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I have some nice beef ribs I could make stock with and freeze what I don't use....maybe between that and a bit of wet dog food, that would get the moisture into her diet....Thank you ladies!!
i keep chicken stock and pedialyte and beef stock for that very reason.

when i want them to drink more, i just add it to their water.

thankfully, my kids don't have struvites or urate crystals....so i have nothing else to offer, other than keep them wet, and test, give them appropriate high quality foods. i can't wrap my head around science diet. sorry.
 

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i will agree that label reading is a fine art. and it can be deceptive when 'meat' is listed as the first ingredient.

on the other hand, dogs do make vitamin C, unlike humans.

and, just as humans can tax certain organs by eating crappy food because there is a difference between whole grain and processed grain, dogs will also have a problem trying to process what i call processed grains.

the very act of making kibble is a process by its very definition.

there is no way that i will ever accept, either scientifically or anecdotally, that processing is a good thing.

i have seen dog food made.....and let's forget about the other things that manufacturers let slip by. it's not germane.

what is germane is taking a product, such as a chicken and breaking it down to a pink slush. it is no longer chicken.

why not feed a dog the whole food, rather than a sum of its parts?

i do not believe we are better off picking and choosing ingredients. i do believe we are better off giving our dogs food that is in its natural form, whether vegetables and whole grains are used or not.

a complex carb is no longer complex once it's processed.

so eat zucchini and leave the zucchini bread behind. and give your dog suitable food. i realise there are people who believe in veggies and fruits and grains and whole proteins...and their dogs seem to do fine. i belong to a balkan forum and dairy products, veggies and fruits are fed, along with raw proteins. they have done this for many generations.

feed a dog a diet suitable for the dog with whole nutrition.....not just that which can be added back in because the extrusion process eliminated any nutrition there might have been.

if nutrients need to go back in ....then the point is missed.
 

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well, I look further than protein and carb amounts, and looking at the first five ingredients is no different than looking at the first one ingredient. The ingredient source doesn't matter. The nutrients it provides do. I look at nutrient parameters, who formulates the diet, clinical trials, quality control measures, and how tailored a diet is to a specific patient's nutritional needs. so let's agree to disagree.

There are lots of externally funded studies, as well as peer reviewed studies, in use by lots of companies that actually care about proving efficacy instead of riding the 'grain free' bandwagon or whatever the fad of the year is. You can make a study say anything you want by 'stacking the deck' for lack of a better analogy, but if it's peer reviewed it gets torn apart.
which is part of the reason i no longer 'go' by studies. one day coffee is good. next day it's bad. eggs have been vilified and glorified.

a whole egg provides all kinds of nutrients. eggbusters or whatever they are called do not. and, one must add in the either natural or not natural preservatives, which, over time can also do damage.

a whole chicken provides all the nutrients it has.
a whole vegetable provides all the nutrients it has.
a whole grain, same thing.

one does not have to look beyond to see that a dog with a problem needs a different nutritional panel than a dog without the problem.

and it's fairly easy to give said dog the nutrition needed by using whole foods, not the sums of its parts.

i do agree with this statement you're making:
I look at nutrient parameters, who formulates the diet, clinical trials, quality control measures, and how tailored a diet is to a specific patient's nutritional needs
but we shall also have to agree to disagree about which form of food is fed, especially the quality control part.
 

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I'm glad it was helpful :)
A filler, by definition, has no nutritional value. Corn is full of beneficial nutrients, and is highly digestible, not a filler.
As for sawdust, I'm assuming you're talking about cellulose. It's true, cellulose comes from a plant cell wall, which may (or may not, depending on the company) include wood, but again, it's not a filler, it's an insoluble fibre broken down into teeny tiny bits. It doesn't supply energy or vitamins or minerals, but insoluble fibre is important for digestive health, someone in another thread was talking about how important it insoluble fibre is for natural exfoliation of intestinal cells, it also promotes peristalsis, and can help 'bulk up' stools if there is fibre responsive colitis, anal gland issues, or if you have an animal on a weight loss program and they're hungry, it can help to make them feel more full. There are lots of different sources of insoluble fibre, cellulose is just one of them.
i recognise the importance of cellulose for humans....and now that vegetables and whole grains are so expensive, i can now comfortably eat sawdust for fibre. and, i can feed it to my dogs to give their stools bulk and keep that peristalsis going....

you're kidding, right? that was for humour...yes?

please tell me i'm speaking out of context...because if a company uses sawdust and puts it in their foods for animals....i kind of think that proves my statement that processed foods are poorly suitable for man and beast.
 

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uh, I didn't say you should put sawdust in food. I think you misinterpreted what I said, and looking back at what I wrote maybe I stated it unclearly......cellulose is an insoluble fibre that is sourced from a plant cell wall. Because sawdust comes from wood, the cells that make up sawdust CONTAIN cellulose. Just like the cells of every plant material on the planet. So companies that don't use cellulose started spreading rumors that companies that DO use cellulose are putting sawdust in their food. Using cellulose in a diet is not the same as putting sawdust in a diet.

NEW TRAIN OF THOUGHT: the benefits of insoluble fibre such as cellulose include: aid in the natural exfoliation of intestinal cells, promotes peristalsis, and can help 'bulk up' stools if there is fibre responsive colitis, anal gland issues, or if you have an animal on a weight loss program and they're hungry, it can help to make them feel more full. You cannot substitute fibre for vegetables and whole grains. Fibre is not digestible. Vegetables and whole grains are digestible and provide a plethora of beneficial nutrients to the body.

Is that better?
It's true, cellulose comes from a plant cell wall, which may (or may not, depending on the company) include wood, but again, it's not a filler, it's an insoluble fibre broken down into teeny tiny bits. It doesn't supply energy or vitamins or minerals, but insoluble fibre is important for digestive health, someone in another thread was talking about how important it insoluble fibre is for natural exfoliation of intestinal cells, it also promotes peristalsis, and can help 'bulk up' stools if there is fibre responsive colitis, anal gland issues,

you can see how one would be confused by the words bolded....and i was kind of injecting a little humour into this very serious discussion.

unfortunately, what you say is true. there is sawdust in certain dog foods that are processed.

so, we can talk about what dogs need until the cows come home and i will absolutely agree or agree to disagree if vegetables and fruits and grains are included in what you think dogs need.

however, i have serious doubts about conditions at these manufacturing plants.....these are not rumours.

with e.coli running rampant in human food, salmonella not a stranger to bags of kibble, surely you can understand why many of us would rather be in control of what we and our dogs eat.

surely you can understand that i would not feed my family food from a box, nor would i feed a dog food out of a bag, regardless of the ingredients.

i see the problem, not in trying to quantify and qualify all of the ingredients in dog food and what they can and can't do or will or will not do for your dog.

trials and panels mean nothing if the food is no longer recognised as food.

eating enriched flour contributes to diabetes. eating kibble does too.

we have become a nation of separateness......defining an ingredient for what it does to benefit our dogs, rather than look at the entire nutrient panel of a whole food for the benefit of our animal.

feed whole prey. feed prey model. feed barf. what they have in common is that chicken looks like chicken, veggies are broken down so the cellulose wall is broken not eliminated for digestion....fruits i won't comment on...and grains well, if you must.

but feed the real food. that's what i'm saying. all the studies in the world touting a certain vitamin cannot cannot cannot replace the real deal.
 
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