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yeah i have been knowing about this for about a year now.
there is even some debate that does are NOT even pack animals. much-less have an alpha.

who knows... no one is a dog. i bet the dogs themselves dont even know.
 

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There is no one true alpha in our pack. If I were to classify them in a hierarchy I would put Bailey on top. But she is not always alpha, just depends on the situation. Sometimes Emmy gets a hair up her butt and decides she's top dog LOL

ETA: Cesar Millan is a hack and a fraud. I dislike him greatly!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I am surprised it isn't Shiloh!
 

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Her and Bailey but heads but Shiloh almost always backs down or walks away. Especially when Bailey means business. They have gotten into it a few times (in the past but not lately) and they just put up with each other now.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't think either of our dogs are in charge to be honest...it's definitely Echo the African Grey.
Ha. She let them both know who is boss right away.
She actually likes Jack but still hates Flip. Brat.

Flip has a screaming monkey toy and we call it "Mon-Kay" (don't ask, but Flip goes and gets it when we say it).

Just recently Echo has taken to yelling 'MON KAY!!' and poor Flip goes running to find it.

lols
 

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This is a good article. I wish more people realized this. A wolf pack is not really a pack at all, rather a family of Dad, Mom, and all their offspring. Mom and Dad are the leaders and teachers. Pups follow their parents the same way we all do. We don't fight for leader of the family. Mom and Dad are always the leaders.

In my latter days of training professionally, I would try to emphasize to my clients to stop thinking of this as dog training but think of it as teaching your dog desirable behaviors and teaching him to live in the human world. Be his leader, teacher, and mentor. Don't be his trainer and you don't have to dominate him. If you lead, the dog will gladly follow.

OOPS!!! rambling ... sorry :smile:
 

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We have screaming monkeys too! Bailey's favorite toy...and there is no other way to say it other than MON-KAY??? With an emphasis on making it a question LOL
 

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why do you hate cesar millan danemamma? i read his books and have seen his tv show and think he has a lot of good information and has helped a lot of dogs and people.
 

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why do you hate cesar millan danemamma? i read his books and have seen his tv show and think he has a lot of good information and has helped a lot of dogs and people.
I'm not danemama but I'll be glad to answer your question. CM learned his training techniques from his Grandfather when he was a child. These techniques were out of date before he ever began. He uses techniques that are abusive and cruel. SOME of what he says is good information but if you are not knowledgable enough to know the difference, then stay away from him or his techniques.

There are 10,000 dog trainers around the US that do a better job at what he does every day. Back in the day I was a professional trainer, my day was about what you see on CM's show except I didn't have to be rough or abusive on my client's dogs. I saw the same type dogs with the same type problems. I worked with the clients exactly as he does except I showed them how to use positive reinforcement to get the same results.

CM is an actor ... a showman. NEVER forget you are watching a TV show. It has a script. You don't see what goes on when the camera is turned off or you don't see what was edited out of his show. He is a very good TV personality but a medicore dog trainer.

Watch Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. She is 10 times the trainer CM is.
 

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Um...exactly what RFD said. And to add, some of the videos I've seen of him just make me sick. He strangles dogs to the point of near suffocation and declares that its merely his "power" over the dog working it's "magic" to calm the dog down. Just do a google search for "Cesar Millan choking dog" and see what pops up.
 

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I will be the first to admit that when I first watched CM I was totally into it, thought he was great.

However, the more I watch it and the more I learn about teaching with positive reinforcement I am not a fan anymore. There are a FEW things (a very select few things) that I agree with like how important exercise is, but not much of anything else. Just the other day I caught a few minutes of The Dog Whisperer and it really bothered me....

I do think you need to be a strong, positive, calm leader and you must see your role as more of a teacher than one who wants to dominate in a negative way. I too am a fan of Victoria and watch her show often. :wink:
 

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Apparantly his wife doesn't like his technique either as she is divorcing him! LOL
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Maybe he tries to make her submit too. ;)
 

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wow i didn't realize there was so much hate for cesar millan. i admit i haven't watched his shows as much as i have read his books and i never felt like any of it was "abusive." i think he had a lot of good things to offer dog owners including the need to exercise dogs regularly, the importance of good dog walking, only praising them for behaviors you want, creating consistent rules and boundaries, and being calm assertive (sorry if some people find this common sense but i haven't read that many dog behavior books either). here's a quote from his book cesar's way that mention's his techniques:

"How we go about correcting our dogs is also the subject of much debate. There is an influential school of thought right now that argues that positive reinforcement and positive training technique alone should be used with dogs, or with any animal. In my opinion, positive reinforcement is to be desired and is wonderful- when it works. It works for happy-go-lucky dogs and for the dogs we raise as puppies. If you can get the behavior you desire out of feeding your dog treats, by all means go for it. But the dogs that come to me are often ones whose behavior is way out of control. They're rescued dogs who've had terrible pasts filled with abuse, deprivation, and cruelty. Or they're dogs who've lived their whole lives without any rules, boundaries, or limitations whatsoever. Then there are red-zone dogs that we've discussed. These dogs are too far gone to be rehabilitated simply by using treats."

ok so that's my take on his defense. i don't personally know CM or what's not shown behind the scenes or is failed to be mentioned in his books, but from what i read he seems to really love his dogs and has helped other dogs when other trainers have given up on them and would have been euthanized otherwise. i googled cesar millan choking dog and found a clip of him using a choking collar on a husky. i don't know what its like to train an aggressive dog because i would definitely use the choker to prevent myself from being mauled by that dog too if i had it on a leash. but hopefully i won't be in that situation and i obviously would never want to hurt my own dog yuffie, but we love each other and she listens to me too. so sorry for my long rant, and i will definitely check out that other dog trainer rfd mentioned - Victoria Stilwell's show "It's Me or the Dog" on Animal Planet. sorry for my long post, i guess i just found some of CM's info useful. and a "celebrity" getting divorced? wow that's surprising....
 

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Don't be sorry. We are all entitled to our own opinions on things like this. I don't like him at all. But many people do. And I do think he's helped a lot of people out, BUT it could have been done in a better, more positive way.
 

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I personally can't stand Victoria. She really bothers me. I can't pinpoint it. It's not even her training techniques, because I use quite a few of her techniques. It's just her... she rubs me the wrong way. For one, she always seems TOTALLY against a dog sleeping in a humans bed. I, personally, don't find anything wrong with this at ALL. If a dog is guarding a bed, yes, that's a problem that needs to be fixed. But she just automatically thinks it's a terrible idea.

She will often times throw out peoples clothes they have for their dogs. OK, I'm not big on dressing your dog every single day for no good reason, or wearing dresses, etc. Jackson's got a few coats for winter and a few holiday shirts (and tons of bandanas and collars) but anyways... she will just plain throw stuff out. Some dogs DO need coats in the winter, hello. I really don't think there's anything wrong with putting a shirt on your dog every now and then, either. Your dog, your choice, as long as it's not harming the dog. She acts totally disgusted. The thing I DO like about Cesar, is when he comes across people who are obsessed with making their dogs human thru clothing, and everything, he doesn't judge or make rude remarks or throw anything away.... he just explains they need to be a dog first, then you can treat them like a human or whatever.

I also don't like that I've never seen Victoria with her own dogs. Does she even have any? I feel like Cesar is so much more personable and you get to see the love and bond between him and all of his dogs at the center.

With that said, I really like Cesar as a person. I think he's done alot of good for dogs when it comes to rescue, spay/neuter campaigns, awareness, and he's saved a ton of dogs from death row. Would I personally agree with some of his methods? Not entirely. But I love a lot of his basic principles, such as exercise, discipline and affection. I think he means well and truly loves dogs (unlike that Brad whatshisname, who is just... ugh, no words). Recent episodes have shown a much softer Cesar, and I think it's wonderful that he's learning and willing to change and try new things. Alot of trainers wouldn't do that. Everyone has to start and learn somewhere.

Again, I use positive methods only, but I also don't have a real dominant, aggressive or problem dog, so I have no first hand experience.
 

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This is evidence for my dislike of Cesar (I don't see these as the "aggression" that many people do...because most people don't know what true aggression looks like).

First thing, they don't show continuous feed. Second, he starts choking the dog before any signs of aggression are shown. Third, he KICKS the dogs (watch Cesar's right leg, about 3 or so seconds into the video), he flippin' kicks the dogs to elicit a reaction (IE an attack) so Cesar can make the dog out to be aggressive. Fourth, he feeds the leash through the handle loop in the leash to choke the dog more efficiently (he shows you how to do this). Finally, at the end of the video the dog is gasping for air, collapsed on the ground. This dog is not in a "relaxed" state, he is fighting for a breath of air. How is this even "technique" or even "training"??? This is just plain old animal abuse.

Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Entertainment Videos | Comcast.net

There are just no words to descirbe this one:

YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‎

Just watch his right hand. You will see the shock collar remote for yourself.

YouTube - ‪GSD Cesar shocl collar‬‎

These are just a few of the reasons that shows that Cesar is just a TV personality that is paid to look good, but has no real skill in training dogs. He uses outdated techniques, over dominance, and cheap/abusive tools (IE shock collar) to "train" dogs. Why? Because he doesn't possess the knowledge or experience that his books make him out to have. My guess is that they used some good trainers and got their ideas and then made it into a big marketing deal. Did it help a lot of people? I'm sure it did. But what is the right kind of help? Most likely not. This is just my opinion. What is your opinion after watching these videos???
 

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This is evidence for my dislike of Cesar (I don't see these as the "aggression" that many people do...because most people don't know what true aggression looks like).

First thing, they don't show continuous feed. Second, he starts choking the dog before any signs of aggression are shown. Third, he KICKS the dogs (watch Cesar's right leg, about 3 or so seconds into the video), he flippin' kicks the dogs to elicit a reaction (IE an attack) so Cesar can make the dog out to be aggressive. Fourth, he feeds the leash through the handle loop in the leash to choke the dog more efficiently (he shows you how to do this). Finally, at the end of the video the dog is gasping for air, collapsed on the ground. This dog is not in a "relaxed" state, he is fighting for a breath of air. How is this even "technique" or even "training"??? This is just plain old animal abuse.

Shadow, Jake & Riley and Norton | Entertainment Videos | Comcast.net

There are just no words to descirbe this one:

YouTube - ‪Safe or Unsafe Handling of an Aggressive Dog‬‎

Just watch his right hand. You will see the shock collar remote for yourself.

YouTube - ‪GSD Cesar shocl collar‬‎

These are just a few of the reasons that shows that Cesar is just a TV personality that is paid to look good, but has no real skill in training dogs. He uses outdated techniques, over dominance, and cheap/abusive tools (IE shock collar) to "train" dogs. Why? Because he doesn't possess the knowledge or experience that his books make him out to have. My guess is that they used some good trainers and got their ideas and then made it into a big marketing deal. Did it help a lot of people? I'm sure it did. But what is the right kind of help? Most likely not. This is just my opinion. What is your opinion after watching these videos???
Now I'm not saying that I approve of everything that CM does, but I just wanted to give my opinion. In the first video, he "kicked" (I wouldn't really call it kicking) the dog because it was getting focused on the other dog. That's what caused the dog to go after him. I just wanted to make it clear that he didn't just randomly kick it for no reason.

As for the second video...have you ever tried grooming one of those brush-loving pooches? I have and it's definitely not fun. I've held them back too to avoid getting bit.

The third video you do have a point.

Just my two cents. :biggrin:
 
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