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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am reading about Leaky Gut Syndrome (Intestinal Hyperpermeability) and it is a very interesting topic at the crossroads of modern and alternative medicine. It is something that makes a lot of sense and is possible to scientifically identify but yet very hard to fully understand. This article from The Whole Dog Journal discuss among other things Leaky Gut Syndrom in dogs from an alternative medicine point of view.

It is difficult to find good sources of information on the topic for dogs. Most of them want to sell you some supplement, others do not discuss the theories and there are no sources for what they claim. Here is one though from Dr Susan Wynn

Some more links on the topic. It's as described in humans but it have relevance for dogs too.
Leaky gut syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Defining Leaky Gut Syndrome: Common Symptoms and the Difficulty of Diagnosis
Foundation for Integrated Medicine - LEAKY GUT SYNDROMES:*BREAKING THE VICIOUS CYCLE by Leo Galland, M.D.
Leo Galland, M.D.: Do You Have Leaky Gut Syndrome?

Do any of you have any links to other articles discussing IH in dogs, causes and treatments? If so I'd love to read them.
 

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Really glad you brought this up! I've always thought this might be Murph's issue. He had no allergy/yeast issues until he was 6 months old, got his rabies shot, had a bad reaction, and that's when his troubles began.

So far, premade raw is the only thing that does not cause him to get yeast ear infections.
 

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A few years ago after a bad antibiotic reaction, one of my doctors (bio nutritionist/D.C./acupuncturist/TMC) thought I might have Leaky gut, caused by the antibiotic reaction and the few rounds I was given shortly afterward, which led to lots of blood tested food sensitivities, which supposedly then led to a leaky gut. He "repaired" it by eliminating every food I tested sensitive to, and put me on a 90 day 4 day rotational diet with the foods I could still eat. I could only have the foods once every four days on a rotation cycle to prevent new sensitivities from occurring, during this time I also was on a lot of supplements (customized to my blood work), that changed every couple months when my blood was retaken to make sure my body was getting what it needed. I know a couple of the supplements used to heal the gut lining included L-glutamine, and heavy doses of probiotics, along with supplements to boost my immune system, adrenals, liver/kidneys, and my mental emotional state (I was stressed out from the bad drug reaction). I did greatly improve with the supplements, rotation diet, and acupuncture treatments, 95% of my food sensitivities cleared up within 90 days (except for a couple that might have been genetic), but most food sensitivities do change and can be healed with elimination diets etc.

It wasn't your typical drug reaction (allergy type), it was a less common toxicity reaction that affected my central nervous system, I had a lot of side effects, some that lasted for 9 months (nerves take time to heal). The antibiotic was in the Fluoroquinolone family (Avelox) and is a pretty strong antibiotic that can have some nasty side effects if you happen to be unlucky enough to have a reaction. I know a couple unfortunate people permanently in wheel chairs after taking a Fluoroquinolone. This class of antibiotics has been black listed in Europe and now at least carries stronger warnings on it in the US. Would you believe I only took 2 and 1/2 pills and ended up with that bad of a reaction? The scary thing is that people can have delayed reactions (days or weeks after they take the whole drug course) and if you've taken it before and not had a reaction, that doesn't mean that you won't the next time you take them. A couple of people I met from the support boards (yeah that many people have been affected by this antibiotic class), had reactions on the second or third time they took a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic, after being fine before, and since they had more in their system from the times before, their reactions were almost always much worse.

Certain Antibiotics Spur Widening Reports of Severe Side Effects | PBS NewsHour | June 16, 2011 | PBS
Dangers of Fluoroquinolones | Suite101
Fluoroquinolone Toxicity - How Dangerous Are the Side Effects of Fluoroquinolone Antibiotic Drugs? - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
Fluoroquinolone Antibiotics such as Cipro and Levaquin Ruin Lives - The Spearhead
http://www.facebook.com/FluoroquinoloneToxicity
The Fluoroquinolone Wall of Pain | Facebook
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
A few years ago after a bad antibiotic reaction, one of my doctors (bio nutritionist/D.C./acupuncturist/TMC) thought I might have Leaky gut, caused by the antibiotic reaction and the few rounds I was given shortly afterward, which led to lots of blood tested food sensitivities, which supposedly then led to a leaky gut. He "repaired" it by eliminating every food I tested sensitive to, and put me on a 90 day 4 day rotational diet with the foods I could still eat. I could only have the foods once every four days on a rotation cycle to prevent new sensitivities from occurring, during this time I also was on a lot of supplements (customized to my blood work), that changed every couple months when my blood was retaken to make sure my body was getting what it needed. I know a couple of the supplements used to heal the gut lining included L-glutamine, and heavy doses of probiotics, along with supplements to boost my immune system, adrenals, liver/kidneys, and my mental emotional state (I was stressed out from the bad drug reaction). I did greatly improve with the supplements, rotation diet, and acupuncture treatments, 95% of my food sensitivities cleared up within 90 days (except for a couple that might have been genetic), but most food sensitivities do change and can be healed with elimination diets etc.

It wasn't your typical drug reaction (allergy type), it was a less common toxicity reaction that affected my central nervous system, I had a lot of side effects, some that lasted for 9 months (nerves take time to heal). The antibiotic was in the Fluoroquinolone family (Avelox) and is a pretty strong antibiotic that can have some nasty side effects if you happen to be unlucky enough to have a reaction. I know a couple unfortunate people permanently in wheel chairs after taking a Fluoroquinolone. This class of antibiotics has been black listed in Europe and now at least carries stronger warnings on it in the US. Would you believe I only took 2 and 1/2 pills and ended up with that bad of a reaction? The scary thing is that people can have delayed reactions (days or weeks after they take the whole drug course) and if you've taken it before and not had a reaction, that doesn't mean that you won't the next time you take them. A couple of people I met from the support boards (yeah that many people have been affected by this antibiotic class), had reactions on the second or third time they took a Fluoroquinolone antibiotic, after being fine before, and since they had more in their system from the times before, their reactions were almost always much worse.

Certain Antibiotics Spur Widening Reports of Severe Side Effects | PBS NewsHour | June 16, 2011 | PBS
Dangers of Fluoroquinolones | Suite101
Fluoroquinolone Toxicity - How Dangerous Are the Side Effects of Fluoroquinolone Antibiotic Drugs? - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
Fluoroquinolone Antibiotics such as Cipro and Levaquin Ruin Lives - The Spearhead
http://www.facebook.com/FluoroquinoloneToxicity
The Fluoroquinolone Wall of Pain | Facebook
Thanks Roo! It must have been a very tough time for you. Glad you had a doctor who was ready to go the extra mile and try alternative routes in order to get you back to normal. Did your food reactions start immediately but the leaky gut situation took some time to develop? In other words did you suffer for some time from undiagnosed food allergies, giving the leaky gut time to develop, before it was identified or was it more instant? Either way it's a vicious cycle of severe inflammation causing cell damage that in turn leads to foreign substances reaching other parts of the body which leads to more reactions.
 

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Did your food reactions start immediately but the leaky gut situation took some time to develop? In other words did you suffer for some time from undiagnosed food allergies, giving the leaky gut time to develop, before it was identified or was it more instant?
I'm not sure actually, food sensitivity reactions are different from food allergy reactions, the symptoms can easily be mistaken for other conditions, or health issues, and sometimes there is very little to no reaction at all beyond the high antibodies in the blood. I had so many health problems going on at the time (all over muscle/joint pain and weakness (I had problems walking during the first couple months after the reaction), ear ringing, eye floaters, chronic fatigue, insomnia, anxiety, muscle twitching, burning sensations on my skin at times, headaches, nerve misfiring issues (felt like bee stings all over my body), GI issues, terrible joint poping every time I moved, my liver wasn't great etc.) I'm not sure what ones might have been the food sensitivities and what were from the drug reaction. I started seeing the doctor who helped me recover about two months after the initial reaction, he ran the food sensitivity blood test (IgG), and I tested sensitive to like 26 foods at the time, and I think that's one of the reasons he really thought I might have a leaky gut along with the recent antibiotic use (4 rounds in one month, I took two at once for one of the rounds I had).

It felt like a bomb had gone off inside my body, it was pretty scary for the first few months because I really didn't know how much I would recover, if I would recover etc. At the time, toxic reactions to this antibiotic were really not well known, so doctors were testing me for all kinds of scary things (lupus, MS, RA etc.), all the tests would come back normal and they thought I was crazy, until I found a doctor who believed me. Now I'll mention it, and most doctors seem to know what I'm talking about.

Within a year and a couple months though I was pretty much healed, I still have a little ear ringing at times, and some annoying eye floaters, but everything else went away thankfully, I was only 27 when it happened so I'm sure being somewhat young helped me to recover faster.
 

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great idea for a thread. I just read the WDJ article the other day.

a little of topic but i wonder if people who go on high does of antibiotics for lyme disease and experience extreme symptoms also have a leaky gut problem
 

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My dog with allergies had leaky gut, I treated her with Enzymes and a few herbs that were suggested. I also thought I had a problem years ago, I used a herbal cleans formula for about a month and then took probiotics to put flora back into my gut, takes away any bloating or stomach issues for me anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My dog with allergies had leaky gut, I treated her with Enzymes and a few herbs that were suggested.
Did you do the test as described in Jace' link above?

The sugar test seem straight forward but I don't know if most veterinary offices are set up to do the test? Anyone? Have anyone here with dogs with severe allergies and/or GI issues ever done a leaky gut test? Seems to me like food allergy and leaky gut testing should go hand in hand.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Really glad you brought this up! I've always thought this might be Murph's issue. He had no allergy/yeast issues until he was 6 months old, got his rabies shot, had a bad reaction, and that's when his troubles began.

So far, premade raw is the only thing that does not cause him to get yeast ear infections.
Ask your vet if it is possible to do a test like described in Jace' link. Could be worth it.
 

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I've found something that works for the most part though. The only issue he has now are his paws :-(
 

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I wonder if it would be worthwhile to e-mail Dr Batt, and ask him if he knows of North American clinics doing this, or if he takes international laisons? http://www.battlab.com/contact.htm I am only familiar with people using biopsies as an possible diagnosis.... What do you think DaVaking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I wonder if it would be worthwhile to e-mail Dr Batt, and ask him if he knows of North American clinics doing this, or if he takes international laisons? Battlab – Veterinary Diagnostic and Clinical Pathology Laboratory UK, Battlab, The high quality diagnostic laboratory service I am only familiar with people using biopsies as an possible diagnosis.... What do you think DaVaking?
That's a good idea. His method of measuring lactulose and rhamnose in the blood or urine seems very straight forward.
 

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I wonder if it would be worthwhile to e-mail Dr Batt, and ask him if he knows of North American clinics doing this, or if he takes international laisons? Battlab – Veterinary Diagnostic and Clinical Pathology Laboratory UK, Battlab, The high quality diagnostic laboratory service I am only familiar with people using biopsies as an possible diagnosis.... What do you think DaVaking?
I got a response back from Dr. Batts office. "Thank you for your enquiry, we can certainly discuss this with your veterinary practitioner." Now if someone wants to step up? :)
 

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Very interesting reading through all this! This may be something Melon is dealing with, as over the last year we've noticed more and more soft poos, diarrhea, etc. His skin is also getting progressively worse!

Interestingly enough, we took him off BARF and went to PMR over the last year as well. A couple of those articles recommend a variety of fruits and veg as treatments. I think I'm going to put him back on a BARF-style diet and see how he does with that!
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Very interesting reading through all this! This may be something Melon is dealing with, as over the last year we've noticed more and more soft poos, diarrhea, etc. His skin is also getting progressively worse!

Interestingly enough, we took him off BARF and went to PMR over the last year as well. A couple of those articles recommend a variety of fruits and veg as treatments. I think I'm going to put him back on a BARF-style diet and see how he does with that!
Maybe you could discuss with your vet the possibility of him/her contacting Dr. Batt's office to see if it is possible for them to do the non invasive sugar test on Melon? As Jace said above, they are willing to discuss the test with your local veterinarian. You and Melon could be pioneers :first:
 

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Maybe you could discuss with your vet the possibility of him/her contacting Dr. Batt's office to see if it is possible for them to do the non invasive sugar test on Melon? As Jace said above, they are willing to discuss the test with your local veterinarian. You and Melon could be pioneers :first:
I thought about that, but to be perfectly honest money is really tight right now. :( Riddle basically ate two paychecks with that cat litter fiasco, and we're still trying to save for her elbow surgery. I know our vet would do the test if we asked him, but at this particular point I'd like to try some of the solutions the articles talked about to see if that helps. If they don't, we will probably end up doing some sort of diagnostics somehow.
 

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Well, we were at the vet today anyway for Riddle's cold laser treatment, and I asked our vet while we were there just what he thought of Melon's symptoms and leaky gut. He said it was entirely possible that he had it, and it was more common than people seemed to think. Actually he told me that he feels most if not all kibble fed dogs have leaky gut syndrome to some degree. Anyway, I told him about my plan of fruits and veg along with probiotics, enzymes, etc., and he actually suggested I try raw, unpasteurized goat's milk first. It contains probiotics, enzymes, and omega fatty acids as well as a bunch of other nutrients, and he thought it would be easier than buying a bunch of different supplements. He's actually been having a few different clients try it lately for allergy dogs and immune deficient dogs.

So I picked up a pint for $5, and we'll see how it goes!
 
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