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My wife and I will be receiving our two new shih tzu pups in a couple of weeks. They will be approximately 8-9 weeks old when we get them. We have always fed our past furry friends a mixture of kibble and a good quality canned food. Our Llahsa Apso lasted 17 1/2 years and our Basset Hound made it 13 1/2 years on this diet. Neither one had any major medical issues throughout their lifetime other than old age. I had never really thought about given our dogs a raw diet. But after doing some preliminary prep for our new kids, especially those related to diet, I'm not so sure I want to go this route again. The information on some of the major dry kibble brands scare me to death. We will need help with this new method. First, will a raw diet be suitable for these new guys? Secondly, if so, how do we go about it? Are there any websites with menus, portions and how to's? Is there a good, high quality kibble to use in association with a raw diet? Is it even necessary? So many questions. These will probably be the last pets we will ever have given our age and we want to do it right. Thanks for any input, suggestions or information. Thanks.
 

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Follow-up

At the risk of being monotonous, if there are threads that answer similar questions to what I've asked, please point me to them. Thanks again.
 

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First, will a raw diet be suitable for these new guys?
Absolutely. To say otherwise would be like saying that grass in inappropriate to feed a calf. Puppies in the wild have been fed a raw diet for millions of years. Kibble, being only 50 or so years old is the new comer to town. Why aren't you instead asking if its suitable to feed them kibble? Kibble has never been proven to be anywhere nearly as healthy as a raw diet.

Secondly, if so, how do we go about it?
Check out my web page listed in my sig. Read it carefully and also read the links and get the book. If you have any questions after that (and you will), don't hesitate to ask them.

Are there any websites with menus, portions and how to's?
Same as above

Is there a good, high quality kibble to use in association with a raw diet?
NO. Eventhough some people do it, it is never advised to feed kibble in association with a raw diet. Why would you want to dumb down the raw diet?

Is it even necessary?
No, not at all. Why would it be?

Congratulations on your new puppies. Have fun with them. :smile:
 

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Rawfeddogs,

Thanks for the info. I wished I had read your sig. site first. Most of my questions would have been answered there. Sorry. Great information. We have several weeks to get this right so we plan on starting now by reading all the literature we can on raw feeding. We'll let you know how it goes. Have a blessed day.
 

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It would be such a great idea to get your shih-tzu puppies started on raw from the beginning, they can be a very long-lived breed, especially if they're fed right :smile:

Raw would be the best, and least expensive way to keep them as healthy as possible.
 

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Is Abady raw as cheap as prey model raw? And does it come in the same form so the dogs are getting the most benefit out of chewing the huge hunks of meat and gnawing on bones?
 

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Is Abady raw as cheap as prey model raw? And does it come in the same form so the dogs are getting the most benefit out of chewing the huge hunks of meat and gnawing on bones?


No large bones, it is in the mix in the form of crushed bone. Abady raw looks more like hamburger. It is all meat. The only thing that I noticed was Rosemary but it had in parenthesis used as a natural preservative for the beef fat. I should pick up a bag and post up the ingredients....but on second thought, maybe not. I tried that once before with a Granular not posted on the Abady website and ended up removing them shortly thereafter. It would seem like if there are no botanicals in there like Dandelion, the food just doesn't make the grade, so why bother. If I get a package though I will gladly scan it for you send you an email if interested. Cheaper than whole prey? I'm guessing probably not. Safer than whole prey and equally nutritious....absolutely.

You can always get some bones from the butcher shop for the dog to gnaw on but too much bone can blow you calcium phosphous ratios out of whack which is proably not a good thing. I wouldn't over do it with bone if not necessary (already in the diet).
 

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Exactly, if you feed raw, you get it cheaper, with no rosemary, and with the bones included in every meal so you don't have to worry about adding too much calcium. And how is Abady safer than that? I'd actually be very interested in seeing the ingredients in Abady raw.
 

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Exactly, if you feed raw, you get it cheaper, with no rosemary, and with the bones included in every meal so you don't have to worry about adding too much calcium. And how is Abady safer than that? I'd actually be very interested in seeing the ingredients in Abady raw.


Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration. Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration. Wouldn't a probably balanced diet all the time be more ideal than just getting it right 80% or 70% of the time? Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons. There has already been one user I can think of on this board with a trip to the emergency Vet, a costly trip, for they did not do their homework in regards to weight bearing bone. I see a lot greater safety in a properly structured (even home prepared) meat based diets than whole prey model. Problem is finding a properly structured commercial raw ration w/out all the vegetables, fruit and grains (same path as omnivore kibble). You found one with Abady.

Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months. If I can stop in before then and grab a package I will.

I wouldn't be concerned too much about the rosemary. It is the extract, not the plant itself and obviously something natural to preserve the fats. Abady does not use artificial preservatives in any of their foods.
 

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Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration.
How do you know? Because they say so?

Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration.
How much is the proper balance? There is no exact amount necessary nor even an ideal amount. Anywhere between 10% and 35% of the diet is fine for bone. Thats a BIG range and not difficult to achieve.

Wouldn't a probably balanced diet all the time be more ideal than just getting it right 80% or 70% of the time?
No, its entirely unnecessary and I have doubts it's even healthy. Is every meal you eat completely balanced? I doubt it. You balance over time. Do you think animals in the wild get a perfectly balanced meal each day? Of course they don't.

Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons.
Thats baloney. I can teach anyone in a hour all they need to know to feed and execelent and a balanced prey model diet. There are just 2 basic hard and fast rules.
1. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
2. Feed mostly meat, some bones, and some organs. Exact ratios don't matter.

There, thats it. Now you know all you need to know to feed a balanced prey model raw diet.

I see a lot greater safety in a properly structured (even home prepared) meat based diets than whole prey model. Problem is finding a properly structured commercial raw ration w/out all the vegetables, fruit and grains (same path as omnivore kibble). You found one with Abady.
You are paranoid about all the possible bad things that can happen to you or your dogs. Prey model raw diet it safe. Dogs have been eating it for millions of years and thriving. Abady is just another one of the little companies who make pre-made raw paddies and call it a raw diet. It is nothing more than raw kibble. Nothing comes close to whole unprocessed food either for humans or any other animal.

Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months. If I can stop in before then and grab a package I will.
Why don't they put the ingredients of their raw food on their web page?
 

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How do you know? Because they say so?
Yes

How much is the proper balance? There is no exact amount necessary nor even an ideal amount. Anywhere between 10% and 35% of the diet is fine for bone. Thats a BIG range and not difficult to achieve.
If you say so.



No, its entirely unnecessary and I have doubts it's even healthy. Is every meal you eat completely balanced? I doubt it. You balance over time. Do you think animals in the wild get a perfectly balanced meal each day? Of course they don't.
That's a new one, unhealthy to eat balanced diets every day. We're not built for feast or famine like carnivore dog. When they eat in the wild they get it right all the time, even if that is once a week.


Thats baloney. I can teach anyone in a hour all they need to know to feed and execelent and a balanced prey model diet. There are just 2 basic hard and fast rules.
1. Feed raw meat, bones, and organs from a variety of animals.
2. Feed mostly meat, some bones, and some organs. Exact ratios don't matter.

There, thats it. Now you know all you need to know to feed a balanced prey model raw diet.
Sounds too easy to be true.

You are paranoid about all the possible bad things that can happen to you or your dogs. Prey model raw diet it safe. Dogs have been eating it for millions of years and thriving. Nothing comes close to whole unprocessed food either for humans or any other animal.
Whole prey is safe, yes that would be fresh road kill as well. Whole prey model is processed food. Only if you're hunting your own game or picking up road kill is the food unprocessed.

People do mistakes like the person on this list and ended up with a trip to the emergency vet because they did not do their homework. It happens.

Why don't they put the ingredients of their raw food on their web page?
Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.

Abady is just another one of the little companies who make pre-made raw paddies and call it a raw diet. It is nothing more than raw kibble.
Tell that to the sled dog team that finish the race in good standing. But we all know you think that is a bunch of lies and marketing. That would be the High Competition and Stress Formula, and it is way out of your league.
 

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Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.
Awh Claybuster, I didn't know I was always on your mind. Flattering.
If my personal experience and knowledge of canine nutrition qualifies certain ingredients as good, and certain ingredients as bad, then I pick me feed from there. By-products aren't TERRIBLE, but quality meats and meat meals are better. Fruits and veggies aren't GREAT, but better than grain. That is how I riled Abady out of MY PERSONAL list of what I am okay with feeding my dogs and what I'm not. This is how I can "bash" a product without trying it. Everything I know about canine nutrition tells me that I am feeding a superior diet to that, though NO prepared diet, be it kibble or commercial raw, comes close to a prey model raw diet.
Now I ask:
have you tried a diet of nothing but raw fruits and veggies for your dog? If not, WHY? Could it be because you know better than that? Because you have a better understanding of canines and carnivores than to go do something that stupid?
THAT is why I do NOT feed Abady. I have a better understanding and I feel there are better feeds. I give them thumbs up for animal content in their food. Applaud them for that. But what good is animal content if virtually none of it is from a quality meat source?
 

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Well, for one thing, everything is already balanced in the ration.
Dogs in the wild get their balance over a weeks or even a month's time. I'm not concerned about doing it every meal, though one definately could if they were concerned with it. It's just a matter of knowing a thing or two.

Lets say a raw feeder unwittingly has too much bone in the diet and not enough say organ meat, one could argue they have not achieved the proper balance in the ration.
Given the high range that is okay, you'd have to be the village idiot to seriously mess your dog up on prey model raw. So yes, one could argue that, but one would also be an idiot.
Also, chances are if you're going to dive into raw, you've done your research first. in fact, researching commercial dog foods and unwrapping its horrors is probably what made said individual go raw in the first place.

Another thing about safety is feeding a whole prey (model) diet you need to do some homework and have a good working knowledge of ingredients and what items to choose for what reasons.
Again, no one goes raw without researching anything first. No one. People who know nothing about dog food do the cheapest most convenient thing they can, figuring that if it's good enough that they can sell it, then it's good enough for their dog to eat.

There has already been one user I can think of on this board with a trip to the emergency Vet, a costly trip, for they did not do their homework in regards to weight bearing bone.
This particular person made a common mistake. Even somewhat informed people who know to feed raw bones don't necessarily know not to feed weight-bearing bones. I didn't. I was giving raw knuckles and femurs like crazy to my boys for a long time, luckily with no incident. When I learned better, I switched them to ribs.

Yes, I will get those ingredients to you but need some time. I picked up a new box recently and won't need feed for 3 months.
I don't trust anything about a dog food company that does not list all ingredients and nutritional information on their website. Sketchy thing number 12394872378978 from Abady. What are they hiding?

It is the extract, not the plant itself and obviously something natural to preserve the fats.
Just like you consider something that comes off of a plant to not be a plant, right?


Sounds like someone has bought into A LOT of ONE company's marketing and promotional material, and has been entirely brainwashed and blindsighted by it. But I won't point fingers, of course.
 

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THAT is why I do NOT feed Abady. I have a better understanding and I feel there are better feeds
We are all entitled to our opinions and mine happen to differ from yours when it comes to commercial dry feeds. I think you like EVO, and that is something I would choose not to feed because of certain ingredients, just like you would stay away from Abady because of certain ingredients.
 

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This particular person made a common mistake.
So we can assume it happens frequently because it is a common mistake and not an isloated incident.

Sounds like someone has bought into A LOT of ONE company's marketing and promotional material, and has been entirely brainwashed and blindsighted by it. But I won't point fingers, of course.
I feed the product because I feel it is the absolute best in the commercial market and have had nothing but excellent results for 7 years.
 

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But what good is animal content if virtually none of it is from a quality meat source?
Quality is again a matter of opinion. I feel through my research Chicken By-Product Meal is equally nutritious to Chicken Meal. By-Products in themselves are also equally nutritious to that of meat muscle. IMO the focus should be on the quantity of the animal source proteins in the ration but not necessarily the quality appeal of those ingredients. They could use road-kill for all I care, so long as animal source protein remain the focus.
 

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Have you ever read one word of their promotional material you don't believe? I have a saying that is very true and you should pay attention to it. "Always be wary of information given you by someone who stands to make money off any decision you make based on that information." You should print those words out in big letters, frame it, and hang it on your wall. :smile:

If you say so.
I do say so because it's true. That information is readily available if you look other places besided Abady's promotional material.

That's a new one, unhealthy to eat balanced diets every day. We're not built for feast or famine like carnivore dog. When they eat in the wild they get it right all the time, even if that is once a week.
I was simply making a point that no one eats a balanced diet every day or even any given day. Besides, what is balance? Who knows? Those that claim to know (and they don't) constantly change the "balance".

Sounds too easy to be true.
It's not. I've been feeding my dogs and cats that way for 7 years with no prolbem. They are fine healthy animals.

Whole prey is safe, yes that would be fresh road kill as well. Whole prey model is processed food. Only if you're hunting your own game or picking up road kill is the food unprocessed.
If you consider cutting off a part of an animal and freezing it as processing, then yes it's processed but don't you do the same with game animals?

People do mistakes like the person on this list and ended up with a trip to the emergency vet because they did not do their homework. It happens.
I don't remember the particular case you are talking about but yes accidents happen. Hospitals and vet's offices are full of accidents every day. Dog's have accidents in countless ways.

Probably because of people like you and Miss Corgi Paws who bash feeds and never once tried the product.
I don't need to try the product. It's a kibble that has never been extruded into the little nugets. Nothing more.

Tell that to the sled dog team that finish the race in good standing. But we all know you think that is a bunch of lies and marketing. That would be the High Competition and Stress Formula, and it is way out of your league.
And there have been dogs that won that race that eat Eukanuba and Purina and other worthless brands. What's your point?
 

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Have you ever read one word of their promotional material you don't believe?
No, I have found everything what they say to be true.

I have a saying that is very true and you should pay attention to it. "Always be wary of information given you by someone who stands to make money off any decision you make based on that information." You should print those words out in big letters, frame it, and hang it on your wall. :smile:
Good words of wisdom. That also includes dog trainers in my book.

I do say so because it's true. That information is readily available if you look other places besided Abady's promotional material.
You mean info like in Orijen "White Paper"? The same company that includes Marigold Flowers and lawn weeds like Dandelions? I know of plenty of companies that preach the carnivore theme, but deliver omnivore nutrition.

I was simply making a point that no one eats a balanced diet every day or even any given day. Besides, what is balance? Who knows? Those that claim to know (and they don't) constantly change the "balance".
Balance is about being properly structured in the diet, everything right and within the correct percentages, all the time.

It's not. I've been feeding my dogs and cats that way for 7 years with no prolbem. They are fine healthy animals.
So are mine. However I am not feeding my cats good nutrition but they supplement their diets very well outdoors. That counts for something and will help reduce the dangers created by the 'nutritional gap' left by omnivore nutrition.


I don't need to try the product. It's a kibble that has never been extruded into the little nugets. Nothing more.
But where is the tomato pomace? Beet Pulp, Apples, Garlic, Yucca, Soy? Dandelions? Berries, Cranberries, blue berries? Beans, oats, broccoli, wheat, barley? sun-cured alfalfa, kelp? Flaxseed, Potatoes?

And there have been dogs that won that race that eat Eukanuba and Purina and other worthless brands. What's your point?
Point is, there is no way dogs can finish the race four paws on the ground with omnivore nutrition. Abady dogs finish in good standing without the necessary supplementation needed to accompany omnivore diets. No musher is going to risk their dogs by feeding more than 25% of the kibble diet regardless of the banner on their backs. They must supplement with meat on the trail, mostly beaver and mink. In other words RFD, they HAVE to cheat to have any hopes of finishing the race. Abady Raw High Stress and Competition and combined with granular high stress formula, is the exclusive diet of the dogs, and finish in good standing with NO supplementation. You are not going to get that out of any kibble, they must be supplemented.
 

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So we can assume it happens frequently because it is a common mistake and not an isloated incident.
If you're refering to tooth damage from giving weight-bearing bones like femurs and knuckles to chew...I would say it's a common mistake. Just as feeding crap food is a common mistake. Pleanty of people trying to do what's best for their dogs buy weight bearing bones from large animals for their pups not knowing the dangers of them. After all, they're on the shelf at the pet store, so they must be okay, right?
Plenty of people know that raw bones, or even the junk bones at wal mart have tooth and gum benefits, or they buy them to keep the dogs busy during the day, but not as many people know what bones to stay away from and what's ok. Like I said, when I started bones long ago, I was giving femurs and knuckles left and right. Luckily I learned better before having any accidents and switched to ribs, but many aren't informed enough.
Making the change from Pedigree to a quality kibble or even one step further and going raw is a process of learning more and more. Everyone starts somewhere, and for many, weight bearing bones is the start before learning more.

No one jumps into raw without researching a bit first. Someone that knows nothing about dogs and their nutritional needs is going to pic one up at the shelter, take it home, and just start giving raw meats. I'll hand it to you that you do have to know a thing or two before feeding prey model, but it's really not that complicated. One afternoon in the raw section will do the trick. I'll also hand it to you that RFD can come off as an arrogent jackass (sorry RFD!) at times, but the fact of the matter is when it comes to prey model raw, he knows it forwards, backwards, and upside down. I can definately appreciate his knowledge and experience to help me make right choices for my dogs, because I am only 20, so I definately don't have 7 years of raw experience and research under my belt. But I ALWAYS use his opinion as suggestion, and continue with my own research and what works for me and more importantly: my dogs.
You know Abady forwards, backwards, and upside down. (at least, you know their promotional material and marketing info) Where you become an unreliable source of information on YOUR diet is that you are so blindsighted by it that you just become a walking billboard, and have nothing but their promotional material to back your opinion. You push their product, and back it up only by their info. Where's the crossreferencing? How do you know any of it is true? How do you know you can trust any of it?
Show me some information that shows the quality of Abady's ingredients, that proves CBPM to be as reliable and nutrient rich as muscle meats that is NOT from Abady themselves.
As for your never-ending "my feed is superior to all" debate, lets let it go. The fact is we all have our own educated opinions on what makes a food great and what doesn't. The purpose of this forum isn't for immature debates between educated individuals with differing opinions (that will never agree, therefore making the discussions pointless). It's for people who are starting to educate themselves to seek opinions, advice, and guidence in making better decisions for their pets from people who have been doing the research for quite some time.
 
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