[JayJayisme]

Okay, so as I've said in previous posts, raw is not a full-time option for me, I won't get into the "whys" and "what fors". Suffice it to say that there are multiple reasons that I cannot circumvent right now.

Another challenge with raw I've been up against is that one of my puppies, the small (18 lb) male Cocker Spaniel/Daschund mix doesn't like raw meat. My 40 lb. Shepard mix female loves it but not the little guy.

So for awhile now, while I've been simultaneously seeking out a high quality kibble that they both like and tolerate well, I've been trying to get the little guy acclimated to raw food.

The kibble du jour is Artemis Fresh Mix, which you can read bout in this thread...

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/dry-canned-dog-food/1478-artemis-fresh-mix.html

Now while I may not know a lot about dog physiology and nutrition, I do know quite a bit about dog behavior and how to condition it. So for a few weeks now, I've been cooking their supplemental dietary meat a little less over time until I got to the point where it was basically seared on the outside and raw in the middle. I cook it by either pan frying or boiling with no salt or seasoning.

I started with beef because they both really like it a lot. I can sometimes find roasts and such for less than $2.00 per pound but my favorite thing to give them are beef back bones (ribs) with a nice piece of meat attached. If I wait for the right time, I can usually find these for 90 cents to $1.29 or so per pound. It keeps them busy for hours...a huge bonus for me since I run a home-based business and really need some quiet time now and then.

I don't do the meat thing every day but today was the first time I finally got both of them to take and eat a raw beef rib. The female snatched it up and went to town. The little guy, who usually wants his meat cooked, poked it with his nose for awhile, then licked it for awhile, then watched the female for awhile, and FINALLY, he dove in and ate it. Yay!

So, this was a big obstacle that we've finally overcome. I'll do this every few days for awhile until it is "normal" to them then I'll try something else, like chicken. I found some dark quarters (legs with thighs) today for 67 cents per pound so getting them to eat these is the next goal.

Like I said, raw full time is not an option right now but my goal is to come up with a compromise diet that includes some kibble and some raw meat so they get some of both on a somewhat regular basis. Today was a breakthrough because until now, the male has resisted. Now the door is open and I hope to take advantage of it. They loved their meaty "treat" today and have been happy pups ever since. I hope I can keep it going.

Cheers!

Jay

 

[RawFedDogs]

Hehe, Yes, I'm proud of you, Jay. You are making good progress. Yay you. :smile:

 

[claybuster]

Hehe, Yes, I'm proud of you, Jay. You are making good progress. Yay you. :smile:

Artemis Fresh Mix: Chicken, Chicken meal, Turkey, Cracked Pearled Barley, Whole Grain Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Millet, Peas, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Potatoes, Duck, Salmon, Egg Product, Flaxseed, Natural Chicken Flavor, Salmon Oil (a source of DHA), Salmon Meal, Choline Chloride, Dried Chicory Root, Kelp, Carrots, Apples, Tomatoes, Blueberries, Spinach, Dried Skim Milk, Cranberry Powder, Rosemary Extract, Parsley Flake, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Barley Grass Extract, L-Carnitine, Enterococcus Faecieum, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Saccharomyces Cerevesiae Fermentation Solubles, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Vitamin E Supplement, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide, Thiamine Mononitrate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganous Oxide, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Biotin, Calcium Pantothenate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (vitamin B6), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D Supplement , Folic acid.

Where RFD and I differ in opinion would be all the stuff that I underlined is better than just white rice. Because, when not feeding Raw 10 plants must be better than 1.

 

[JayJayisme]

Okay, I have to admit that I have no idea what the hell Claybuster is referring to.

The bottom line is that this is a start and this is going to be a process for my and my dogs, especially the little male. My goal is to feed them some kibble and some raw meat and for them to be used to both and open to eating both at any time. The kibble is high in meat content and relatively low in grains and other plant matter. Once they are both used to raw meat, I will feed them that to supplement the kibble on a semi-regular basis. At the end of the day, I want the bulk of their calories and protein to come from meat either through their kibble or the raw stuff. Once they are eating meat as often as I can give it to them, I'd say the overall percentage of non-meat food in their diets will be quite low.

Still, I need them to be able to eat kibble when that is the only option I have for them. But I think the ultimate goal is a good compromise in light of the obstacles I have with giving them a full raw diet. I hope that makes sense.

Jay

 

[CorgiPaws]

Okay, I have to admit that I have no idea what the hell Claybuster is referring to.

No one ever does.

The kibble is high in meat content and relatively low in grains and other plant matter.

What Claybuster is TRYING to say, is that a TON of one grain is better than a little tiny bit of 10 or 15 plant matter or grain items. Claybuster would pick a food that is 50% Rice and 50% animal matter over a food that is 10% various plant substances (with no grains) and 90% animal matter. Whcih amkes sense to no one but him and Abady.

Still, I need them to be able to eat kibble when that is the only option I have for them. But I think the ultimate goal is a good compromise in light of the obstacles I have with giving them a full raw diet. I hope that makes sense.

Understandable and you're on the right track.
It makes perfect sense.

 

[claybuster]

No one ever does.
What Claybuster is TRYING to say, is that a TON of one grain is better than a little tiny bit of 10 or 15 plant matter or grain items. Claybuster would pick a food that is 50% Rice and 50% animal matter over a food that is 10% various plant substances (with no grains) and 90% animal matter. Whcih amkes sense to no one but him and Abady.

Just looking at Orijen Adult. The section with calorie content states 25% comes from Veggie and Fruit. A 40% protein feed, knock off 25% of that being fruit and veggie with a biologically appropriate value of zero and your down to 30% protein overall (animal), less than Abady.

What comes as a surprise, Raw feeders fall victim to different marketing strategies and think these diets are really good, despite the long list of omnivore ingredients. Falling for slick advertising and catch words like 'biologically appropriate' and 'modern canine', you would think raw feeders wouldn't be so easily fooled? Just look at all those inappropriate ingredients and you have issues with White Rice? Oh well, whatever floats your boat I guess.

I had always figured raw feeders to be a bit sharper than the average bear, but this list has me thoroughly convinced that IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.
If raw feeders advocate omnivore nutrition when you can't feed raw, I think all creditability is lost. It is obvious, raw feeders don't fully understand the concepts behind carnivore rations. The raw chicken or meat parts are great....but so is seaweed for this and cranberries for that, apples here, broccoli there...oh well.

Well, there has been some progress I think. When I first joined this list, raw feeders here were actually looking at animal by-products as a negative in commercial rations, falling for that same omnivore rhetoric coming out of the WDJ. Most raw feeders probably still feel that way, but I think I have helped few see some day light in that respect.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Just looking at Orijen Adult. The section with calorie content states 25% comes from Veggie and Fruit. A 40% protein feed, knock off 25% of that being fruit and veggie with a biologically appropriate value of zero and your down to 30% protein overall (animal), less than Abady.

Come on, CB ... you are comparing apples to oranges. You are comparing calories to protein. Not a good comparison. Fruits have a lot of sugar in them, thus a lot of calories. 40% protein is 40% protein. How much is animal protein and how much is plant? Just like all dog food, know one knows. Or the people who do know aren't saying. I would say a kibble with rice being the 2nd ingredient would be very high in plant protein.

What comes as a surprise, Raw feeders fall victim to different marketing strategies and think these diets are really good, despite the long list of omnivore ingredients.

Quit lumping all raw feeders into the same category. Very few of us feed commercial raw diets. Most on this list feed very few if any inappropriate ingredients. No one markets to us so there is no marketing strategy for us to fall for.

Falling for slick advertising and catch words like 'biologically appropriate' and 'modern canine', you would think raw feeders wouldn't be so easily fooled?

You know, many of us, including myself started raw feeding as BARFers, but BARFers generally become prey model raw feeders after a short time. It took me about 3 or 4 months to figure out that dogs didn't need these inappropriate ingredients.

Just look at all those inappropriate ingredients and you have issues with White Rice?

Not really a problem as long as you realize is is nothing more than a filler just as the veggies and fruits you are so upset about.

I had always figured raw feeders to be a bit sharper than the average bear, but this list has me thoroughly convinced that IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.

Hehe, name one where it's not. :smile:

If raw feeders advocate omnivore nutrition when you can't feed raw, I think all creditability is lost. It is obvious, raw feeders don't fully understand the concepts behind carnivore rations. The raw chicken or meat parts are great....but so is seaweed for this and cranberries for that, apples here, broccoli there...oh well.

"Oh, what a twisted web we weave, when we first practice to deceive" - Sir Walter Scott.

Well, there has been some progress I think. When I first joined this list, raw feeders here were actually looking at animal by-products as a negative in commercial rations, falling for that same omnivore rhetoric coming out of the WDJ. Most raw feeders probably still feel that way, but I think I have helped few see some day light in that respect.

I'll give you credit for somewhat changing my perspective on by-products although I feel if they are fed exclusively there can be no balance in the diet. By-products should be fed as maybe 10% to 15% of the diet and no more.

 

[CorgiPaws]

Just looking at Orijen Adult. The section with calorie content states 25% comes from Veggie and Fruit. A 40% protein feed, knock off 25% of that being fruit and veggie with a biologically appropriate value of zero and your down to 30% protein overall (animal), less than Abady.

You can't know the exact numbers to knock off, and even if you did, that's not important. Like I said, anyone who knows ANYTHING about canine nutrition would know there is not one single kibble out there that is perfect.

What comes as a surprise, Raw feeders fall victim to different marketing strategies and think these diets are really good, despite the long list of omnivore ingredients. Falling for slick advertising and catch words like 'biologically appropriate' and 'modern canine', you would think raw feeders wouldn't be so easily fooled?

Falling victim to what marketing? I've never seen marketing for prey model raw feeding?

Just look at all those inappropriate ingredients and you have issues with White Rice? Oh well, whatever floats your boat I guess.

It's not a matter of having issues with this or that. It's you trying to knock anything that has any plant matter as a sixth, seventh, etc. ingredient, and then scooping heaps of rice into your dog's bowl as ingredient #2. I personally feel rice (as well as all the veggies and fruits in grain free formulas) are species inappropriate but if I had to pick between veggies and grains, I'd go veggies.

I had always figured raw feeders to be a bit sharper than the average bear, but this list has me thoroughly convinced that IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.
If raw feeders advocate omnivore nutrition when you can't feed raw, I think all creditability is lost.

I'm 100% sure there is NO raw feeder that would recommend ANY kibble over a raw diet. We all know raw is the superior choice. We also know that certain living situations, changes in lifestyle, and other thing can temporarily prevent raw from being an option. In that case, next best would be a diet that at least eliminates grains as cheap fillers. Hence: grain free formulas. We do, however, recognize that even these are not entirely species-appropriate (though my dogs, with their heads buried deep in the squash plants beg to differ.) and realize that NO kibble has everything they need. Hence why kibble diests are generally supplemented while raw are not.

It is obvious, raw feeders don't fully understand the concepts behind carnivore rations.

You're absolutely right Anyone who would feed a carnivore big hunks of meat, organs, and bone much have no idea what the hell they're doing. Thank you for enlightening us?

The raw chicken or meat parts are great....but so is seaweed for this and cranberries for that, apples here, broccoli there...oh well.

Again, you don't get it (which in no way suprises me) It's NOT a matter of it being okay. It's a matter of it being better than grains which are entirely undigestable by dogs and are huge allergens for MANY. No one has once made a claim that ANY kibble, grain free or not is better than a species appropriate raw diet.

When I first joined this list, raw feeders here were actually looking at animal by-products as a negative in commercial rations, falling for that same omnivore rhetoric coming out of the WDJ.

Unnamed byproducts are the only red flag. I don't turn away a food for "chicken by product" by I won't buy straight unnamed "animal by product" because you have NO idea what you're getting, and it could be euthanized animals out of shelters or road kill.
I will not, however, buy a product that the leading chunck of protien comes from by product sources. I feel that whole meat, or meat meals are still superior, and there is no way a diet consisting of mainly by products (and rice!) can be balanced without heavy supplementation.

Most raw feeders probably still feel that way, but I think I have helped few see some day light in that respect.

You really think that you've got this whole thing figured out and everyone else knows nothing, don't you?

 

[claybuster]

Unnamed byproducts are the only red flag. I don't turn away a food for "chicken by product" by I won't buy straight unnamed "animal by product" because you have NO idea what you're getting, and it could be euthanized animals out of shelters or road kill.
I will not, however, buy a product that the leading chunck of protien comes from by product sources. I feel that whole meat, or meat meals are still superior, and there is no way a diet consisting of mainly by products (and rice!) can be balanced without heavy supplementation.

Yes, and the question is "heavy supplementation"??? Well, if you pick EVO or Orijen, that would be Potatoes, apples, broccoli, kelp, yucca, garlic, tomato pomace, etc., etc, etc., ALL CONTRIDICTORY to the principles behind raw feeding and carnivore rations. I have "heavy supplementation" behind that chicken by-product meal and white rice, but not that stuff in EVO or Orijen.
Heavy Supplementation, Linsey would be: Menhaden Fish Meal, Lard, Beef Fat,
Beef Meat and Bone Meal, Undefatted Beef Liver, Menhaden Fish Oil, etc. We just have different thoughts on what the "heavy supplementation" backup ingredients should be in a ration. Your list and the picks of other raw feeders would appear to favor omnivore style ingredients when you absolutely can't feed raw.

Again, you don't get it (which in no way suprises me) It's NOT a matter of it being okay. It's a matter of it being better than grains which are entirely undigestable by dogs and are huge allergens for MANY.

Only in raw form are grains indigestible. Grains do however come cooked in dog food, therefore grains thus become very easily digestible for the dog, white rice being the most digestible of all. Grain free is a gimmick. They've substituted the fiber from grain with that of plant fiber. Zero additional benefits with that substitution, zippo. And, lol, when’s is the last time a vet ever blamed the barley or wheat? Don't you know they blame chicken or beef for the allergies? How did all those poor dogs survive with all those dreaded allergies before grain-free?

You really think that you've got this whole thing figured out and everyone else knows nothing, don't you?

Well, I wouldn't say everyone else knows nothing, but yea, I think I got a good handle on the dog food. That's easy, look who I have in my corner, the undisputed King of Raw Feeds since 1972, the first in the industry to sell commercial raw.
Billinghurst, Lonsdale, followers not leaders, they came 20 years plus after Abady was selling commercial raw. BARF didn't just happen, only the phrase was coined. People were feeding raw meat w/ raw bone for decades, even before Abady in '72. Home prepared meat based rations have been fed ever since there have been …kitchens.

 

[CorgiPaws]

Your list and the picks of other raw feeders would appear to favor omnivore style ingredients when you absolutely can't feed raw.

I, as you know, am a raw feeder who can't feed raw right now, and thus feed EVO. Let me tell yuo why: it has higher meat content than most kibbles, and it's grain free. How is your rice any better than my potatos?
Lets compare the first ten ingredients, as we know that's about the only ones that have any signifigant quantity in them.

My EVO Red Meat:
Beef
Lamb Meal
Potatoes
Egg
Sunflower Oil
Buffalo
Lamb
Venison
Beef Cartilage
Herring Oil


Your Abady Classic:
Chicken By-Products Meal
White Rice
Menhaden Fish Meal
Lard
Safflower Oil
Beef Fat
Dicalcium Phosphate
Beef Meat and Bone Meal
Potassium Chloride
Undefatted Beef Liver


Not only does my food have MORE meat in it, but it's higher quality products as well. You say that Abady is so fantastic because of what's NOT in it, but I'd like to point out that your ingredient list is much longer than mine.

Only in raw form are grains indigestible.

I don't care how you want to twist it around, grains are species innapropriate, cooked or not. I have never in my entire life seen a wolf out in the wilderness with his stove on high, and a pot of rice going for the pups. If you in fact have seen this and can prove it, let me know and I will gladly admit that you're kibble is slightly better than my opinion of it now. Until then, IMO: Abady fails.

Zero additional benefits with that substitution, zippo. And, lol, when’s is the last time a vet ever blamed the barley or wheat? Don't you know they blame chicken or beef for the allergies?

You're wrong again! The benefit comes from staying away from ingredients that are known to be common allergens. I am by no means defending fruits and veggies as apecies appropriate ingredients, because I know the definition of "carnivore." When ti comes to kibbles, they're all bad, it's just a matter of which is less bad than others. For me, it's a matter of what has the highest quality meat sources and content, less common allergens, and I prefer a limited ingredient list. Evo fits that. Abady doesn't even come close.
And for me and my dogs, we're best with no grains. As for what vets blame, I couldn't care less. You and I both know that vets don't know crap about food and allergies. My fiance's Westie is about to eat his paws off while he eats crap Purina food and his vet says it's a "nervous habit" when he's the most happy-go-lucky dog around. I will take my educated opinion and personal experience over some Hills-educated vet has to say any day.
Grains are a common allergen, and you can be in denial about that all you want.

How did all those poor dogs survive with all those dreaded allergies before grain-free?

Before quality dog food entered his life, my Beagle survived with seizures multiple times a month. Hasn't had a single one since the switch. I'd say he benefited from it quiet a bit. What you call a 'gimmick' I call real results.

That's easy, look who I have in my corner, the undisputed King of Raw Feeds since 1972, the first in the industry to sell commercial raw.

Undisputed according to you, whcih has zero credibility. And first does NOT necessarily mean best, in fact, it RARELY means best. In fact, the first can usually get away with anything because little is known about it. Again, you REALLY want the debate to be about commercial raw diets, but it's simply not because people who know enough to feed raw know that commercial is NOT the way to go.

People were feeding raw meat w/ raw bone for decades, even before Abady in '72. Home prepared meat based rations have been fed ever since there have been …kitchens.

Oh but I thought he was the one who started it all? Or did you just controdict yourself once again?
Going off of your logic in the previous statement you believe that "first" is "best" therefore, you admitted raw is better than your processed junk food? You're worse than a political figure running for offiec with all your flip flops.