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Discussion Starter #1
Those of you that feed raw do you only feed meat or do you supplement with veggies and fruit?
 

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it has to be balanced with bones and organs, otherwise your dog will not get the proper nutrition.
Veggies are not necessary in raw diet, but they can still be used in minimal ammount, some people also add fish oil, enzymes, probiotics, etc, but its not necessary, except maybe fish oil since regular meat is difficient in omega 3's (unless you buy free range and organic)
 

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Veggies can be fun for treats (a few of ours like carrots) but they have 0 nutritional value for the dogs.

Your dogs bodies don't produce the digestive enzymes necessary to break down plant material

Raw meat, bones and organs (and fish oil if you'd like) is all a dog needs :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Veggies can be fun for treats (a few of ours like carrots) but they have 0 nutritional value for the dogs.

Your dogs bodies don't produce the digestive enzymes necessary to break down plant material :biggrin:
Why then do foxes eat fruits and veggies? We had one that raided the garden and would eat corn and canteloupes. I know that they eat persimmons and peaches also. I mean foxes and coyotes are basically dogs. Coyotes are the same way they will eat fruits and berries.
 

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Why then do foxes eat fruits and veggies? We had one that raided the garden and would eat corn and canteloupes. I know that they eat persimmons and peaches also. I mean foxes and coyotes are basically dogs. Coyotes are the same way they will eat fruits and berries.

Foxes, Coyotes, Wolves, and domestic dogs are all classified in the same Family: Canidae. But despite their similarities, they are different.

Foxes are considered to be omnivorous (eating plant material) on an evolutionary level, possessing the necessary physical attributes to help digest plant material (ie a longer digestive tract, altho they do not have the ability to breakdown plant material). They feed primarily on rodents and other small mammals, but also fruits/veggies when prey is limited.

Coyotes and Wolves are 90% carnivorous in the wild. They resort to eating garbage and other plant material when food is scarce. If they had a choice to eat meat compared to veggies, they would 100% go for the meat.

The domesticated dog is the decendant of wolves, but are so different because we have selectively changed their phenotype through breeding. There is much debate over whether domestic dogs are 100% carnivores, but just looking at their physical characteristics alone, they would be classified as carnivores.

If you take into consideration that dogs do not possess the ability to breakdown plant material, then why should they be fed it? Of course, dogs, wolves, and coyotes resort to eating garbage and plants in a limiting environment, but are they getting all the nutrition they can from it? You would have to puree the fruits/veggies for them to get all the nutrients from them...but all the nutrients are present in the meat, bones and organs of their prey. That is where they get their whole nutrition from. So IMO it seems that meat, bones and organs are the best and easiest form to give them that nutrition, so why bother with fruits/veggies?

It certainly wont hurt to feed them fruits/veggies, although some dogs have a hard time with runny stools because of them in their diet. As long as your dogs seem to be fine, then there really isn't a problem feeding them.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
They feed primarily on rodents and other small mammals, but also fruits/veggies when prey is limited.
I have to disagree here. Foxes eat fruits and veggies when they are abuntant not only when prey is limited. Coyotes are omnivorous. Fruits and berries make up a large part of there diet.
 

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I have to disagree here. Foxes eat fruits and veggies when they are abuntant not only when prey is limited. Coyotes are omnivorous. Fruits and berries make up a large part of there diet.
They might eat them on a regular basis just because they taste good, even when food is not limited. I think that one would have to do extensive research into their diets and habits to know for sure.

You also have to take into consideration that we humans are taking over their natural habitat. What was once their natural habitat (probably no veggies/fruit gardens) is now your backyard. I am sure if you look at strictly wild populations of Coyotes, they wouldn't go out of their way to choose a garden with fruits and veggies, they would stick to small mammals and other prey items in their territory. That is unless their food supplies are running short.

Urban populations of Coyotes probably eat fruits and veggies more often than wild populations considering its an ample food source, that takes little to no energy to consume. This species is highly adaptable in an urban environment, because it takes advantage of people's gardens. Are fruits and veggies better for them than fresh meat, bones and organs? IMO I don't think so.

Here is some really basic research about Coyotes. All of these sources say that they are on average ~90% carnivorous in their diet (so yes, they are actually considered omnivorous), resorting to fruits/veggies in the fall and winter months. I do not know if all of these sources are looking at wild populations only or if they are looking at urban populations only or both...

I like wikipedia, because it is an open website (anyone can change it, which means that there are tons of reviewers out there making changes, but resources are required to make changes...ie you have to prove why you are making a change). Its good for just general information:

Coyote - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

coyote or coyotes wildlife information - DesertUSA

Coyote - Canis latrans - NatureWorks

Coyotes, Coyote Pictures, Coyote Facts - National Geographic

Here is some basic research on Foxes. They are also ~90% carnivorous, but again since they eat some plant material they are considered omnivorous.

Fox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The fox website | Ecology | Basic facts

Red Foxes, Red Fox Pictures, Red Fox Facts - National Geographic

Again, basic info on wolves (which are considered to be strict carnivores):

Gray Wolf - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

International Wolf Center Learn - Wolf Predation on Ungulates

And since the wolf is the closest extant species to the domesticated dog, I would expect that their diet be as closely mimicked as possible. Like I stated earlier fruits and veggies in a dogs diet certainly wont hurt at all...millions of dogs survive off of crap kibble anyhow.

Dog - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

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I have to disagree here. Foxes eat fruits and veggies when they are abuntant not only when prey is limited. Coyotes are omnivorous. Fruits and berries make up a large part of there diet.
A dog is not a fox. A dog is not a coyotte. A dog IS a wolf. A dog is not decended from wolves, and dog is a wolf. It has the same digestive system as a wolf. Neither dogs nor wolves can not extract nutrients from plant matter because of jaw structure, dentation, chemestry in their digestive tract, and length of digestive tract. Yes, wolves and dogs eat some berries. Most experts agree this is because they taste good, very similar to us eating cake and ice cream ... good taste, no nutrition. They will occasionally eat some fruits and veggies for the same reason. Not for nutrition. Of course a starving animal will eat anything.

There are no nutrients needed by dogs in plant matter that is not in the meat, bones, and organs of the animals that consume them (prey animals).
 

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Discussion Starter #9
A dog is not a fox. A dog is not a coyotte. A dog IS a wolf. A dog is not decended from wolves, and dog is a wolf. It has the same digestive system as a wolf. Neither dogs nor wolves can not extract nutrients from plant matter because of jaw structure, dentation, chemestry in their digestive tract, and length of digestive tract. Yes, wolves and dogs eat some berries. Most experts agree this is because they taste good, very similar to us eating cake and ice cream ... good taste, no nutrition. They will occasionally eat some fruits and veggies for the same reason. Not for nutrition. Of course a starving animal will eat anything.

There are no nutrients needed by dogs in plant matter that is not in the meat, bones, and organs of the animals that consume them (prey animals).

Actually a dog is not a wolf anymore than your a chimp. They share 98.5 to 99.5 % Dna with wolves depending on who's study you believe. Fox share about 94-95 %. At any rate dogs eat what they have evolved to eat. Just because they share wolf Dna does not mean they should have the same diet.
Red fox and Gray fox for example have different diets with the gray being far more of an omnivore evolving to climb trees to eat fruit as well as escape danger. Bears also have evolved different with Polar bears and certain Brown bears being 95-99% meat eaters and southern Black bears eating over 50% vegetation, fruits berries ect..
Also wolves in captivity live far longer than wild wolves and the majority of them are feed dry kibble. I know they get medical care ect. ect... but if they needed raw meat they certainly would not be living longer.
 

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Also wolves in captivity live far longer than wild wolves and the majority of them are feed dry kibble. I know they get medical care ect. ect... but if they needed raw meat they certainly would not be living longer.
Well that's because the main cause of death to wolves in the wild is bullets. Take away the bullets and most things are apt to live much longer.
 

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Actually a dog is not a wolf anymore than your a chimp. They share 98.5 to 99.5 % Dna with wolves depending on who's study you believe. Fox share about 94-95 %.
Wolves/dogs are about .2% different in mcdna and chimps/humans are 2% different.

At any rate dogs eat what they have evolved to eat. Just because they share wolf Dna does not mean they should have the same diet.
Of course it does. If they needes a different diet, their digestive system would be different. Just like a cow digestive system is different from a wolf.

Red fox and Gray fox for example have different diets with the gray being far more of an omnivore evolving to climb trees to eat fruit as well as escape danger. Bears also have evolved different with Polar bears and certain Brown bears being 95-99% meat eaters and southern Black bears eating over 50% vegetation, fruits berries ect..
Red fox/gray fox ... different species. Polar bear/brown bear/black bear ... different species. Wolf/dog ... same species.

Also wolves in captivity live far longer than wild wolves and the majority of them are feed dry kibble.
Where do you get that inforamtion? Most of the wolf sanctuaries that I know of feed raw meat, bones, and organs. Most of the wolf rescues do also. Every single one of the wolf owners I know of without exception feed raw meat, bones, and organs.

I know they get medical care ect. ect... but if they needed raw meat they certainly would not be living longer.
That is speculation on your part and not very accurate information. I would like to know what you base such a statement on. Are you are saying any animal would live longer on processed food than on whole raw food? Find me a nutritionist that would agree with that. That is, find me a nutritionist that doesn't work for a dog food company that would agree with that.

At no time anywhere on earth is processed food more nutritious than whole raw food. There is never a time that any animal will live longer on processed food than he will in a good raw diet. Even the powerful rich kibble companies can't prove that a dog will live longer on their food than on a raw diet.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Wolves/dogs are about .2% different in mcdna and chimps/humans are 2% different.



Of course it does. If they needes a different diet, their digestive system would be different. Just like a cow digestive system is different from a wolf.



Red fox/gray fox ... different species. Polar bear/brown bear/black bear ... different species. Wolf/dog ... same species.



Where do you get that inforamtion? Most of the wolf sanctuaries that I know of feed raw meat, bones, and organs. Most of the wolf rescues do also. Every single one of the wolf owners I know of without exception feed raw meat, bones, and organs.



That is speculation on your part and not very accurate information. I would like to know what you base such a statement on. Are you are saying any animal would live longer on processed food than on whole raw food? Find me a nutritionist that would agree with that. That is, find me a nutritionist that doesn't work for a dog food company that would agree with that.

At no time anywhere on earth is processed food more nutritious than whole raw food. There is never a time that any animal will live longer on processed food than he will in a good raw diet. Even the powerful rich kibble companies can't prove that a dog will live longer on their food than on a raw diet.
Gray and Red fox are of the same species as are the bears.

As for the info on kibble for captive wolfs that can be found on several zoo web site but here is one example.

Mexican Wolf Husbandry Manual
Prepared by Kent Newton, Rio Grande Zoological Park

Nearly all of the Mexican wolves currently held in captivity are
fed dry dog foods such as Ralston Purina Pro Plan TM (Ralston Purina Co., St. Louis, MO 63188) or
Hill’s Science Diet TM (Hill’s Pet Nutrition, Topeka, KS, 66606) should be fed. Such meat-based diets
are high in digestibility and are less likely to result in digestive upsets and diarrhea associated with
high cereal diets. Low quality “budget” dog foods should not be used due to uncertain control of
nutrient concentrations ad ingredient digestibility.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
"Wolves/dogs are about .2% different in mcdna"

Thats only looking at dna from the female side from studies in the 90's.
Dna testing has come along way since then as I said depends on who's study you look at.
 

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Nearly all of the Mexican wolves currently held in captivity are
fed dry dog foods such as Ralston Purina Pro Plan TM (Ralston Purina Co., St. Louis, MO 63188) or
Hill’s Science Diet TM (Hill’s Pet Nutrition, Topeka, KS, 66606) should be fed. Such meat-based diets
are high in digestibility and are less likely to result in digestive upsets and diarrhea associated with
high cereal diets. Low quality “budget” dog foods should not be used due to uncertain control of
nutrient concentrations ad ingredient digestibility.
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that Purina Pro Plan and Hill's Science Diet are high quality and highly digestable meat based diets?
 

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"Wolves/dogs are about .2% different in mcdna"

Thats only looking at dna from the female side from studies in the 90's.
Dna testing has come along way since then as I said depends on who's study you look at.
BUT, this is the dna that is used to determine how animals are related. It is the dna that you would study to determine who is the same or different species. For example, mcdna determines that dogs have no other animals in their blood lines other than gray wolves.

The experts who determine who belongs to which species, the Smithsonian Institution and the American Society of Mammalogists have determined that wolves/dogs are the same species. This classification was made during the early 1990s and hasn't changed.

Grey wolf is classified as Canis Lupus and dog is Canis Lupus Famiarias making them the same species. These clasifications are made by the experts listed in the previous paragraph and they are 100 times more knowledgable than you and I combined.

As for the foxes and bears, I don't have time to look up their scientific names right now but maybe tomorrow sometime I will have time to get them to show they are different species.

ETA: Black Bear = Ursus americanus
Brown (Grizzly) Bear = Ursus arctos
Polar Bear = Ursus maritimus
There are actually 8 different species of bears.

Red Fox = Urocyon vulpes
Gray Fox = Urocyon cinereoargenteus
 

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Discussion Starter #17
So let me get this straight. Are you saying that Purina Pro Plan and Hill's Science Diet are high quality and highly digestable meat based diets?
I didn't say anything. You asked about the info on captive wolves being feed kibble that is a quote from the Mexican Wolf Husbandry Manual
Prepared by Kent Newton, Rio Grande Zoological Park

But you can find the same info on several zoo web sites they feed there wolves meat based kibble.
 

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