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I am ordering it soon and understand the gist of the diet is 60% rmbs and 40% healthy scraps/extras. What sort of scraps/extras does he mention?
I'm assuming it's healthy scraps from my dinner?

I do not eat grains/starch/sugar myself and do not season anything so that will defnitely be something ok for the dogs. THey already get snacks of frest fruits/vegges, and love to have some fresh kefir from my culture.

Also thinking of throwing in offal too once in a while.

How about fish oil?
 

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If you read the Signature in RFD's page you'll understand the diet much better, vegetables is not part of a prey model diet as it doesn't have any nutritional value.
Extra's could be the organs they will need eventually once a week after you do the diet for a while, fish once a week when you get established in the diet. Some of us do supplement a prey model diet with extra things like fish oil or glucosamine depending on the dog and his specific needs.
 

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Thanks! I will check out the link.

Initially the dogs were on Volhard NDF2, Gobie the minpin terror was fine on that, he looks great. The "girls" (Lexi and Darby bichons) on the other hand were itching, scratching, chewing, licking, biting at themselves, rubbing faces on it. Lexi has scratched a lot of coat off :(

They've been on an improvised RMB diet the last 3 days until Ihave a good understanding of it. Been doing chicken wings in the morning, and some of my dinner at night. I supp them all with fish oil to help with Gobie's arthritis (he's 13yrs, 9 months) and both the girls get it too for their general inflammation from allergies.

What I've already noticed is: NO MORE ITCHING, SCRATCHING! Woohoo This is something to yell about because they've been so miserable itching, they were waking me at night with sounds of scratching, pacing, whining. They sleep soundly now.

My minpin has always had digestive issues, having smelly pudding poop. Today we went for a walk, and as he always does, had a poo. It did not smell and it was formed. Not firm, but formed.

I have fed all kinds of ways over the years, mostly supp'd kibble with cooked or raw, premixes but in just these couple of days there is already a difference. Happy and quiet/content dogs, nice dog breath.

Thanks for the pointers again :)
 

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Yeah if you're feeding chicken wings and veggies but still getting non-firm poops, it is definitely because of the veggies. Chicken wings have lots of bone in them which makes them excellent for firming up the poop quickly, so try cutting out the veggies and see if that helps. And definitely read RFD's link, sounds like you're on the right track though.
 

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I am ordering it soon and understand the gist of the diet is 60% rmbs and 40% healthy scraps/extras. What sort of scraps/extras does he mention?
I'm assuming it's healthy scraps from my dinner?
I don't know where you got the 60/40 thing but I don't think it was from Tom Lonsdale. Tom has been a friend of mine for about 7 years and I have had many hours of discussion of the raw diet with him both in person and via email. It's always been my understanding of Tom's position on leftovers is that they won't hurt the dog and MAY help. That is hardly a ringing endorcement of feeding table scraps. I feed my dog's whatever leftover meat we have from our meals but I do think Tom is speaking of left over veggies too.

THey already get snacks of frest fruits/vegges, and love to have some fresh kefir from my culture.
If you are feeding those because the dogs like them ok, but don't expect them to derive any nutrition from them for many reasons that I will go into if you wish.

Also thinking of throwing in offal too once in a while.
Thats a requirement. At least 10% of their diet should be organs ... 15% would be better. BTW: For nutritional purposes, heart is not an organ ... it's a muscle.

How about fish oil?
Fish oil is good. Whole fish is best. Salmon is the best of the fish. Canned fish is second best.

ETA: IMO, Works Wonders is a better "how to" book than Raw Meaty Bones Promote Health. It is also a Lonsdale book.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Wow! THank you very much RFD!

That's very cool you've got Dr. L as a friend!

I have to admit, at supper time I was not sure what to feed them. I went with another wing for them and kefir/fish oil. 2 of the 3 were thrilled and the other was not quite sure.. 'I have to chew this down again?"

Thank goodness tomorrow is payday!
 

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I went with another wing for them and kefir/fish oil. 2 of the 3 were thrilled and the other was not quite sure.. 'I have to chew this down again?"
What size dogs do you have? If they are anything but very small toy breed dogs, a chicken wing is way too small to feed them.
 

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RFD, I'm going to have to disagree with you there! My Bull Terriers are anything but small and eat chicken wings and drumsticks on a regular basis, no worries about choking or gulping those things down. They still hate chicken backs with a passion and won't touch em!
 

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RFD, I'm going to have to disagree with you there! My Bull Terriers are anything but small and eat chicken wings and drumsticks on a regular basis, no worries about choking or gulping those things down. They still hate chicken backs with a passion and won't touch em!
Some small to medium size dogs have choked on them. I haven't heard of any dying but scaring their owners half to death. I feed wings and drumsticks to my cats. Sometimes it scares me to feed my dogs backs cause some are small.

Large dogs like mine swallow pieces much larger than wings or drumsticks regularly. They never chew a drumstick. Just swallow and down it goes.

I just picked up 40lbs of backs today for $13. :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have a 14 lb minpin (oversize, not fat) and oversize bichon at 22 lbs and a bichon at 17 lbs. They have eaten wings off and on for years and chew them up well.

I am feeling really confused- just thinking that dogs only need rmbs and organ meat, it doesn't feel right to me I suppose. I am still awaiting allergy test results on both bichons so that is leadin me to stall also on what to feed them.

Any small dog people want to give me a sample menu for a week or so?
 

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Some small to medium size dogs have choked on them. I haven't heard of any dying but scaring their owners half to death. I feed wings and drumsticks to my cats. Sometimes it scares me to feed my dogs backs cause some are small.

Large dogs like mine swallow pieces much larger than wings or drumsticks regularly. They never chew a drumstick. Just swallow and down it goes.

I just picked up 40lbs of backs today for $13. :smile:
Bailey the Dane will chew up a turkey neck, but swallow it whole...chicken wings she swallows whole (some restaurants bring out raw meat for the dogs when we go to dinner...and that is usually what they bring LOL). The bones always come out whole the other end...

We pay ~13-15 dollars for a 40lb case of chicken backs on a regular basis...meat in Denver is really reasonably priced.

I have a 14 lb minpin (oversize, not fat) and oversize bichon at 22 lbs and a bichon at 17 lbs. They have eaten wings off and on for years and chew them up well.

I am feeling really confused- just thinking that dogs only need rmbs and organ meat, it doesn't feel right to me I suppose. I am still awaiting allergy test results on both bichons so that is leadin me to stall also on what to feed them.

Any small dog people want to give me a sample menu for a week or so?
Small dogs can eat pretty much the same things as larger dogs, but in smaller quantities. Our latest Dane puppy only weighed 9 pounds when we brought her home, started on chicken wings for the first few days and then began eating chicken backs and turkey necks with ease. She chews her food well (unlike Bailey who tends to eat in 30 seconds flat)...

I would just stay away from the larger types of bones...that could damage teeth.

And there really isn't any need for fruits and veggies in a dogs diet. They do not possess the ability (ie symbiotic relationships with microorganisms/bacteria that produce the enzyme necessary for the aid in the digestion of cellulose-the material plant cell walls are composed of) to digest plant material.

You would have to puree fruits and veggies to get the nutrients from them, but dogs get all the nutrients they need from a balanced diet of meat, bones and organs. Hence not needing fruits and veggies. That does not mean you can't give them, it would just be added work for you.

I think the misconception with fruits and veggies in a dogs diet is directly linked to our diet. People think that dogs need the same diets as we do, but we are omnivorous and they are carnivorous. We humans don't even have this symbiotic relationship either (which is ironic since we are omnivorous), which is why you should chew your veggies or they will come out in the exact same shape as it went in! Most animals do not posses the relationship, except ruminants (ie cattle, deer, rabbits) and some insects.

Also...most allergies in dogs come from grains...not protein sources.
 

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I have a 14 lb minpin (oversize, not fat) and oversize bichon at 22 lbs and a bichon at 17 lbs. They have eaten wings off and on for years and chew them up well.
Chicken wings, drumsticks, and necks are well suited to your dogs.

I am feeling really confused- just thinking that dogs only need rmbs and organ meat, it doesn't feel right to me I suppose.
You have been brought up with the 7 food groups being taught that we need our fruits and veggies for a healthy life. For humans, this is a true statement. Dogs, on the other hand, are carnivores and for that reason alone have no need for plant material. Did you ever see a wolf grazing in a wheat field or a rice paddy or a corn field? Of course not. Because of their jaw structure, dentation, and digestive juice composition, they have no way to properly digest plant material. You have been duped by the dog food industry to believe they need these things because dog food would be prohibitively expensive without grains, veggies, and fruits.

I am still awaiting allergy test results on both bichons so that is leadin me to stall also on what to feed them.
As far as I know there is not an allergy test in existance that will reliably indicate what foods your dogs are allergic to. You can bet your bottom dollar that if they have food allergies, it will be to plant material because their bodies are built from their snout to anus to eat and digest meat, bones, and organs.

As an example I have a 9 1/2 year old Great Dane who hasn't eaten any plant material or any food containing plant material in 7 years. I have a 4 1/2 year old Dane who has never eaten plant material in his entire life. Both dogs are healthy except for one bad hip on the older dog.

My cats are the same. Neither have had plant material since they came to live with us, 5 and 6 years ago.

Any small dog people want to give me a sample menu for a week or so?
Feed them nothing but the small chicken parts (wings, drumsticks, or necks) for a couple of weeks. Then add some turkey meat to the diet for a week or so. After that, add some pork to the diet for a couple of weeks, then go with fish, then beef. After that, add whatever kind of meat you can find.

There is no such thing as a sample menu in raw feeding. I reach into the freezer and pull out whatever hasn't been recently fed whether it be chicken, turkey, pork, beef, fish, venison, goat, lamb or whatever other meat I may have in the freezer. I will say that I usually feed chicken about 3 or 4 times a week as it's cheap. I try to feed pork once a week, beef once a week, and fish once a week. Other stuff is just mixed in from time to time. You need to add new meats to the diet slowly to allow their digestive systems to adjust to them.
 

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Any small dog people want to give me a sample menu for a week or so?
Here's how my typical week goes:

Monday: Canned Mackerel
Tuesday: Chicken Leg Quarters
Wednesday: Chicken let quarters with an egg
Thursday: Any other type of meat like pork, beef, etc.
Friday: Chicken leg quarters with organ meat
Saturday: Tripe
Sunday: Any other type of meat plus heart

So for your dogs, just use chicken wings or drumsticks instead of leg quarters (and tripe is optional and debatable. My dogs love it and seem to be doing quite well with it in their diet, so I keep feeding it).

This is only to be done AFTER you've gotten your dogs slowly introduced to eating a proper prey model raw diet using only chicken and then slowly adding the other things over several weeks.

And of course, the days can be switched around and altered as needed, this is just a typical, basic overview of what I aim for. So long as you get the ratio right: mostly meat, some bones, some organs (about 15%) then you'll be fine.
 
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