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Discussion Starter #1
Hey there--

I have an 8 month black lab and a year old Puggle, both female.. both spayed

I started with Eukanuba when they were 3 months; however, in the past 2 months I finally did my research to realize Eukanuba was just overpriced supermarket grade garbage.. this made me very nervous and immediately started the switching process..
Both dogs were at a healthy weight before switching but i knew I had to switch either way..
I have landed on Innova EVO red meat and both of them go bananas for it.. The employees of the petstore recommended innova of any form and I personally was very impressed with the EVO's ingredients.. They are both extremely active so I need a food to match the energy they expel day in and day out.. I am very pleased with the EVO line so far, the concept of the food, the anceistrial diet, as they call it seems perfect to me, but then again I thought the filler free eukanuba was good too at the time..

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any thoughts?
 

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If I HAD to feed kibble, which I don't, it would be EVO. It's advertising says, "next best thing to a raw diet"(which is probably true). Why would you want to fed the next best thing? Why not the best?
 

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Evo is a very good, high-quality kibble. It's grain free and very high in protein. Some less active dogs can't handle the high protein. I tried to feed it to Bella and she had diarrhea and got sick. So I switched her to a lower protein, grain-free food.
 

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I feed Innova EVO small bites, we have a siezure dog and it was recommend we feed a grain free diet to eliminate any intolerances or allergies. My dog is pretty active and handles the high protien content pretty well.
 
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EVO is a great food, and it's one that I keep in my rotation. For those of us who can't go raw (for several reasons) it's a great alternative. I also feed Orijen (super high protein though, 42%), Timberwolf Organics, and now I'm on Great Life.

I work at Petsmart, and it makes me cringe to see people buying SD and Eukanuba. I can't exactly accost these people and send them to the store I shop at, but I have managed to send a few people that way when they've asked (and after I've made sure no managers are lurking about).

What's especially helpful is when I bring my Siberian into the store. It never fails that someone will ask about his soft luxurious coat and I bring up his food. You don't often come across a Sibe with such a soft coat, so it's commented on quite often.

We're changing people's minds, 1 at a time. That's where this forum and other sites such as dogfoodanalysis.com are so very helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
So far so good, excellent reassurance.. thanks

tell petsmart to carry evo then for me! be a lot easier to find it--
 

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evo for growing dog

If I might- I would be feeding the 8 month old Innova large breed puppy- it is in a purple bag. I have a lab that has some joint issues- from what I understand if a large breed pup grown to fast they can have this problem. Maybe mix them. Anything made by Natura is good. I make my own but that is who I would buy from if I bought kibble regularly so you are doing good!
 

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Is anyone from Phoenix and know where to get these special brands of dog food??

I'm in a suburb of Phoenix. Best thing to do is go to the pet company's website and find a dealer near you. Innova and California natural are www.naturapet.com Canidae is www.canidae.com Wellness is www.wellnesspetfood.com if you are looking at any others you can do a Google search to find the pet food website. Then you can call around to a few places near you that sell it to find the best price.

Good luck!
 
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Z

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Protein Level

Is way too high for me. I don't like feeding anything over 24% and I can do that with no grains.
Protein as a whole is over rated but given the studies done at Tufts on the correlation between aggression and high protein, I'll stick with low protein.
You're probably safe with a Pug, but still, why tax the kidneys?
 

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Its an old wives tale that high protein causes kidney damage/disease. "If it does" then there is typically already an underlying problem with kidney issues that have been previously missed. Protein is actually processed in the liver and any waste materials are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. High quality protein does not generate large amounts of waste that needs to be removed from the body, but poor quality protein which is difficult to digest does and thus puts stress on the kidneys. Many people cite old, outdated research that claims high protein percentages in the food are harmful to dogs and do all kinds of damage, especially to the liver. Fact is that these studies were conducted by feeding dogs foods that were made from poor quality, hard to digest protein sources, such as soy, corn, byproducts, blood meal and so on.

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=protein_myth
It is critical to stress that the term "crude protein" is used in the guaranteed analysis, which means there is no statement whatsoever as to its digestibility. Protein comes in many forms, even shoe leather, chicken feathers or cow hooves have a fairly high crude protein content, but the body is only able to extract and process very little of it, at the price of a lot of work and stress to do so.

Due to this labeling issue (only one of many, many others), the percentage of protein in a food by itself doesn't say anything at all. Ingredient lists are not 100% straightforward and truthful either, but at least you can somewhat gauge if there's even any quality protein in there at all.

Just to illustrate once again by example, let's say we have two foods which have the same percentages of protein, fat, carbohydrates, fiber and moisture. Food A contains 25% protein that is 60% digestible and food B contains 25% protein that is 85% digestible. That means of food A the body is able to utilize 15% of the protein content, but of food B 21.25%. Logically, to meet the body's requirement of protein, you'd have to feed more of food A than of food B, and the body of the dog eating food B will have to work less to utilize it.

I guess in really simple terms you can compare it to the engine of a car and the type of fuel you use. Just because you use high octane gas in a car that doesn't need it, it's not going to do any damage, but if you use poor quality fuel, regardless whether it is high or low octane, there will be buildup in the engine that hampers performance and will eventually lead to damage.
and I don't buy the High Protein = increased Aggression...
but that's just me :p
 

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Discussion Starter #12
duty free

...I have to disagree with your previous kidney taxation statement-- Do you really think carnivores have trouble digesting protein? Raw diets certainly contain more than 42% protein, their weight management version has 52% protein!
 

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Maybe certain dogs with certain kidney and/or liver problems or have been fed a very grain-filled diet their whole lives and aren't used to consuming anything healthy do have a problem with too much protein. However, I'd have to agree, dogs are (for the most part) made to digest protein, why would they have a hard time doing what they're made to do?
 
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Protein

I think new science (plus some thousand year old science) does show that no one needs as much protein as they think.

It does tax the kidneys and the liver (as another poster pointed out). And by taxing I mean that it makes them work harder. Most cats who live long enough die of kidney failure. Faulty construction to be sure, but why add to it by feeding high protein and adding to the problem

Yes, in the wild animals eat a lot of protein but how long do they live? (And I am taking into consideration all of the factors of living in the wild not just food).

I feed a raw that is 19% protein. And I agree with another poster who said they only consider it raw if you make it yourself. So, I'll call that homemade raw.

As a trainer of 16 years, my biggest concern is aggression though, not kidneys.
We are seeing more and more of that and I am betting it will increase as more folks opt for these outrageously high in protein diets.

The Tufts study has been around forever. I have high regard for their school and have seen the difference in my years of training when an aggressive dog is put on a low protein diet. Almost any experienced trainer regardless of their philosophy or methods knows of this study and the great results you get from lowering protein.

I have had a few clients whose totally non aggressive dogs switched to EVO because of allergies, only to quit soon after because their dogs whined all the time on it. High protein (and by that I mean anything over 24%) might be ok for working or perfroming dogs who are doing the equivilent of over 5 miles of jogging a day. For the rest of them it seems to have an adverse effect.

We are seeing that in the training world and the numbers of surrenders at shelters due to aggression.

That being said, all dogs are different and react differently. There are dogs that live to be a healthy 22 years old eating Science Diet. So whatever works for your pets is what is best.

Tracy B Ann
www.zenpaws.com
"The Politics of Dogs"
www.radiofreenashville.org
 

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Discussion Starter #15
aggression

aggression is fairly common characteristic in dogs..they are tough, relatively wild machines that can be aggressive animals in the first place-- Most weak owners/ leaders who let their dogs run the house will have aggression issues with people and/ or animals depending on their past experience-- it is a national tragedy that so many dogs are ditched into shelters daily due to aggression; however, lets be serious, any rise in aggression is due to a weak human, not their food!

Tufts is a great school.. It is great to do research concerning the well being of animals.. but with that said I am yet to have any aggression issues at all, no change whatsoever in aggression since switching a lab/ pit mix, pocket puggle, shepard/ beagle mix and a boxer all from eukanuba/ science diet to EVO red meat.. if someone cannot keep their dog under control their last concern should be the protein level..

My dogs have never had a more healthy aura than they do these days post the crappy food switch.. All of them are active dogs, hence the high protein.. it takes a lot of energy to run around all day-- I don't jog with them, I ride my bike with them at a solid pace and hike/ take them swimming.. yes even the pocket puggle enjoys a swim upstream!
Any food should be monitored.. That is one of the main ideas of this website, everydog is different.. with that said it is silly to be so skeptical of high quality protein to support a high energy lifestyle
 

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protein and kidneys

Just thought I would throw in some of what I have been reading. I have an old dog with kidney issues. I decided to switch my dogs to homemade raw and because I wanted to know how it staked up with AAFCO I analyzed it. I was very concerned with high protein for the older dog - mine is very high. I googled it and found some sites that are saying it is not the high protein that is hard on kidneys, but rather high phosphorus. I found it very interesting that my food is a little low in phosphorus for AAFCO's growth and a little higher for maint. My dogs get three parts raw meat to one part mashed veggie. I dont use bones as my calcium source so that is probably why my phosphorus is not that high. My old dog is holding her own as her blood work is no worse for kidney function than it was 4 months ago when she was on Innova senior. I have noticed she is feistier now. She is a alpha gal and feeling a little young again I think.
 

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I use ground eggshell from free range organic hens. I use this because I want to know how much calcium I am giving and get the cA:phos ratio close. I dont know how to determine how much phos and CA is in bones and I am not comfortable with possible lead or other toxins stored in bones. Also my old dog just cant consume bones unless they were ground up. Eggshell is easy... I know how much CA there is and there are also 27 or so micro elements in the shell and very little phosphorus. I looked at both sides - bone vs. shell, and decided that eggshell will work best for me.
 
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Eggshells

Are a much more digestible form of calcium as well.

My dog does eat raw bones but he is two years old, very young and healthy, never been vaccinated, no toxic flea or heartworm meds, just the picture of health. The eggshells go in the Healthy Powder that is added to his food. He is a dog though so not a carnivore, he is an omnivore.

I have been training dogs for 16 years, That's thousands of dogs. I would not say that aggression is "a common characteristic of dogs". I think you have to somewhat cautious to make sure that your body of work isn't just your few dogs.

Tufts and Purdue both study large numbers. Experienced trainers train large numbers so we see trends. These high protein foods are new to the market so we'll have to wait a bit to see what the overall effect will be.

Hopefully it won't be as dire as I am suspecting. I do find it odd that the food companies won't answer questions on the subject and aren't tracking this. And these are the good companies!

Right now I probably switch two dogs a week from a 26% to 28% diet to an 18% diet and within two weeks the owners see the change. Sadly most people don't lead the active life that has been described here. They and their dogs are couch potatoes. So they need a different diet.

As do all dogs. My pup ate an all natural lemonade popsicle tonight! Now why on earth would a dog like that? (Well our A/C is on the blink, the repairman comes tomorrow) But, he loved it! Go figure!
 

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couch potatoes

I totally agree on lack of activity. My group is (mostly) young and high energy/high prey drive. We bought a lure coursing machine - and i dont own a single sight hound. two minpins, rat/beagle mix, and a young rottweiler. They love nothing more than to run all out after a plastic bag. I have not seen any increase in aggression with the high protein diet. The old one is a lot friskier though.
 
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