Dog Food Chat banner

1 - 20 of 124 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,009 Posts
Prong collar because they are very useful training tools, when used correctly.
Why are they bad?
You can not use a torture device "correctly" on a dog in the name of training. I'll leave this subject alone for now, it makes me angry.

My dogs only wear collars when they go anywhere, but they're nekkid at home. I don't like collars. But they each have their own coordinating set. If I buy a new collar, they have to have a matching leash too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
You can not use a torture device "correctly" on a dog in the name of training. I'll leave this subject alone for now, it makes me angry.

My dogs only wear collars when they go anywhere, but they're nekkid at home. I don't like collars. But they each have their own coordinating set. If I buy a new collar, they have to have a matching leash too.

I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.
They certainly aren't positive reinforcement by any stretch of the imagination. Any good trainer has no need for such a "tool". I don't even use a collar when I train unless I'm teaching loose leash walking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
They certainly aren't positive reinforcement by any stretch of the imagination. Any good trainer has no need for such a "tool". I don't even use a collar when I train unless I'm teaching loose leash walking.
I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
Works fantastic for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
Works fantastic for me.
You can beat him with a hose also but it doesn't mean its the right thing to do. You should try only positive reinforcement. You will be amazed. There are better ways than "correcting". Teaching is a far superior method.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,128 Posts
I don't think they are torture at all; my dog is excited when I get his out. But to each their own I guess.
The people who use training tools like this one are those who don't think that they are "torture" devices. They are also ones that use negative reinforcement because they haven't learned that training can be done with nothing but positive reinforcement. Dogs learn faster and better with nothing but positive interactions.

I don't do only positive reinforcement. If my dog does something undesirable he is corrected, which isn't positive reinforcement (I don't think; I haven't really read up on it). I guess that is another reason I use them.
Works fantastic for me.
Punishment is not positive reinforcement, you are correct in this. Punishment is something that is undesirable that happens to a dog when he doesn't do the right thing. This can be yelling or some kind of physical cue, whatever it is and no matter how "small" or "innocent" it might seem. Negative punishment is negative punishment.

If your dog doesn't do the right thing, the best thing you can do is not give him positive reinforcement or in other words ignore the undesired action. This is all that needs to be done for it to be corrected. I would read up on more use of positive reinforcement and get rid of your prong collar because you really don't need it. It only works because it hurts the dog whenever he does something you don't like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,359 Posts
A prong collar is a series of large metal links with prongs protruding inwards. When the collar is placed on the pups neck, the prongs sit against the neck of the pup. When you attach the leash to the collar and pull on the leash, it works in a similar way to that of the choke chain, in that the collar contracts and chokes.:frown: The prongs dig into the animal’s flesh and pinch it, forcing the dog to correct its behavior.:frown:

So correcting a dog with this type of collar is not the best choice! Victoria Stillwells show has many great points of training methods other than force and harm. Also The culture Clash great training book.:smile:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,128 Posts
I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed.
The slight "bite" is still a negative interaction with you and the dog. YOU are in no way ANYTHING like a motherdog to the dog in training. The dog does NOT see you as a mothering figure. It see's you as a threat, nothing more. Lets remember here that humans are not dogs, and dogs are not EVER going to think that you are a dog, so don't try and act like one. There are body language cues that dogs can pick up on, but these are non abrasive in any way and work across species...a little something called calming signals. End of story.

When the collar "bites" them it teaches them that they get pinched or hurt when they do a certain action hence the steep learning curve. Punishment trains dogs very quickly because they don't like to be hurt so they avoid confrontation as much as possible. Doesn't matter how slight the "bite" is to the animal, its still a negative interaction no matter how you describe it.

Positive reinforcement is the only way to go that you will gain full trust of the dog and be in full respect of the dog. If you resort to using negative training tools like a prong collar you are nothing more than a bully to a dog. Nothing more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works. It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself. If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,128 Posts
Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works.
If this was a "real" life situation, I would think the trainer unexperienced to see that this situation is one, if not, MANY steps too far past the dog's ability to concentrate. You have to take baby steps and work slowly with a dog. A dog like this one takes LOTS and LOTS of work. You cannot take an aggressive dog like this one and stick into a situation just arbitrarily and expect it to do what you want. And I find it especially harmful to use AGGRESSIVE methods on an already AGGRESSIVE dog. Its like feeding the fire!

It might take 2 weeks to get a dog like this one to even begin to trust you, but at least you are gaining its respect instead of bullying it. But lets remember that most people are too impatient to use positive methods.

It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself.
It's great that you have been in training for 12 years, but the methods that you condone tell me that you are outdated in your practices. A person with one year of experience using nothing but positive reinforcement is more qualified in my book. There are better methods out there than coercing a dog to do what you want.


If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying
I don't have issues with people having their own opinions, but I don't like it when people advertise inappropriate methods and recommend using things like prong collars. Like I have said earlier, there are better and more effective ways to train a dog other than pain and coercion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
96 Posts
I don't recall saying what methods I use I actually just said I have learned alot of different methods and studied a lot. But then again every thread I comment on people put words in my mouth won't post on any of the threads here anymore and won't recommend anyone else does either. Maybe there's a reason that there aren't very many people here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,128 Posts
If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate. A prong collar actually gives the dog a soft bite just like a mother corrects her puppies. And I know because I have tried it on myself. Like any collar if used the wrong way it can harm. I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different. You know your dog and know yourself. No other comment needed.
Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works. It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that. You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training. There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself. If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do. Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs. I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying
I don't recall saying what methods I use I actually just said I have learned alot of different methods and studied a lot. But then again every thread I comment on people put words in my mouth won't post on any of the threads here anymore and won't recommend anyone else does either. Maybe there's a reason that there aren't very many people here.
Looking at your two previous posts in this thread, I would have pretty high confidence in saying that you at least suggest using them to others if not use them personally. And if you use prong collars, I am also confident in the assumption you use other negative reinforcement training methods. Just what I'm gathering from what you say about training. If you have been to all sorts of training schools and classes I would hope that you would find that all negative training methods are unnecessary and outdated.

You are the one choosing not to post anymore, for your own reasons whatever they might be. We all have different ways of seeing things but that is no reason to get upset about anything. Just means that we agree to disagree. There are not a lot of people on this forum because it is still relatively new in the grand scheme of things. Most of the larger forums out there have been around 10 years. This particular forum is a year and a half old. I would say that we are doing quite well!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,009 Posts
I'm going to only say this once and it's not to get people fired up. If your a good dog trainer you learn all methods of training and how all collars in general work.
We all know how they work, that does not make them okay to use. I know how a whip works too, does that mean I'm about to bust one out next time one of my dogs steps out of line? No! Why? I don't abuse in the name of training.

. Every dog is different and people too and in some instances with certain cases those collars are appropriate.
Every kid is different, too, maybe parents should abuse as they see necessary.

I'm not saying eveyone go but one and use one, or that positve doesn't work as well, but if that collar works don't let people tell you different.
Abuse works, too. Downright smacking or kicking a dog will keep him in line real fast. Does that mean it's okay? NO. That does nothing for the relationship and bond, and only intimidates the dog into submission. I like to think the quality of life for my dogs is a bit better than that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,419 Posts
Hhhmm so you think every situation can be solved by positive you try it with a red zone aggressive dog that wants to rip another dog or person to shreds or has and let's see if hanging food and praising the dog or ignoring it works.
Yes, if you are a first rate trainer and know what you are doing.

It's doesn't work in all cases I'm a professional dog trainer and have been for over twelves years and have studied and been to many seminars on every type of training method and I have no problem saying that.
I was a professional trainer for 15 years and trained not only dogs but many wild animals. I have trained animals who had no intent or desire to please me or be my friend. Killing me was the top priority on their mind.

I too have studied in many seminars and with many top notch professional trainers. I have used pinch collars and choke chains. I have jerked and pulled dogs all over town. That was before I learned how to train effectively using 100% positive methods.

You can't always use just one method of training it's not just the dog or the person your training.
Assuming the animal isn't brain damaged, any animal can be trained (I prefer the term "teach") using only positive reinforcement IF the trainer is competent. I have seen anything from rhino's to gorillas to elephants to lions and tigers and many other so called dangerous animals trained this way.

There are so many different options available and if your smart you read up and know all of them otherwise you limit yourself.
I know them all by experience but it is down right cruel to use pain to get an animal to perform a behavior you wish if you can get the same behavior without pain. If you are competent with that species, you can.

If you don't agree with it don't get on other people who do.
Well, I do. When I see someone using pain it is showing me that the animal is smarter than the trainer and the trainer has no other way to control the animal, whatever species the animal happens to be.

Because you have no idea what their situation is or their dogs.
Don't need to know. If they are using pain, they are wrong and/or ignorant. One or the other. If ignorant they need to get educated. The days of the compulsive trainer are quckly coming to an end. There are fewer and fewer of them every day. The end won't come too soon for me.

I don't have a problem with opinion but don't tell someone you don't need it because you really don't know. State your preference that's all I'm saying
I do know and you don't need it. EVER! If you think you need it, so some research and/or ask for help.

As you can tell, I don't have a lot of patience with trainers who still insist on using aversive methods in todays world.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,068 Posts
Ironic, but we just had a dog in at the clinic who had an abscess on the back of her neck from her prong collar breaking the skin.
 
1 - 20 of 124 Posts
Top