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Discussion Starter #1
My 8 year old boxer started skipping meals and losing her appetite for about a month this started in March/April. After a visit to the vet and nothing physically wrong with Cookie we assumed she was being finicky about her kibble. At that time she was given her yearly shots and after that day she did not eat anything for about 4 days and started with vomitting and diarrhea. After $1200 in bloodwork and utrasound we still have not found the cause, we are treating with meds for IBD but Vet says could also be lymphosarcoma and only way to confirm is with endoscopy which I can not afford at this time ($800-$900).

Long story short, she is now on Pred, Metronadizole, and started today on Imuran. Her diarrhea is better but she has no appetite. She will not have anything to do with chicken and rice (vet recommended bland diet) and just to get her to eat I have started making boiled burger meat. Last night while fixing her dinner I noticed she was interested in and ate the raw burger with an appetite I had not seen in her for a while. So I gave her some raw meat with the I/D kibble which she threw up. The food came back up totally undigested in the middle of the night (no stomach fluids or anything else with it almost looked like I had just put it in her bowl).

She drinks well and the Pred should also increase appetite but this morning she will not look at the burger meat (raw or cooked). I did not even try to add any kibble in it because I could tell she was feeling very sick.

To post pictures of her would bring tears, but to say the least she is very skinny and although the meds seem to control her symptoms I just can't manage to get her to eat. I think raw diet may be the answer but need tips on how to get such a sick picky dog to make the transition.

I have two questions for experienced raw feeder or owners of IBD pets.

1. could it be that raw burger has too much fat? what other meats should I start with or are organs more easily digestable ?

2. Could it be the Imuran causing the inappetence, would you recommend the raw diet and only add the Imuran back in after that. She seemed to be doing pretty well on the PRed and Metranodizale but when we tried to reduce the Pred she had rebounded to vomitting and diarrhea and that is why we are trying Imuran now as well.

Any suggestions are appreciated.
 

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I would say that a raw diet would be the savior to this dog. It also might be that she really does have some form of cancer that is making her feel ill all the time which is heartbreaking but a possibility. At this point getting her to eat anything is important. This might mean cooking meat for her for a while til she gets her strength back.

It's also a very good possibility that the raw burger was just too fatty for her. But it is also a possibility that the mixture of raw and kibble in the same meal upset her tummy, which is very common. Beef is a very rich meat as well, and typically isn't added into a raw diet until several months in.

So I would try giving her cooked chicken that is seasoned with spices and see if she will take it. Then cut back on cooking and seasoning it until it's more and more raw. Then try adding in bone in pieces of chicken. You might at first have to help her out with the bone by whacking it with a hammer a bit or grinding it. Feeding just cooked chicken is not a balanced and complete diet, they need the nutrition from raw bones as well as organ meats (but let's not worry about those for a long time).

I wouldn't stop any of the medications your vet gave to you. But I'm curious why your vet is prescribing an immunosupressant?
 

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Things may be turning around for my girl, we went from explosive watery diarrhea 3-4x day to only one mushy cowpatty today. I took your advice and kept her on the meds, and basically spoiled her by given her whatever she wants wihch yesterday was a handful of kibble, half a can of z/d, 3 chicken wings and the meat from two chicken quarters (raw). I offered the cooked meat and rice, and also sweet potatoes and raw ground turkey, and cottage cheese but she did not pay attention to any of them. I will continue on the z/d, raw chicken, and free feed the kibble and see how we do on that program.

What is the recommendation with eggs, would it be a concern with IBD / allergies ?

My neighbor suggested cooking it with some veggies in it (rice, potatoes, peas, carrots) or is it better to go raw with that as well ? During our easter egg hunt she did enjoy a boiled egg with egg shell and all.... would the calcium in the shell help bind her stools or is it considered an allergy food ? Thanks for your help, I really hope in time we can become a "raw diet" success story.
 

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So she did eat the raw bone in chicken without a problem? If so I would stick to that and leave *everything* else out. With IBD dogs, limited ingredient diets is the best way to go, since then you know exactly what is going into their system and how to eliminate things if you see a problem.

I wouldn't suggest adding any raw veggies to your dog's diet because she doesn't have the capacity to be able to digest them and most likely this will cause more digestive upset than provide nutrition. If you must add veggies to her diet, you will have to cook the heck out of them, puree them or mash them for them to be of any use to her. Dogs are not meant to eat these things, they can't digest them in their natural state. Vegetables are not a requirement for dogs to survive. None of my dogs have had any veggies for years and they are as healthy as can be.

If she doesn't eat bone in chicken you will be required to add some kind of carbohydrate/fiber source to her diet. She needs something to add bulk to her stool or all you will see is diarrhea. Raw bones provide tons more nutrition AND bind stool to create ideal bowel movements. Carbohydrates (rice, potatoes, corn, etc) are irritants and do not provide much in the way of nutrition EXCEPT adding fiber/bulk to your dog's stool. If you do choose to add in a carb source I would suggest white rice, because it is less irritating to your dog's digestive tract and is more digestable than the others.

Whole eggs are a great source of well rounded nutrition. I wouldn't feed more than one egg per day though. Egg shells are a great source of calcium as well as other essential minerals. You can feed them raw or cooked, raw being better nutritionally.

I'm glad to hear that she is already doing a bit better. Keep us updated on her progress and don't hesitate to ask questions about anything.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Cookie is still in good spirits but now turning her nose up at the z/d food as well, and I think the cooked chicken and rice definitely gives her runnier stools.

I gave her chicken necks last night and cooked chicken and rice and she had pudding like poops followed by runny diarrhea. I'm going to cut out the rice all together. I picked up chicken backs and chicken necks and may just go full raw starting today.

Should I start with backs or consider just the necks for now since they clean up and seem much leaner than the backs. I'm removing all skin and fat I can get out, since this food will be leaner do I still follow the guideline of feeding 2% body weight ?

She is so skinny now, maybe 40-45lbs that a pound of food seems like too little. What do you think ? I don't want to rush her and cause more problems but I don't want to starve her she is too thin already.
 

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Should I start with backs or consider just the necks for now since they clean up and seem much leaner than the backs.
I would start with backs because they are bonier. You want a lot of bone at this point.

I'm removing all skin and fat I can get out, since this food will be leaner do I still follow the guideline of feeding 2% body weight ?
Yes

She is so skinny now, maybe 40-45lbs that a pound of food seems like too little. What do you think ?
Over feeding can cause digestive upset and that is what we are trying to avoid so I would stick to the smaller portions for now until things get straightened out. Once she is good, you can up the amount you feed. A few weeks on 2% won't hurt even a thin dog.
 

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From my notes on IBD:

"Inflammatory Bowel Disease is not a digestive disorder but rather a physical one. The oxidative damage to the intestinal wall affects an increase in intestinal motility resulting in diarrhea and vomiting. Steroids, anti-diarrhea pharmaceuticals, antibiotics, digestive enzymes will offer only temporary relief. Successful treatment can only be accomplished by healing the damaged intestinal wall."

There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.
 

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OR just feeding Meat, bones, and organs by themselves will take care of the problem. Nothing else needed. I've seen it happen many times. You see, the digestive tract was designed to digest meat, bones, and organs. Anything else just puts a strain on it. Taking the strain off eliminates the problem.
 

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IBD is a condition that is highly multifactorial. Not only does diet play a major role but also temperament and disposition. Nervous and skittish dogs are more prone to getting IBD.

The best way to combat this disorder is to get the dog on a highly restrictive diet, meat, bone and organ only are ideal and keep that consistent until no symptoms are seen. One must also provide to the best of their ability a stable and stress free environment. Stress is one of the leading causes that create flare ups. You could be doing a strict, highly restrictive diet and just change the dog's environment and see episodes of digestive upset. Granted this is subjective and case by case, some dogs are worse than others and it takes them longer to repair damage of the intestinal tract. Inflammation and irritation over long periods of time degrade function of the intestines and this is something that doesn't happen over night. It can take weeks or months.

There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.
Maybe state what those might be? That would be helpful to the OP.
 

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From my notes on IBD:

"Inflammatory Bowel Disease is not a digestive disorder but rather a physical one. The oxidative damage to the intestinal wall affects an increase in intestinal motility resulting in diarrhea and vomiting. Steroids, anti-diarrhea pharmaceuticals, antibiotics, digestive enzymes will offer only temporary relief. Successful treatment can only be accomplished by healing the damaged intestinal wall."

There are some antioxidants/vitamins that should help in the healing process.
How funny... from "your" notes? :rolleyes:

It's copied word for word from this sales page
Orthomolecular Specialties ? New Concepts in Pet Health Care - Alternative Pet Health Care :rolleyes:

Nice try though Doc

Maybe state what those might be? That would be helpful to the OP.
They're probably contained in the supplement being sold on the page he got his "notes" from :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'm banking on the raw food but will consider supplementing. Based on what I have learned online regarding IBD in dogs I have started supplementing with L-glutamine for the inflamation and used slippery elm tincture as well as a homeopathic blend for upset stomach all with minimal improvement. I picked up refills on her meds and her vet told me he was looking into the options for adding vitamins not sure if B12, folate or along those lines. He is reserved in his prognosis since Cookie has been so slow to respond to the current meds.

I mentioned to him that I've chosen to raw feed and he warned about the salmonella and other bacteria and using caution with my kids but he did not protest too much since even he is running out of options.

If anyone else has had good success with IBD and raw fed alone and/or with specific supplements I would welcome the additional information.
 

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How funny... from "your" notes? :rolleyes:

It's copied word for word from this sales page
Orthomolecular Specialties ? New Concepts in Pet Health Care - Alternative Pet Health Care :rolleyes:

Nice try though Doc


They're probably contained in the supplement being sold on the page he got his "notes" from :biggrin:
They are in my notes. I put them in quotes. Which is the appropriate way of stating someone else words. I did not state they were my words. Besides, if they were they would not be in quotes. English 101 - Harbrace College Handbook. Or did you forget that?

Nice try jakwood
 

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Doc...do you work for this company or something? :confused: This company that you pulled the quote from also makes Mega-C which I believe you were talking about in another thread.
 

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They are in my notes. I put them in quotes. Which is the appropriate way of stating someone else words. I did not state they were my words. Besides, if they were they would not be in quotes. English 101 - Harbrace College Handbook. Or did you forget that?

Nice try jakwood
When you say "this is from MY notes" you imply that they are YOUR words. Putting them in quotes in the context you used made it seem that you were just quoting your notes, not someone elses words. If you copy word for word someone elses words you HAVE to reference it or at least state where you got the information from or it can be considered plagarism.

On another note, I tend to be skeptical of claims that someone states when they are trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to tell you it works, how else would they make money? Unless they have proof that their product works I'm skpetical to believe what the company says based completely off of a marketing pitch. I'm certainly not saying this product doesn't work, I didn't read anything about it or research it.

Boxermom- I have known many people with IBD dogs have wonderful success with switching to raw, many of the members here can attest to that. The member CorgiPaws was in your same shoes with one of her dogs. Constant diarrhea and digestive issues. Her vet finally just said that her dog had an intolerance to carbohydrates. So his fix was a carb ridden expensive RX diet, lifelong drug therapy with steroids and antibiotics. She was smart enough to see that the real solution to the problem was to eliminate all carbs from his
diet. She switched him to raw and he hasn't had an issue since. I believe she switched him about 9 months ago or so. I'm sure she could tell her story a lot better than I did. Grissom her dog was our poster child for the success of raw feeding!
 

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Is this an acedemic exercise? If so I'll gladely refence the book - not web-site - where this information - which is contained in quotes as needed when they are someone elses words. I have not implied anything danemamma, This information came from note, notes I have been tking for years and are in even in quotes in my notes; meaning that they are someone eles words not mine. If they were my words, they would not be in quotes. Is the question here about IBD or how to reference something in a public forum? You make the call, as you always do, and I guess the rest of us will have to follow your rules or be placed in front of your firing squad.

I do not work for any company in the pet industry. I read everything I can find on a particular subject - particularly diseases and nutrition. Dogs may do well with their IBD on a raw diet but some folks do not feed raw so I offered a viable alternative. If that isn't needed, why ask the question if everything can be cured by a raw diet?

Danamomma, if IBD is mutifactorial as you claim in one of your post, I would like to see the study you pulled that information from. Or at least a reference to it.

If we are to quote references, I would prefer the APA style.

When you say "this is from MY notes" you imply that they are YOUR words. Putting them in quotes in the context you used made it seem that you were just quoting your notes, not someone elses words. If you copy word for word someone elses words you HAVE to reference it or at least state where you got the information from or it can be considered plagarism.

On another note, I tend to be skeptical of claims that someone states when they are trying to sell a product. Of course they are going to tell you it works, how else would they make money? Unless they have proof that their product works I'm skpetical to believe what the company says based completely off of a marketing pitch. I'm certainly not saying this product doesn't work, I didn't read anything about it or research it.

Boxermom- I have known many people with IBD dogs have wonderful success with switching to raw, many of the members here can attest to that. The member CorgiPaws was in your same shoes with one of her dogs. Constant diarrhea and digestive issues. Her vet finally just said that her dog had an intolerance to carbohydrates. So his fix was a carb ridden expensive RX diet, lifelong drug therapy with steroids and antibiotics. She was smart enough to see that the real solution to the problem was to eliminate all carbs from his
diet. She switched him to raw and he hasn't had an issue since. I believe she switched him about 9 months ago or so. I'm sure she could tell her story a lot better than I did. Grissom her dog was our poster child for the success of raw feeding!
 

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Doc...do you work for this company or something? :confused: This company that you pulled the quote from also makes Mega-C which I believe you were talking about in another thread.
No I do not. And I do not use Mega C on my dogs. There are other products on the market that are similar but the Mega C has scientific data backing it up. That is only reason I mentioned a brand name.
 

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Doc, the only reason I responded was because I found it strange that you posted text word for word off of a website and I got the impression from your post that these were your words. You certainly don't have to reference every little thing. Just found it curious, that's all.


Funnily enough what I stated about IBD I learned from a CE class at a Purina seminar a few weeks ago. I posted the notes that I took from the lecture up on here afterwards. Here's the link to my notes:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/3004-seminar-notes.html
 

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Doc, the only reason I responded was because I found it strange that you posted text word for word off of a website and I got the impression from your post that these were your words. You certainly don't have to reference every little thing. Just found it curious, that's all.


Funnily enough what I stated about IBD I learned from a CE class at a Purina seminar a few weeks ago. I posted the notes that I took from the lecture up on here afterwards. Here's the link to my notes:

http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/general-dog-discussion/3004-seminar-notes.html
Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading your information. Perhaps the web-site used the same information from the book the quote came from? The book was first published in 1981 then again in '93.

How was the Purina seminar? Sometimes the information is very good until they start pushiing their products!
 

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Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading your information. Perhaps the web-site used the same information from the book the quote came from? The book was first published in 1981 then again in '93.

How was the Purina seminar? Sometimes the information is very good until they start pushiing their products!
I was skeptical of going because I didn't want it to be a full day of Purina pushers shoving their product down my throat. But I was pleasantly surprised. There were several key note speakers on several different topics, one of them being IBD. I learned a ton that day all things considered. If anything it just further reinforced why I feed raw. During the lunch break the vets at my table started a raw bashing fest and it was pathetic how little they knew about it but how willing they were to bash it. It's like vets that know nothing of raw dislike those people who feed it because they feel we know nothing about nutrition, but by bashing raw they are just hypocritical because they know nothing about raw. Irritating and frustrating. You'd think people intelligent enough to be a vet would be smart enough to put two and two together and realize that raw is the best and healthiest thing to feed. Oh well. I respect the knowledge they do have in regards to healthcare and medical issues. And contrary to popular belief vets really do care for the well being of their patients and not just the bottom line.

As far as the quote, I'm sure it was taken from the book and put on the website. But I'm not too worried about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I was on a day long trip yesterday, and because the Prednisone calls for more frequent walks I left Cookie with my mom along with her meds and chicken backs. She called me concerned about 6-7 pm that she had walked her a handful of times and never pooped, go figure I get excited when she does'nt go and she gets worried. lol

By the way, the first few times I fed Cookie raw my husband questioned me as to why I was feeding raw and why not just cook it, and I did get a bit defensive and told him that it was better than watching her starve and if that is the only thing she wants then that is what I will feed. No more discussion after that on raw feeding but I guess he noticed all the links and information I was saving on the PC and he started reading up on it. Now whenever our friends and family ask us about Cookie he goes on and on about raw feeding, I think he will try to convert all our friends. Its funny when you figure out things on your own its better then somebody just telling you to do it, I think for him just seeing her appetite for raw that impresses him the most considering how bad she had gotten about eating.

I'm very impressed by the wealth of information being shared in this forum, I do agree that most vets do care for their patients and are sympathetic to owner's feelings but they do not always have all the answers. I don't understand why people react with skepticism to what seems like a common sense approach to feeding, I dont get it... danemama, awesome that you make it to the seminars I'll check out your notes later.
 
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