[RawFedDogs]

Can anyone give me a site (unbiased) that says that dogs are carnivores?

This is contrary to everything I have ever read.

The only scientific discipline that says dogs are omnivores is the veteranary community which is strongly influenced by the pet food industry. It's necessary for the pet food industry to convince us that dogs are omnivores in order for them to sell us their grain based and almost meatless kibbles.

Biologists, zoologists, other animal scientists all say dogs are carnivores. The Smithsonian Institute says dogs are carnivores.

There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths. Dogs have large mouths.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. This is used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You much mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth). Dogs do not have flat teeth.

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down. Dogs do not have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores. Dogs jaws are hinged the same way all other carnivores are hinged.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices. Dog's stomach juices are VERY acidic.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With thier short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics.

About maybe 20 years ago (I am dating myself) a company came out with an all meat food and dogs started getting sick and it was taken off the market.

I can't think of any respected source in dog nutrition who would say to feed meat only so if someone has a source please let me know.

You are right. Meat only is not everything a dog needs. He also need bones and organs. Everything a dog need nutritionly comes from the body of a prey animal. There are no nutrients in any fruit or veggie or grain that is no in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them.

Check out this web page http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html as well as http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

You also might want to check out the whole list of raw feeding myths on this page http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html

So then I turn your question back on you. Forget what others tell you. Use your own powers of logic and reason. What is there physically about a dog that makes you think he is an omnivore?

 

[carnivorediet]

Dog are listed under the order carnivora. Of course they will eat anything to survive and are omnivorous because they are being fed by humans and have no choice but to be so. If given a choice what would they be. If you look at dingos who are not native to Australia, thought to be brought there by aboriginal people or something to that nature, who have reverted to a wild state are carnivores preferring mammals. They will go to insects or reptiles if needed and probably would go to trash if in dire need. A dingo in a perfect state of health would be one living off of mammals i would bet (in short being a carnivore). I personally dont get why it is that important to have absolute classification.... I feed raw meat but I include veg matter - only because I can not just drop dead prey for them. They probably wouldn't know what to do with it and I sure as heck couldn't kill it (or watch them kill it). So because I cant give the whole carcass to let them pick and chose what parts they want I give veg to fill the spectrum of nutrients (so i hope). The one thing I can say is... my dogs were on a "6 star" kibble food and one was refusing, the others would have gone with it until they died. Going to homemade raw I have seen what i think has been detox. They did not detox on the 6 star food. I have seen noticeable improvement in coat (much softer, still just as shiny), NO gas (gassy on 6 star), and my old dog is friskier and the shake in her rear end is noticeably better. The only thing really different I am doing is much more meat and probably higher quality all the way around. Maybe more meat is the key?? Oh and one more important difference... teeth. I have seen tarter disappearing off my little dog's teeth, who was in need of a dental. They say dental disease causes all sorts of problems with major organs and raw feeding has brought my dogs' digestive systems back to what it should be, highly acidic. I love the fact I may never have to do dentals again. That is so expensive.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Dog are listed under the order carnivora. Of course they will eat anything to survive and are omnivorous because they are being fed by humans and have no choice but to be so.

You can't feed a carnivore food meant for an omnivore and create an omnivore. He will still be a carnivore forced to eat inappropriate food.

They will go to insects or reptiles if needed and probably would go to trash if in dire need.

Even insects and reptiles are meat, bones and organs.

I personally dont get why it is that important to have absolute classification.... I feed raw meat but I include veg matter - only because I can not just drop dead prey for them.

It's important because it's important to know what the proper food is for an animal. You wouldn't feed meat to a cow or horse or a rabbit. You wouldn't feed plant material to a lion, tiger, wolf or dog.

You will be surprised to learn that you can drop dead prey for your dogs. You can buy whole rabbits, with or without fur, with or without organs intact. There are several places on the internet to buy these. You can pretty easily find goat farmers willing to sell you a goat often already killed and dressed. Whole chickens are probably the easiest whole prey to feed. It's really not that hard if you just put forth a little effort to find them. And, yes, you are right. Often at first sight, they don't know what to do but left alone for an hour or so, they figure it out and next time, they dive right in.

If you have multiple dogs, its interesting to see the different ways they eat whole prey. I have a dog that starts at the head and eats his way to the back. One eats feed and tail first before opening the belly and eating the organs.

So because I cant give the whole carcass to let them pick and chose what parts they want I give veg to fill the spectrum of nutrients (so i hope).

What you are doing is feeding plant material "just in case". You can't get pass the notion you were taught as a child that you must eat your veggies to be healthy. Many people have problems getting past that. Once you realize that there is not a nutrient in a plant that is not in the body of the prey animals that eat that plant.

Going to homemade raw I have seen what i think has been detox.

I believe that "detox" is a misnomer and is nonexistant. When people switch their dog to a raw diet, they start watching him very very closely and every negative thing that appears is blamed on this mythical phemenom that they call "detox". Most of them were happening anyway and just weren't noticed or they would have happened whether the diet was changed or not. But this is an argument for another thread.

 

[carnivorediet]

You can't feed a carnivore food meant for an omnivore and create an omnivore. He will still be a carnivore forced to eat inappropriate food.

Ok. But how would you list deer and sheep that has been observed to eat baby birds in the UK. The theory is that when the calcium level in the leaves they eat become too low they will then eat these baby birds that cannot fly yet. They are herbivores but any animal will go to different sources to survive. Animals are amazing in knowing what they are missing and will search for it. I still dont think it is so important to classify as they can and do eat things out of their classification, and if you need to improvise for your pets, such as these deer and sheep, you do so. I still think the smaller carnivores such as fox and jackal eat stomach content regularly because they eat small prey and thus eat plant material. I have seen coyote swallow whole baby rabbit.. couple of chews, but everything went down. I guess what I am trying to say is dogs are listed as carnivores and have carnivore physiology and eat plant material too. Not because they would heavily graze and rely on plants, but because they would ingest it (at least some times) from their prey.

 

[RawFedDogs]

Ok. But how would you list deer and sheep that has been observed to eat baby birds in the UK.

I don't know that they have. What sources do you have for that?

The theory is that when the calcium level in the leaves they eat become too low they will then eat these baby birds that cannot fly yet.

I haven't seen anything about leaves loosing calcium and even if they have been observed eating baby birds, I think the freequency of deer and sheep finding babybirds on the ground would be very rare and certainly not often enough to be even a minor part of their diet or nutritional needs.

Animals are amazing in knowing what they are missing and will search for it.

I don't give animals any mystical ability to know what they need nutritionally. They eat what is available. If they are carnivores, they eat animals they can catch and kill. Deer are browsers eat a variety of plant products such as leaves, twigs, roots, bark, nuts, sometimes grass. They don't chase down animals and kill them. Their mouths are not equiped for that. Their feed aren't equipped for that.

I still dont think it is so important to classify as they can and do eat things out of their classification, and if you need to improvise for your pets, such as these deer and sheep, you do so.

That will work for some pets but not others. Try feeding grass to a snake. Try feeding a rat to a rabbit. You can get some carnivores to eat plant material but it is entirely unnecessary and they will be healthier on a proper diet the same as humans.

I still think the smaller carnivores such as fox and jackal eat stomach content regularly because they eat small prey and thus eat plant material. I have seen coyote swallow whole baby rabbit.. couple of chews, but everything went down.

Foxes adn jackels are not wolves/dogs. Yes, in the wild when a wolf or dog catches a very small animal that they can eat in a couple of crunches, they don't bother removing the stomach. When I feed rabbits to my dogs, they DO remove the stomach, sissor it open with their back teeth, shake out the contents then eat the stomach. Researchers of wild wolves varify that wolves do the same with larger prey. If my dogs were to eat a mouse or rat, I doubt they would take out the stomach.

Let's say for arguments sake that wolves/dogs DID eat stomach contents of prey animals. What would they be eating? Certainly not peas, corn, zuchinni, tomatoes, broccoli or the other veggies people want to feed their dogs. They would be eating partially digeested grass, weeds, leaves, and twigs. Of course they don't eat the stomach contents.

I guess what I am trying to say is dogs are listed as carnivores and have carnivore physiology and eat plant material too. Not because they would heavily graze and rely on plants, but because they would ingest it (at least some times) from their prey.

I think I have just shown that that doesn't happen. Go back to the myths pages I recommended in a previous post, particularly the one about eating stomach contents at http://rawfed.com/myths/stomachcontents.html

 

[carnivorediet]

killer deer

Regarding deer eating birds - I watch a documentary on it. It was called killer deer or something. It caught my attention and I watched it. You can google it and find articles. There is even something about north american white tails too. Anyway I get what you are saying about it. I know the veggies I use are not a normal grass prey animals would eat. I do use dandelion, however. I just want to use what I have heard to be good cleansing, cancer fighting type of veggies. AHHH... maybe that is why mine detoxed (just messing with you) I figure they need mostly meat (raw), calcium source, and if I can use the goodness of certain veggies I will. After all our pets dont live in near the same environment as their ancestors did or even wild cousins today. Our pets live in polluted cities, on carpets that give off chemicals, etc. So i will use todays knowledge of nutrition and try and implement it.

 

[RawFedDogs]

I figure they need mostly meat (raw), calcium source, and if I can use the goodness of certain veggies I will.

Yes, mostly meat, some bone(natural calcium source for carnivores) and some organs.

After all our pets dont live in near the same environment as their ancestors did or even wild cousins today. Our pets live in polluted cities, on carpets that give off chemicals, etc.

All the more reason to feed a proper diet so they will have strong bodies and a strong immune system to fight all that stuff.

So i will use todays knowledge of nutrition and try and implement it.

Today's knowledge of nutrition is carnivores eat meat, bones, and organs. Anything else you see is marketing hype by the pet food industry.

It's been fun. Talk to you later. <--- this is supposed to be a smiley face.

 

[Guest]

The Nutrition Quandry

So, I grabbed 8 books off the shelf and got mixed answers. Pitcairn says dogs are carnovores. Goldstein says ominvores. Schoen says omnivores, the Aspca says omnivores. One said that, like wolves, dogs prefer meat but will eat veggies. Steven Lindsay quoted a couple of interesting studies on what influences what a dog likes to eat. I didn't see my Roger Abrantes books or my books on wolves.

I think my dog is an omnivore because that is the diet he chooses to eat. He eats vegetables from the garden. He eats certain herbs I grow. He eats raw bones and a raw mixed diet of fish, fruit, veggies and grains.

He's not too big on grains. If I put left over noodles on his food he picks them up and puts them on the floor and then eats his food! He is a smart little guy who I believe knows what he needs instinctively. I have found this to be true of kids also.

I don't think there is one diet that all (people, animals, insects etc.) will thrive on). I think we all have different needs.

I am going to go in the middle on this one. I also find it interesting that people can be so adamant about a dog eating what is natural while they themselves eat things like meat and cows milk. Milk has got to be the most freakish thing I have ever seen a human injest.

No other species drinks milk as adults and very rarely do they drink milk from another species. I find it so odd to see people sit down with a meal and a glass of milk.

Both my acupuncturist and my family doctor were convinced that I needed to eat meat. I kept asking why. Tell me what it will provide and I will find it in a non meat source. They couldn't tell me but finally I caved and ate meat for 8 months. It fixed one problem I was having with my ankles bit caused about 20 others. I felt awful. Now even my family doctor thinks I was not meant to eat meat. She doesn't think that of all her patients, but for me, meat doesn't work.

Works great for my dogs and cats, they thrive. They also like fruits, veggies and some grains and they still thrive. Now, one of my cats can't eat chicken. No problem, we accomodate individuals in my kitchen!

 

[LuvsDogs]

There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. Dogs have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivores characteristics. Kinda makes them look like a carnivore, huh?.

This point came to my attention because when my son's dog, 8 y/o in October, was a baby puppy I used to give her chicken necks & lamb brisket bones. Because she was little I mistakenly only gave her one rib bone at a time thinking she would chew it up. She swallowed it whole, made a painful yelp, & that was it. She would also swallow chicken necks the same way. I worried about her doing this at the time, but nothing came out the other end & she didn't seem to have any other problems, apart from the yelp while swallowing it. I can now see what happened to these bones.
At the same time I had my previous Border Collie, April, on the Billinghurst diet. In 1998 I listened to a talk by Billinghurst on the benefits of raw feeding & the dangers of feeding dog food. I bought his 1st 2 books & used to make up the veggie mix with all the additives he suggested, such as brewers yeast, yoghurt, raw egg, flaxseed oil, chicken livers or hearts, vit C & Vit E added before feeding. April didn't like this mix & I always had to add something else to get her to eat it such as sardines, mince, & others.
When Sooty came along in 2000 I gave her the same diet & she took to it straight away. When she went to the vets for her course of vaccinations he/she told me to put her on to dog kibble because she was too thin & if the RSPCA saw her we would be fined for starving the pup. She just came from thin parents. Of course raw meaty bones made up the bulk of their diets.
I later bought Tom Lonsdale's books & Billinghurst's Barf book.
Over the years I've fed the dogs dog food with bones. In later years April my border became alergic to wheat & couldn't have dog kibble & lived on mostly chicken bones with the occasional lamb brisket & lamb necks. At one time the vet wanted to clean & scale her teeth but after living on bones for a year, the next time I took her they said her teeth were good for her age.

 

[Stella08]

Thanks

Learn at least the basics of reading the ingredient labels. Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba are a few of the absolute worst dog foods. You do not want any corn, any by-products, any checmicals, any gluten, or lots of grains in the food.

Innova Evo is one of the best foods. Other very good foods are Canidae All Stages, Wellness, Eagle Pack Holistic Select. There are others as well. Here's a good source:
www.dogfoodproject.com

Lori

Thanks Lori for your information

 

[Stella08]

Organic food

My question: is the organic food good for my chihuahua??, I get the brand name "Animal Party" is a organic food, she like it, I was given Evo, Innova (she don't like it) and Purina.. Because didn't have the Evo she give me "Animal Party and Wellness.. but Wellness didn't like it..
What I found is my dog is getting biger I dont' know if is the food or what.. I don't give it to her a row food because she didn't like it and get diarrhea right away..
Thanks for your advice.

 

[BoxerMommie]

My question: is the organic food good for my chihuahua??, I get the brand name "Animal Party" is a organic food, she like it, I was given Evo, Innova (she don't like it) and Purina.. Because didn't have the Evo she give me "Animal Party and Wellness.. but Wellness didn't like it..
What I found is my dog is getting biger I dont' know if is the food or what.. I don't give it to her a row food because she didn't like it and get diarrhea right away..
Thanks for your advice.

Doesn't look like that food is a bad food at all, but anything can be good or bad for a dog depending on how their body respnds to it. If she's getting a bit plump feed her less it's really that simple. It also sounds like your dog has YOU trained. IMO picky dogs are created not born that way. Choose 2-3 foods that you can afford that is healthy ingredient wise and rotate between those every few months. I promise, your dog will eventually eat once you stop giving in. So choose a few that are in your area that you can afford and when you make switches make sure you switch over gradually. But like I said on the getting porkie, either increase her exercise amount to burn more calories or decrease the amount you feed her to cut back on calories.

 

[Stella08]

Your are right she is picky because of me is my fault.
I try to satisfy her.. so that's why I try differents brand names of food.. also I don't want she get bored because she don't eat dry food at all.. when I mix the dry food w/ can food she pick up only the food she like it and the dry food she put it on the floor.
Thanks so much for your advice!!

 

[BoxerMommie]

Your are right she is picky because of me is my fault.
I try to satisfy her.. so that's why I try differents brand names of food.. also I don't want she get bored because she don't eat dry food at all.. when I mix the dry food w/ can food she pick up only the food she like it and the dry food she put it on the floor.
Thanks so much for your advice!!

Switching 3-4 times a year is fine and actually healthy, but to have a dog that you admit "doesn't like" or "won't eat" multiple brands of food typically means you're trained. 1 or 2 foods that a dog doesn't like is understandable, multiple foods is rediculous (again JMO). Which is why I said pick 2-3 different foods that are in your price range and available in your area that are nutritious and switch between them 3-4 times a year. Switching too often is not healthy though and can cause stomach upset, gas, diarrhea, vomiting, among other problems so keep that in mind as well.

 

[Stella08]

Switching 3-4 times a year is fine and actually healthy, but to have a dog that you admit "doesn't like" or "won't eat" multiple brands of food typically means you're trained. 1 or 2 foods that a dog doesn't like is understandable, multiple foods is rediculous (again JMO). Which is why I said pick 2-3 different foods that are in your price range and available in your area that are nutritious and switch between them 3-4 times a year. Switching too often is not healthy though and can cause stomach upset, gas, diarrhea, vomiting, among other problems so keep that in mind as well.

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate.. I am lost in how to feed my dog and want a healthy dog and I am afraid to give her a kind of food bad, here in this site people said Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, etc are bad food w/ quimical process so tha't why I am very concern in what to give her.
Thanks again!!

 

[BoxerMommie]

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate.. I am lost in how to feed my dog and want a healthy dog and I am afraid to give her a kind of food bad, here in this site people said Purina, Pedigree, Eukanuba, etc are bad food w/ quimical process so tha't why I am very concern in what to give her.
Thanks again!!

A good site to help you find a food is www.dogfoodanalysis.com I disagree with some of their opinions but as a guideline it can be helpful. You want to be feeding at least a 4 star food, so that may give you some extra options also.

Good luck.

 

[Stella08]

Thanks so much that site is really good!!

 

[rannmiller]

Yeah it helps break it down and demystify the ingredients a little bit. Did you choose one or two yet?

 

[Stella08]

I choose for Evo, Party Animal (organic food) and wellness.

 

[rannmiller]

I've never heard of Party Animal but the other two are great so I'm sure it's good too.