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Discussion Starter #1
When talking about feeding a raw meaty bone diet, Ton Lonsdale also mentions feeding table scrapes to your dog. Here is a direct quote from him concerning the feeding of table scrapes:

"Wild carnivores eat small amounts of omnivore food, part-digested in liquid form, when they eat the intestines of their prey. Our table scrapes, and some fruit and vegetable peelings, are omnivore food which has not been ingested. Providing scrapes do not form too great a proportion of the diet they appear to do no harm and may do some good. I advise an upper limit of one-third scrapes for dogs and rather less for cats. Liquidising scrapes, both cooked and raw, in the kitchen mixer may help to increase their digestibility."
 

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Is it just me or is anyone else sad that the Honest Kitchen thread was closed down? :confused:

I, personally, give my dogs a PMR diet. HOWEVER, I also give them frozen mixed berries because I feel that they might nibble on some in the wild. I have thought and wondered many times if veggies and fruit would benefit my dogs. I still do from time to time. I've come to terms with this, and have discovered that offering my dogs some berries once every few days just makes me feel better.

I just wanted to throw my thoughts out there because I was too busy yesterday to add to the other thread. :biggrin:
 

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I moved the thread because its a continuance of the Honest Kitchen debate about what Lonsdale has said. Debating is fine, BUT please keep it civil. Once any of the moderators see this getting negatively heated, it will be closed.

Doc: Thank you for the exact quote. But I think you may have solidified what RFD was saying even more. In that quote, Lonsdale states that it MAY do some good, and that it is NOT harmful. No one where does he say that it is good for the dog and that he recommends it. To me, it sounds like more like he is saying "if you must, you can."
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I moved the thread because its a continuance of the Honest Kitchen debate about what Lonsdale has said. Debating is fine, BUT please keep it civil. Once any of the moderators see this getting negatively heated, it will be closed.

Doc: Thank you for the exact quote. But I think you may have solidified what RFD was saying even more. In that quote, Lonsdale states that it MAY do some good, and that it is NOT harmful. No one where does he say that it is good for the dog and that he recommends it. To me, it sounds like more like he is saying "if you must, you can."
From Tom Lonsdale:

I advise an upper limit of one-third scrapes for dogs and rather less for cats. Liquidising scrapes, both cooked and raw, in the kitchen mixer may help to increase their digestibility."

He may not "recommend" it but he does "advise" it. I guess it is open to one's interpretation what he means.

If you have read Raw Meaty Bones, Lonsdale main thrust has to do with canine tooth decay leading to an AIDS like conditions in dogs due to the toxic substances caused by tooth decay and gum disease and a dog's ability to fight off infection and diseases (perhaps another need for a good vitamin program - i.e. Mega C or the like). I found the book dwelling into the dental aspects of dogs and cats more than a book addressing the strengths of a raw fed diet. There is no doubt that raw meaty bones positively impacts the tooth and gum health of dogs which reduces diseases that are caused by such. But in my opinion, this is Lonsdale main emphasis in his book. I agree with the concept of raw meaty bones, but I haven't seen any scientific data that shows that a dog is overall healthier i.e. blood serium levels, lower incidences of cancer, SIBO, EPI, pancreas defficiency etc. when fed a 100% raw meaty bone, organs and meat diet.

One major argument proponents tout is that a Prey Model Raw diet has all that is needed as far as nutrients for a dog. Although I have never seen any research or data that reports this, I submit that although the prey model may contain the necessary elements and nutrients, it may not be in a usable forum. No one has shown me any information that states that raw meat, bones and organs (1) has all the needed elements to sustain health and growth, and (2) if it does, how much of it is in the available form. Don't dogs pass bone fragments in their stools? Did the dog obtain the needed material from the bone before it was passed? It obviously wasn't broken down into a liquid form so how available was it?

In my opinion, the prey model is great for what is does. The great unknown is what it doesn't do.
 

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Yes I suppose it is how we interpret the quote. I read that he was advising to give at most a 1/3 of scraps and less for cats. He then goes to say to use a kitchen mixer to make digesting easier. If it was something meant for them to eat, they would have no problem digesting it no?

Once again, I'm just saying what I got from the quote. I feed kibble so no way am I a "meat and only meat" activist. :biggrin:

edit: Your post got longer Doc! haha.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Yes I suppose it is how we interpret the quote. I read that he was advising to give at most a 1/3 of scraps and less for cats. He then goes to say to use a kitchen mixer to make digesting easier. If it was something meant for them to eat, they would have no problem digesting it no?

Once again, I'm just saying what I got from the quote. I feed kibble so no way am I a "meat and only meat" activist. :biggrin:

edit: Your post got longer Doc! haha.
I do not understand his reference to a mixer either. Cusick's research and diets include vegetables that are lighty cooked on the stove and mixed with meat. I'm not sure he talks about preping the vegetables in a mixer but I could be wrong.
 

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I moved the thread because its a continuance of the Honest Kitchen debate about what Lonsdale has said. Debating is fine, BUT please keep it civil. Once any of the moderators see this getting negatively heated, it will be closed.
Sweet. Thanks. :biggrin:
 

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From Tom Lonsdale:

I advise an upper limit of one-third scrapes for dogs and rather less for cats. Liquidising scrapes, both cooked and raw, in the kitchen mixer may help to increase their digestibility."

He may not "recommend" it but he does "advise" it. I guess it is open to one's interpretation what he means.
I interpreted this as saying this: "if you give table scraps, I'd advise not giving more than 1/3 of their calories in table scraps." I didn't really see any indication that he recommended *any* for a dog, but if you want to give them, keep them to less than 1/3 of their diet and they'll probably be okay.

I read this similarly to a suggestion that eating a Big Mac once in a while probably won't harm us if we're good about the majority of our diet and this isn't our "typical" eating habit. That doesn't mean it's good or healthy for us to eat them *ever*, but it's really just a call to moderation in less than ideal foods.

As for his indicating that a little in table scraps may help, I'd suggest that depends on what the scraps are and what the regular food is. If you are feeding crap kibble where most of the calories come from corn and wheat, meaty table scraps may very well be better for the dog than if 100% of the calories come from the crappy grain-loaded kibble. On the other hand, if you feed PMR or high-quality grain-free kibble, I doubt feeding a little bit of your pasta dinner would help at all. Again, *small* amounts probably aren't harmful, but not beneficial, either.
 

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From Tom Lonsdale:

I advise an upper limit of one-third scrapes for dogs and rather less for cats. Liquidising scrapes, both cooked and raw, in the kitchen mixer may help to increase their digestibility."

He may not "recommend" it but he does "advise" it. I guess it is open to one's interpretation what he means.
Tom wrote that book before I knew him. I know he is the one that convinced me that I could stop feeding any plant material whatsoever. That the dogs have no nutritional need for anything that doesn't come from the body of an anima.

If you have read Raw Meaty Bones, Lonsdale main thrust has to do with canine tooth decay leading to an AIDS like conditions in dogs due to the toxic substances caused by tooth decay and gum disease and a dog's ability to fight off infection and diseases (perhaps another need for a good vitamin program - i.e. Mega C or the like).
In my mind, the main thrust of Raw Meaty Bones is to explain WHY someone should feed their dogs an RMB diet. There is very little about how to. I told him so after I read it and thats when he wrote Work Wonders. That is more of a "how to" book than a "why" book.

You mention further down in this post about wanting to see studies. Why don't you ask for studies as to what benefit, if any, there is to a dog when giving him Vitamin C. The advice I've seen from some people is that if you give megadoses of Vit C, you must do many doses throughout the day because they eliminate the excess so fast.

I found the book dwelling into the dental aspects of dogs and cats more than a book addressing the strengths of a raw fed diet.
Thats because Tom's profession is a vet dentist.



I agree with the concept of raw meaty bones, but I haven't seen any scientific data that shows that a dog is overall healthier i.e. blood serium levels, lower incidences of cancer, SIBO, EPI, pancreas defficiency etc. when fed a 100% raw meaty bone, organs and meat diet.
And you never will. Who would pay for such research? Certainly not dog food companies. There is really no one who has any great benefit if you switch dogs to a raw diet. I don't think you will find any scientific data on how much a dog's health is improved by giving megadoses of Vit C.

One major argument proponents tout is that a Prey Model Raw diet has all that is needed as far as nutrients for a dog. Although I have never seen any research or data that reports this, I submit that although the prey model may contain the necessary elements and nutrients, it may not be in a usable forum.
Actually we are doing the research now. What does a researcher do? He does something and observes the results. I have fed my dogs a PMR diet for 8 years. Not one single plant item have I fed my dogs or cats in that time. I know people who have gone 30 years without feeding plant material. My dogs are healthy and so are theirs. I have no doubt that PMR contains ALL the necessary ingredients for dogs to live a long healthy life. That has been proven by the fact that dogs/wolves have eaten this diet for a million years.

No one has shown me any information that states that raw meat, bones and organs (1) has all the needed elements to sustain health and growth, and (2) if it does, how much of it is in the available form.[/quote]

Since dogs/wolves have eaten a PMR diet for a million years and kibble has been around for maybe 50 years and only popular for maybe 30, kibble is the FAD diet, not PMR. Why don't you ask the same question of the kibble manufacturers? No one seems to need them to prove anything. All the proof is left up to the PMR feeders to provide. We have a million years to back us up, kibble has 30. Let them provide proof. They don't. All the research they have done is to show that 6 of 8 dogs can live 6 months on a kibble diet. Thats the sum total of their research.

Don't dogs pass bone fragments in their stools?
Occasionally. More so in newly switched dogs until they learn to produce the necessary enzymes to digest bone. I rarely see any bone fragments anymore. It's no big deal. They pass without problem.

Did the dog obtain the needed material from the bone before it was passed?
If they didn't, we'd have a bunch of dogs with calcium deficiency and we don't.

It obviously wasn't broken down into a liquid form so how available was it?
We feed our dogs much more bone that is needed. I'm surprised that we don't see more bone fragments.

In my opinion, the prey model is great for what is does. The great unknown is what it doesn't do.
I hope I cleared some of that up. If there was something it didn't do, wolves would have gone extinct thousands of years ago. Nature got it right. We still have wolves and dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
The studies on Mega dose Vitamin C has been done - in this country and in Finland. I'm not making it up.

And here is what Lonsdale says about wild carnivores eating:

"Wild carnivores eat small amounts of omnivore food, part-digested in liquid form, when they eat the intestines of their prey. Our table scrapes, and some fruit and vegetable peelings, are omnivore food which has not been ingested.

Are you reading what you want to read or are you reading everything Lonsdale wrote? LOL

I feed a 90% raw meaty bone diet. I add up to 1/3 meat.vegs/fruits in a rehydrated form (not really soup but rather thick and moist). FYI, dehydration is a way to preserve food not process it.

And why do dogs eat grass? Or the poop of a kibble fed dog? hehehehe

So you will take a dentists advice about how to feed your dog? I understand the advantages of RMB on dentistry, Lonsdale is spot on but is he a nutritionist? hehehe

I also specified a particular form of Vitamin C - one that does not pass through their system because it is in a form that is better utilized within the body.

What is the average life span of a wolf?

So many questions and parts to the puzzle ...
 

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The average lifespan of a wolf is not indicative of a healthy diet. In the wild wolves encounter countless threats that limit their average lifespan. Hunters, famine, other predators, injury, disease, etc all play a factor in determining the average age of wolves in the wild. Guaranteed a wolf in captivity will live longer, much longer than its wild counterpart. Even a wolf in captivity fed crap kibble will probably survive longer than its wild counterpart.

So with that in mind, if a wild wolf was living in captivity (in your home because the domestic dog is only 0.02% genetically different than wild wolves) what would you feed it? What would seem natural to feed it? That is why PMR diet is ideal.

Whether you add veggies/fruits in or not, your dog is still getting their ideal diet. Because lets face it...the miniscule amount of nutrition added into a PMR diet by the fruits/veggies doesn't really make a difference in the long run. As someone on here has said many times before...let's not sweat the small stuff since we are all here for the benefit of our dogs.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
The average lifespan of a wolf is not indicative of a healthy diet. In the wild wolves encounter countless threats that limit their average lifespan. Hunters, famine, other predators, injury, disease, etc all play a factor in determining the average age of wolves in the wild. Guaranteed a wolf in captivity will live longer, much longer than its wild counterpart. Even a wolf in captivity fed crap kibble will probably survive longer than its wild counterpart.

So with that in mind, if a wild wolf was living in captivity (in your home because the domestic dog is only 0.02% genetically different than wild wolves) what would you feed it? What would seem natural to feed it? That is why PMR diet is ideal.

Whether you add veggies/fruits in or not, your dog is still getting their ideal diet. Because lets face it...the miniscule amount of nutrition added into a PMR diet by the fruits/veggies doesn't really make a difference in the long run. As someone on here has said many times before...let's not sweat the small stuff since we are all here for the benefit of our dogs.
What ever. Do you have any pertinent information to add to this discussion or are you trying to expose what little you understand about nutrition?

And since there is only 0.02% genetic difference in wolves and domesticated dogs, perhaps the average lifespan of a dog is not indicative of a healthy diet.

It sounds as if you are saying that there is no correlation between lifespan and diet. And if that is the case, why debate what to feed a dog?
 

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The studies on Mega dose Vitamin C has been done - in this country and in Finland. I'm not making it up.
Were the studies on humans or dogs? If dogs, I'd be interested in them.

And here is what Lonsdale says about wild carnivores eating:

"Wild carnivores eat small amounts of omnivore food, part-digested in liquid form, when they eat the intestines of their prey. Our table scrapes, and some fruit and vegetable peelings, are omnivore food which has not been ingested.

Are you reading what you want to read or are you reading everything Lonsdale wrote? LOL
I'm not reading anything. I'm telling what he told me in person. Again, he is the sole person who convinced me that fruits/veggies were unnecessary. I fed veggie slop once a week until I met Tom and never fed it again.

I feed a 90% raw meaty bone diet. I add up to 1/3 meat.vegs/fruits in a rehydrated form (not really soup but rather thick and moist). FYI, dehydration is a way to preserve food not process it.
6 of one and half dozen of the other.

And why do dogs eat grass?
I don't know and don't think anyone does. When they do, they either pretty quickly throw it back up mixed with some yellow bile or they will poop it out the back end twisted into a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that? Either way, it comes out looking just like it did when it went in so no nutrition was extracted.

Or the poop of a kibble fed dog?
Sugar

So you will take a dentists advice about how to feed your dog?
Yep :smile:

I understand the advantages of RMB on dentistry, Lonsdale is spot on but is he a nutritionist?
He knows more about canine nutrition than 95% of the vets out there. Heck, I know more about canine nutrition than 95% of the vets out there. :smile:

I also specified a particular form of Vitamin C - one that does not pass through their system because it is in a form that is better utilized within the body.
I'm still not convinced that its needed or utilized at all.

What is the average life span of a wolf?
As Natalie said, its just not relevent to this discussion. I doubt there have been many wolves that have lived out a natural life because of all the hazzards of living in the wild.

You didn't answer my question from my previous post. Why don't you ask the kibble companies for research proving their product supplies all the nutrients necessary for a dog to live a long healthy life? They are the new kids on the block. They haven't proved one thing about the nutritional value of their product. Why should I have to and they don't?
 

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What ever. Do you have any pertinent information to add to this discussion or are you trying to expose what little you understand about nutrition?

And since there is only 0.02% genetic difference in wolves and domesticated dogs, perhaps the average lifespan of a dog is not indicative of a healthy diet.

It sounds as if you are saying that there is no correlation between lifespan and diet. And if that is the case, why debate what to feed a dog?
Go back and read my post. Maybe read it twice since it's obvious you didn't comprehend what I was saying the first time I posted. Then read it one more time just to be safe.

I was comparing the lifespan of a wild wolf to one in captivity. The fact that not only diet comes into play when you are talking about overall health and longevity are directly associated with one another.

Where in my post did I say that diet and health and lifespan are not associated???

I would like to tell you now to keep your posts respectful. I do not find your lack of tact in responding to me in any way respectful.
 

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Doc, as Natalie stated, your post was very disrespectful. Debating is one thing, but insulting is another. No one here knows EVERYTHING about dogs and wolves. Everyone is merely stating what they have learned from others and their own experiences. There is no need to insult anyone. Please do not make the moderators have to lock this thread also.

There is a lot of good information being passed back and forth and I am sure many people are learning from it. Please don't ruin that.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Doc, as Natalie stated, your post was very disrespectful. Debating is one thing, but insulting is another. No one here knows EVERYTHING about dogs and wolves. Everyone is merely stating what they have learned from others and their own experiences. There is no need to insult anyone. Please do not make the moderators have to lock this thread also.

There is a lot of good information being passed back and forth and I am sure many people are learning from it. Please don't ruin that.
So my information is good? You could of fooled me by all the anti Doc information responses.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Here's your quote

The average lifespan of a wolf is not indicative of a healthy diet.

I think we speak a different language.
 

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And why do dogs eat grass? Or the poop of a kibble fed dog?
Why do dogs eat CD cases? And hair brushes? And hair ties? And pens? And walls? And dirt? *shrugs* Must be healthy for them, just because they eat them. I think I'll give them a nice helping of wooden shelves tonight.

What ever. Do you have any pertinent information to add to this discussion or are you trying to expose what little you understand about nutrition?
Really? "What ever"? You know how immature that sounds? You sit here and try to talk down to people, and tell them that you are more informed, that you are more mature and older and knowledgeable, and yet you use words like "what ever"?

It sounds as if you are saying that there is no correlation between lifespan and diet. And if that is the case, why debate what to feed a dog?
There is, but in the wild, this is not determined by the sheer fact that they eat deer or berries. In cavemen times, the average lifespan of a human being was thirty years. With modern advancements in technology and health care, the average lifespan is now up to the eighties and nineties.

Also, look at all the people in real life that live on junk food and greasy cheeseburgers from McDonald's and smoke and drink their whole lives. Not all of them die young. Many of them also live into their nineties. Does eating unhealthy food, drinking, smoking, and all that jazz guarantee that you're going to live until you're ninety? Do you think you would have a better chance if you did?

I, personally, am a firm believer that dogs do not need fruits or veggies in their diets. Do they enjoy them? Just as much as we enjoy our ice cream, I'm sure.

I don't know and don't think anyone does. When they do, they either pretty quickly throw it back up mixed with some yellow bile or they will poop it out the back end twisted into a neat little rope. Wonder how they do that? Either way, it comes out looking just like it did when it went in so no nutrition was extracted.
I can attest to that. Amaya LOVES to eat grass. I see it in her poop all the time, completely green and all. Sometimes, when she eats dried out long grasses, they cause the poops to separate, but still be connected, and she has a hard time pooping them out and ends up screaming her pretty little head off while trying to get it all out.

This, alone, is enough to assure me that they are completely undigestible for her, and that I'd prefer they not enter her system as a part of her diet, unless they're entering her system against my will or by way of treats.
 
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The average lifespan of a wolf is not indicative of a healthy diet.

I think we speak a different language.
How so? The average wolf in the wild's life expectancy is cut down early by disease, by injuries sustained in a hunt, by injured animals being targeted as prey, by many environmental factors not relevant to a wolf in captivity, let alone a dog.

In other words, a wolf in the wild (where most of them are) is less likely to die of "old age" or "natural causes" than a dog or a wolf in captivity -- and many of them die for these other "natural hazard" reasons before diet becomes a factor in longevity. So one can't look at the fact that a wolf may live 6-8 years on average in the wild and 12-15 years in captivity as indicative of diet. There are too many other variables and dangers that are removed in captivity. Plus, I doubt that wolves in captivity eat too many grains and vegetables anyway.

I understand you probably feel like folks here are "piling on," but it seems to me you're grasping at straws here. I had no trouble parsing this and I'm not a PMR feeder.
 
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