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Discussion Starter #1
I am trying to be honest on the frontside. I have worked for over 25 years on animal nutrition and have some entrenched ideas about what is best for dogs and cats.
I am now the CEO of a company that formulates healthy dog food supplements and am asking for your help. I want to formulate a product for the raw ingredient feeding community but I do not want to approach this market with information from only one side.
I consider your website one that has portrayed immense passion on feeding their canines, and I appreciate that passion. I also respect it.
PLEASE let me know something about your philosophy of feeding your most beloved animal and the things that you dislike about current formulations. I want to blend your ideas into our final products and hope you will help me. I consider this an opportunity for both of us, a great opportunity.

Thank You
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
 

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My philosophy:

Dogs need raw meat, bones, and organs. A healthy dog doesn't need anything else.

I have a dog that does get some help due to chronic conditions caused by long term neglect and bad food before I got her. What I have learned from my much smarter friends:

Products that do one thing. I don't give anything that's multi-purpose.
No fillers. One ingredient doesn't mean preservatives or soy also.
Almost anything that can be done artificially can be done naturally.

I took a look at your website and only found one product. The ingredients are:
Stabilized rice bran, soybean meal, corn hominy feed, distillers dried grains, hominy feed, feeding oatmeal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried whey, linseed meal, brewers dried yeast, vegetable oil, fenugreek seed, calcium carbonate, monocalcium carbonate, yeast culture, dicalcium phosphate, anise oil, salt, sulfur, L-lysine, DL-methionine, magnesium amino acid chelate, magnesium oxide, potassium amino acid chelate, potassium chloride, iron oxide, ferrous carbonate, ferrous sulfate, copper amino acid chelate, manganese amino acid chelate, manganous oxide, zinc amino acid chelate, zinc oxide, copper oxide, copper sulfate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, ethylene diamine dihydroiodide, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, choline chloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, folic acid, biotin, lactobacillus plantarium, saccharomyces cerevisiae, streptococcus faecium, lactobacillus casei, lactobacillus acidophilus, amylase, betaglucanase, hemicellulase, protease

I don't feed my dogs soy, or corn. It also looks like you are product stacking with the hominy feed and corn might be the main ingredient. Recognizing that this is a supplement and not a food, I am trying to see the benefit to supplementing with a product like this that contains so many grains and vitamins that dogs are getting already in their food whether it be raw or kibble.

In contrast, here is the ingredients list for Connectin, which I use: Mucopolysaccharides (porcine source of chondroitin sulfate and hyaluronic acid), Yucca Root, Glucosamine HCl 99% (shellfish), Alfalfa Extract 50%, Nettle Leaf, Devil’s Claw Extract 2.5%, Celery Seed, Black Cohosh Root, Ginger Root Extract 5%, Turmeric Extract 95%, Cayenne Pepper [Inactive: Natural porcine liver flavor]

no soy, small grains, I don't like the "natural porcine liver flavor." But I see the purpose for every ingredient but one.
 

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Here's my philosophy......raw meat/bones/organs. Those three contain all a dog needs in variety. I only supplement with fish oil for omegas because I'm not able to feed grass only fed meats and oily fish.
 

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"Stabilized rice bran, soybean meal, corn hominy feed, distillers dried grains, hominy feed, feeding oatmeal, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried whey, linseed meal, brewers dried yeast, vegetable oil, fenugreek seed, calcium carbonate, monocalcium carbonate, yeast culture, dicalcium phosphate, anise oil, salt, sulfur, L-lysine, DL-methionine, magnesium amino acid chelate, magnesium oxide, potassium amino acid chelate, potassium chloride, iron oxide, ferrous carbonate, ferrous sulfate, copper amino acid chelate, manganese amino acid chelate, manganous oxide, zinc amino acid chelate, zinc oxide, copper oxide, copper sulfate, sodium selenite, cobalt carbonate, calcium iodate, ethylene diamine dihydroiodide, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, Vitamin E supplement, niacin supplement, riboflavin supplement, choline chloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, niacin supplement, folic acid, biotin, lactobacillus plantarium, saccharomyces cerevisiae, streptococcus faecium, lactobacillus casei, lactobacillus acidophilus, amylase, betaglucanase, hemicellulase, protease"

I would never feed this to my dog, and I can almost guarantee 100% that no raw feeder would either. The ingredients in this product go against everything we believe in. I bolded the ingredients that are not species appropriate for dogs. There is just a lot of ingredients in this. Overwhelming.

Also, corn and vegetable oil are bad for humans, so I would definitely not feed it to my dogs.
 

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80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs. That's it. Their "veggies" is green tripe. Their bodies don't need any other ingredients so I don't give them. The point is to make their diets as easily digestible as possible, and that means no grains or harmful oils that are going to overwork their bodies. Easy in, easy out.
 

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If we're talking commercial raw formulas, I'm not a fan of some because they are a ground mix, offering no dental benefits, or use high pressure pasteurization (HPP). I prefer simple ingredient formulas with proper amounts of bone, organs, and meat, not much else if possible. I like the less processed commercial raw companies like My Pet Carnivore or Hare Today that pay attention to the quality of meats (antibiotics, hormones, grassfed/grainfed etc.) they use, and offer whole, and course ground options. Options would be nice for Barf or PMR feeders, who prefer to feed their diets differently and different options for whole, course ground and ground for owners who have dogs that can't for one reason or another have the whole bones/meat and dogs that can.
 

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If we're talking commercial raw formulas, I'm not a fan of some because they are a ground mix, offering no dental benefits, or use high pressure pasteurization (HPP). I prefer simple ingredient formulas with proper amounts of bone, organs, and meat, not much else if possible. I like the less processed commercial raw companies like My Pet Carnivore or Hare Today that pay attention to the quality of meats (antibiotics, hormones, grassfed/grainfed etc.) they use, and offer whole, and course ground options. Options would be nice for Barf or PMR feeders, who prefer to feed their diets differently and different options for whole, course ground and ground for owners who have dogs that can't for one reason or another have the whole bones/meat and dogs that can.
This is extremely important. So many styles of raw (PMR vs BARF), and so many different ways of feeding each style (whole prey vs ground). And I LOVE Hare Today. Highly recommended.
 
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I want to formulate a product for the raw ingredient feeding community...
What "product" does the raw feeding community need that isn't covered already by a proper balance of animal protein, fat, and bone? You seem to be insinuating that this diet is lacking in something that dogs require. I'm curious to understand what "deficiency" you are attempting to compensate for with this "product" you want to formulate.
 

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Philosophy:
Keep it simple. Keep it natural.

The dentition, jaw structure and digestive system of Canis lupus familiaris is proof that the ideal diet is raw meat.

Supplements:
When transitioning from manufactured food to PMR some, certainly not all, dogs have a loss of coat condition which has been referred to as detox. Consider reading the messages from magicre in regard to Bubba the Bald where she added various seed, maybe some herbal, combinations. These were mostly late 2011 to early 2012. Look at the coat condition of her dogs now. She is certainly doing it right.

Search this site for messages related to "transition" and "transitioning". You may find useful information as to where a raw feeding supplement could be beneficial. Below is a link with information on transitioning from kibble to a balanced PMR diet.
How to Get Started | Prey Model Raw

I have read, mostly on dogster.com, that some raw fed dogs are lacking 4-6 specific minerals, zinc plus a few others. This could be related to feeding mostly chicken quarters and/or a lack of organ meats. A low cost supplement may appeal to those who are doing the best they can on a limited budget or have a physical limitation that prevents them from standing at a kitchen counter to cut up meat.

There are people who have expressed an interest in raw feeding but cannot obtain or deal with handling a variety of organs. A supplement that includes the nutrients of an array of organs may have potential.

Compare the nutrients in grass fed meat as opposed to factory farmed. If more than Omega 3s are missing a supplement is a possibility.

A supplement that may be of interest would be to compare the nutrients in a more typical PMR diet (chicken, beef, pork, venison, rabbit, occasional tripe) to a diet with a wide ranging variety and cuts of meats. Are nutrients being missed by not feeding brains, eyeballs, testicles or gullet? Again, look at what magicre is feeding. She has done the research and has a wealth of knowledge. To me, she and her dogs are the pinnacle of raw feeding.

Pics and discussion of raw fed diets:
http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/5504-raw-picture-thread.html
Raw Feeders: Please post typical weekly menu

When promoting your product do not make it a negative campaign. Do not make it appear as if a balanced raw diet with a variety of meats and organs is lacking. Present a transition/detox supplement as time limited, 3 months to a year, which may be beneficial while the negative effects of kibble leave the body. For a supplement such as organ nutrients, present it as a helpful aid for those who cannot obtain an assortment of organ meats or cannot deal with them. Same with nutrients for those who do not have a vast array of meat sources, a readily available enhancement to the biologically appropriate way of feeding.

Many, if not most, raw feeders are label readers. We want to know what is going into our dogs. A supplement of traditional chemicals and fillers will not appeal to raw feeders. Avoid GMO ingredients as much as possible. Certified human grade by a legitimate, documented source would be an advantage. Rather than rattle off a long list of objectionable ingredients I suggest reading dogfoodadvisor reviews where controversial and known harmful ingredients are noted in red. There may also be some information in the Library section.
Dog Food Reviews and Ratings | Dog Food Advisor

There is no excuse for poor customer service or secrecy. Be prepared to reveal the source of the ingredients. Stating they are obtained from a US distributor, yet your company does not know the source is not acceptable. If an ingredient is manufactured in China with US personnel supervising the process say so in the FAQ. If an ingredient is manufactured in China but packaged in France provide the info before being asked. Using "proprietary information" as an answer does not work as a competitor has the resources to analyze the product to determine the formulation, or darn close to it. Telling me something I may not like will get a more favorable response than attempting to hide information.
 

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A Dog Feeding Guide for a Healthier Pooch
To maintain your dog’s good health, it’s crucial that you feed him a well-balanced diet. It’s likewise important to give him the right amount of food on a daily basis. There’s a wide variety of dog foods available today, so some dog owners can have a difficulty choosing which variety is the best choice for their pet. A dog feeding guide can help you make the right decision.

There are definite dietary nutrients that a dog can’t do without – protein, carbohydrates, fat, vitamins and minerals, fiber and water. With these nutrients, along with your dog’s age, lifestyle and health, you’ll be able to decide the most suitable diet for your dog.

How Much to Feed Your Dog?

This will depend on your pooch’s size, activity level, nature, age and even the temperature of his surroundings.

dog weight guide

[image source]

All dog foods have feeding guidelines on the packaging. You should always start by following the guidelines for your dog’s weight. Your vet will be able to tell you your dog’s weight or you can stand on the scales whilst carrying your dog to calculate it at home. [source]

Wagg, a dog food manufacturer, posted a canine feeding guide on their website.

Feeding Guide for Puppy Food

dog feeding guide

[image source]

Feeding Guide for Adult Dog

dog feeding guide

[image source]

Ultimately, your vet will advise you on the ideal weight for your dog. Your mission is to make sure he stays at it.
Do you think this article is a good
feeding guide for dogs?
 

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"There are definite dietary nutrients that a dog can’t do without – protein, carbohydrates, fat, vitamins and minerals, fiber and water"

Considering dogs don't need fiber or carbohydrates, I'd say I wouldn't pay much attention to anything in the article.
 

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Actually, meat does contain some carbohydrates-- since herbivores eat plants, which is all carbohydrate-- there will be residual carbohydrates in the meat-- which is in a form that dogs can more readily use and access, than if we feed them fruits, veggies, and grains.

Also, meat (muscle) is comprised of muscle "fibers"-- yes, usually when we people talk about fiber, we are talking about plant fiber, which is what we humans require for a healthy intestine. However, dog intestines are different, and so they utilize a different form of fiber. This is not to say they don't need any fiber at all, but that they need a different type of fiber-- the type that comprises muscle meat and bone. (bone tissue is made up of "fibers" also).

I hope that makes sense, and that FBarnes does not feel attacked. You are not wrong; you just forgot the micro-components of meat. (wink)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
The product that is on my site is not the one I am formulating. Many times when formulating supplement products companies use carriers and when you buy and include micro ingredients, they are mixed with carriers because the actual active ingredients have such small inclusion rates. For instance, the product that has some hominy also includes whey which is a very good source of milk protein, anise, which is used as a flavoring agent(instead of artificial flavoring, fennegrek, which is healthy and has a calming effect on animals.
What I am looking for from readers is feedback on their products used and what they like and don't like which you certainly did and I appreciate it.
The new product will be designed for raw and heavy meat feeders and will be used to balance out deficiencies in meat diets like calcium, phosphorus, copper, and zinc which is in very low amounts in raw meats and organs.
I too am a raw meat feeder but I also recognize the long term effects of deficiencies in major minerals(cal., phos., mag.) and trace minerals(cu, zn, mn) They can have long term effects on a dog's health in which there are no symptoms until damage is done.
Again, thank you very much for taking the time to answer me.
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
 

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The product that is on my site is not the one I am formulating. Many times when formulating supplement products companies use carriers and when you buy and include micro ingredients, they are mixed with carriers because the actual active ingredients have such small inclusion rates. For instance, the product that has some hominy also includes whey which is a very good source of milk protein, annise, which is used as a flavoring agent(instead of artificial flavoring, fennegrek, which is healthy and has a calming effect on animals.
What I am looking for from readers is feedback on their products used and what they like and don't like which you certainly did and I appreciate it.
The new product will be designed for raw and heavy meat feeders and will be used to balance out deficiencies in meat diets like calcium, phosphorus, copper, and zinc which is in very low amounts in raw meats and organs.
I too am a raw meat feeder but I also recognize the long term effects of deficiencies in major minerals(cal., phos., mag.) and trace minerals(cu, zn, mn) They can have long term effects on a dog's health in which there are no symptoms until damage is done.
Again, thank you very much for taking the time to answer me.
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
A proper raw diet does not need extra calcium, phosphorous, copper, or zinc. Bones have plenty of calcium and phosphorous, red meat and oysters have zinc, and liver is packed with copper. Fish and shrimp have magnesium. The reason so many people turn to raw is because there is generally no need for extra vitamins or minerals when it comes to a dogs basic health. If you feed a proper diet of 80% meat (chicken breast, beef heart), 10% bones (recreational bones that are not consumed don't count), and 10% organ meat (half MUST be liver, and the other half a secreting organ meat like kidney). All this is just filled with plenty of nutrients for a dog. If you don't feed raw properly then of course there will be deficiencies. You didn't mention bone, so if you aren't feeding that then your dog is definitely missing out.
 
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Discussion Starter #15
Thank you for taking the time to look at my website, I appreciate it very much. You are right no raw feeder would ever feed Triad Performance Supplement to its dog as it, on its face, goes against their philosophy. That product is a performance supplement that has been particularly successful in replacing the need to feed glucosomine, chondroitin, and hylauronic acid by replacing that feeding regimen with chelated copper, zinc, and manganese. The are very effective in relieving joint pain and the effects of arthritis by stimulating better enzyme production, particularly elastin which makes muscle, tendon, and cartilage tissue more flexible. They also have multiple other health benefits that make you dog so much more healthy in the long term, a benefit you will not find with the seafood line of defense against joint problems as almost all those products come from shell fish or shark tissue and are therefore un-natural to dogs.
I am working on a formulation for a new product which is still in development. I am including a link to an article published by Susan Thixton of TruthAboutPetFood.com which recaps the results of a University of California-Davis study about home blended diets. It is quite disturbing as far as long term nutrition goes.
Again, thank you for giving your time to answer my query.
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you for answering me Roo, I appreciate your time. The nutrition area that I am interested in complementing is that same group that are serious raw and "home" designed recipes. I am however alarmed about some other information, particularly that of a UC-Davis study about home designed recipes for dogs. Please take a look at this link hereand I think you will see why I am concerned. This is what I am working on, a supplemental product that balances out raw and raw meat/veggie diets.
Again, thank you for your time.
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Thank you JayJayisme for taking the time to answer me. I see by your join date that this is not your first rodeo. I have poured over USDA guidelines for "prime" and "select" meats and the best human grade poultry and fish, looking at micro-nutrients and I am not insinuating deficiency, the USDA and many others are saying it. Please look at this UC-Davis study They graded 200 diets and found 194 deficient. If you look at USDA gradings of human grade products from many different animal origins, they all say the same thing, inadequate as to calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, zinc, copper, and manganese.
It is also true that there is not a farm, ranch, livestock operation, vegetable farm, or orchard that is not a site for such pathogens as is related to salmonella and coccisidiosis. These are also challenges we plan to formulate for with products that are naturally extracted from yeast organisms and are a first line of defense against those same pathogens along with various mycotoxins that are found in all farm produced products, even organic farms.
 

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I get my dogs senior blood panels every six months and they aren't lacking in any of those things. Not sure why you think a raw diet would be lacking in things like calcium. Raw fed dogs should be getting plenty of calcium in bones.

I believe this is the article you refer to. I haven't read the study, but it sure looks to me like they are talking about COOKING. There is nothing lacking in a varied raw diet of good quality meat, bones, and organs. It is a dog's natural diet. Homemade dog food recipes can be risky business, study finds :: UC Davis News & Information
 

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I do have a dog that is older, in poor heath, and I am giving her "extra" stuff to help boost her immune system, support her diseased heart, and ease her arthritis. I don't think a raw fed dog NEVER needs anything extra, just not a healthy raw fed dog. I am interested in anything that could improve her quality of life.
 

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The product that is on my site is not the one I am formulating. Many times when formulating supplement products companies use carriers and when you buy and include micro ingredients, they are mixed with carriers because the actual active ingredients have such small inclusion rates. For instance, the product that has some hominy also includes whey which is a very good source of milk protein, anise, which is used as a flavoring agent(instead of artificial flavoring, fennegrek, which is healthy and has a calming effect on animals.
What I am looking for from readers is feedback on their products used and what they like and don't like which you certainly did and I appreciate it.
The new product will be designed for raw and heavy meat feeders and will be used to balance out deficiencies in meat diets like calcium, phosphorus, copper, and zinc which is in very low amounts in raw meats and organs.
I too am a raw meat feeder but I also recognize the long term effects of deficiencies in major minerals(cal., phos., mag.) and trace minerals(cu, zn, mn) They can have long term effects on a dog's health in which there are no symptoms until damage is done.
Again, thank you very much for taking the time to answer me.
Jerry Pardue
Build A Better Dog
When a raw diet if fed properly, there is no deficiency of calcium, phosphorus, copper,zinc or any other nutrient. Raw meat/bone/organs contain all of those, and everything else a dog needs, minerals included. Why do you think a raw diet would be deficient?
 
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