desensitizing him to the cows, I would start the walk and as soon as he shows an interest in them, turn around and walk towards home. Do this for several feet and then turn around again towards the cows. Repeat every time he gets too engaged in them. Keep going until you can walk past them on teh other side of the street. It may take days or weeks. You might look strange to passersby but I'm sure it's no fun to get your arm torn off either.

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Last night I was using dehydrated beef and kibble as treats because thats what I had in the house.
As for the collar, he doesn't like anything on his nose because of when he was neutered we had to put a muzzel on him. I have a gentle leader that I have been working on him with. We are working on him keeping it on while we are in the house and when we go for a walk, I put it on him for the feel of it, but I haven't hooked anything to it yet. I don't want to push it too far.
I can hold him back with the regular martingale collar that I have for him, but its just the part where he will pull constantly (not in a jerking manner) and then when we are past, he will walk back and look at me for a treat. I am trying the 'ignore and keep moving' because I don't think I could do anything else with him. Walking in the other direction isn't doing much for him except for making more upset so far. I will try putting a leash on each next time we go out and see how that works for him.
I don't care what other people think when they see me, because I know the ones that know what I am doing just smile and the others just watch and keep going. Its fine, I am more interested in my dog at that time anyway. :biggrin:
Thanks for the suggestions. I will try them out and get back to you guys.
Right now I am happy for the little progress that we have made.

Update!!

So, I took Titus in to the vet back in July and my vet put him on Prozac. He told me that I would most likely not see a difference for at least 30 days and that I should just take things slow for that long. (Oh, and Titus acted like an @$$ the whole time we were in the office)
Well, it is going on 3 months and Titus went in for a check up on his progress and he only got nervious and barked a few times... But still didn't want the vet to be near him. He also still barks at bicyclers that ride past the house, but we had a great oppertunity to turn Labor Day into 'Training Day'. :biggrin: Every time that the people would ride by and he started barking at them, I diverted his attention to playing ball.. It worked!! He still barks at them when they go by, but he got to where he would bark a time or two and then bring me the ball!! It was more funny then when I would throw the ball and he would chase it, roll on it and then bring it back!
I still can't walk him anywhere near cows, so our walks take us down the road that has a ton of horses instead... Figure that one out, he is ok with horses, but NOT with cows!?!
Anyway, he is doing much better. I am hopeful that the road to recovery will be long, but well rewarded in the end.