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I have three shelties and all three are fed my own recipe of home cooking:

Chicken breast, Liver, Cottage Cheese, Eggs, Apples, Green Beans, Carrots all in a base of steel cut oatmeal.
This has been Brandi's basic diet for the last three years. Kadin and Lacey have been on it since I adopted them. They are all of a good weight and healthy.
I brush their teeth three times a week and lately I have tried feeding frozen raw chicken wings to them to help keep their molars clean of tartar. Kadin does fine on the raw wings, he has a slightly loose stool the following day but nothing to be alarmed about. Lacey is less than ladylike when she eats them but doesn't seem to be affected by them at all. But my Brandi gets very lethargic for a couple of days. She vomits and has diarrhea the following day after she eats a raw wing. I'm not sure if it's a salmonella sensitivity or if her body just doesn't tollerate the raw food. I can't give the other ones raw and feed her something else, that doesn't work as we end up with her stealing Lacey's wing and she eats one anyway. I won't allow them to eat the wings in their crates so I don't have to wash their bedding two or three times a week... My thoughts are to par boil the wings I feed Brandi but she is still getting raw meat and will still have diarrhea. Any advise?
 

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I have three shelties and all three are fed my own recipe of home cooking:

Chicken breast, Liver, Cottage Cheese, Eggs, Apples, Green Beans, Carrots all in a base of steel cut oatmeal.
This has been Brandi's basic diet for the last three years. Kadin and Lacey have been on it since I adopted them. They are all of a good weight and healthy.
Is this food cooked? If so, and you're feeding it too close to the time you're feeding the raw wing, you greatly increase the chance for any potential salmonella in the raw food to manifest itself in the GI tract because the dogs are still digesting their cooked food at a much slower pace.

You have to wait at least 9 to 12 hours within feeding cooked food to feed raw (and vice versa) just to make sure that the system is able to handle the raw food and isn't still going slow from digesting the cooked food.

How far apart from their regular meals do you feed the wings? How often do you feed the wings? Do the dogs always chew the wings up pretty well before swallowing them (I know my lab/pit would eat her chicken whole if she could and sometimes she tries to but never quite manages).
 

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Chicken breast, Liver, Cottage Cheese, Eggs, Apples, Green Beans, Carrots all in a base of steel cut oatmeal.
Dogs are carnivores. If you don't believe me, I will go into it deeper and explain why they are and what makes them carnivores. Carnivores eat meat, bones, organs of any animal they can catch and kill. Carnovires don't eat any plant material at all. Their bodies are not designed to digest it and they can absorb no nutrients from them in the natural state. Drop the Cottage cheese, apples, green beans, carrots and oatmeal from their diet. Those are the things that are causing the problems the dogs are having.

Stop cooking. Dogs have been eating raw stuff in the natural state since time began. They have always thrived on it.

I brush their teeth three times a week and lately I have tried feeding frozen raw chicken wings to them to help keep their molars clean of tartar.
Change over to a prey model raw diet and you'll never have to brush their teeth again. My Abby who is 8 1/2 years old has perfect teeth that have never been brushed in her life. Neither have my Thors who is 4 years old. They both have the pearly white teeth of puppies.

I would prefer to feed chicken drumsticks to them than wings. Drumsticks are a little meatier and cheaper. I thaw my meat most of the time before I feed it.

Kadin does fine on the raw wings, he has a slightly loose stool the following day but nothing to be alarmed about.
Caused by the veggies you are feeding.

But my Brandi gets very lethargic for a couple of days. She vomits and has diarrhea the following day after she eats a raw wing.
Again, caused by veggies.

I'm not sure if it's a salmonella sensitivity or if her body just doesn't tollerate the raw food.
It's neither. Salmonella is not a problem for raw fed dogs.

I can't give the other ones raw and feed her something else, that doesn't work as we end up with her stealing Lacey's wing and she eats one anyway.
No need to if you eliminate the cooking and the veggies. Follow my suggestions on my web page listed in my sig. If you have questions, ask me and I'll be glad to help you.

I won't allow them to eat the wings in their crates so I don't have to wash their bedding two or three times a week
No need to wash bedding if you are feeding them properly. My Great Danes eat on the floor and I never have to clean up after them. They always clean their own spot. The cleanest part of the floor is where a dog ate last.

My thoughts are to par boil the wings I feed Brandi but she is still getting raw meat and will still have diarrhea.
Definately don't cook the wings in any form. You are asking for trouble if you do.

Any advise?
Hehe, I am never short on advice. :Smile:
 

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I'm not sure that your statement that dogs are carnivores is all that accurate. I certainly am sure that my nutritionist as well as my vet will disagree with you. I have developed this recipe over a long period of time with a professional canine nutritionist. Only the meat and eggs are cooked everything else is fresh or fresh frozen and grated in a blender. According to my experts dogs like humans are omnivores and they do eat animal digest (stomach contents) including plant matter as well as grains along with meat and bone and their digestive systems have the enzymes needed to extract proteins, vitamins and minerals from plant matter as well as grains. They can subsist on a vegetarian diet quite well for a while so they have to be more of an omnivore than a carnivore. A cat is more a carnivore than a dog is because they can't extract A, C and E vitamins from eaten plant matter because they lack the enzymes in their digestive tract and must extract the enzymes from the animal digest they consume in order to benefit from the vitamins. If you think I'm feeding the raw foods too close to the cooked food that is a possibility. I never thought of that. They eat their morning meal at 7 AM and their evening meal at 4:30 PM and I usually feed the raw wings either at noon or 7 to 8 PM.


Thanks
 

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I certainly am sure that my nutritionist as well as my vet will disagree with you.
Well, I don't know what to say except they are both wrong. Both were trained by schools that are heavily subsidized by the dog food industry. You see, the dog food industry MUST convince people that their dogs are omnivores in order to sell a grain based kibble to them. These companies have worked long and hard and spend many millions of dollars in media ads and monetary support to the vet schools.

I have developed this recipe over a long period of time with a professional canine nutritionist.
Your nutritionist is wrong. He/she is trying to make a home made kibble and is basing her nutrients on the ingredients in kibble.

Only the meat and eggs are cooked everything else is fresh or fresh frozen and grated in a blender.
Why are meat and eggs cooked? Why are the veggies and grains grated in a blender?

Let me answer those questions for you. Meat and eggs are cooked because of the unwarrented fear of bacteria. In all reality, bacteria is of no concern in a dogs diet. I have fed my dogs meat that smelled so bad I had to deoderize the kitchen and open an window and use a fan to blow the odor out. I have had dogs eat road kill squirrels that have been dead and laying in the hot GA sunshine for days. The never had an adverse reaction to these foods. Never diarrhea nor vomiting.

The veggies and grains are blended because dog's teeth won't allow them to be properly chewed and digested when in the natural state. That alone should tell you they don't need these items and they are unnatural in their diet.

According to my experts dogs like humans are omnivores and they do eat animal digest (stomach contents) including plant matter as well as grains along with meat and bone and their digestive systems have the enzymes needed to extract proteins, vitamins and minerals from plant matter as well as grains.
Again that is incorrect. David Mech, the worlds foremost wild wolf researcher, in his book Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation University of Chicago Press, 2003 states that wild wolves do NOT eat the stomach contents of their prey. He describes how they sissor open the stomach with their teeth, shake out the contents, THEN eat the empty stomach.

I have personally watched my dogs eat a whole rabbits many times. After they finish all that is left of the rabbit is a neat little pile of intestines and stomach contents strewn around the area. I have talked to many others who have the same experience with their dogs. None of us taught our dogs to do this. It is a natural behavior. To be honest, I have talked to a few people whose dogs do eat stomach contents of rabbits.

They can subsist on a vegetarian diet quite well for a while so they have to be more of an omnivore than a carnivore.
They can subsist for a while on veggies but do you want your dogs to subsist? Dogs thrive on meat, bones and organs. Because they are forced to subsist on veggies does not make them an omnivore. You can't create an omnivore by feeding a carnovore veggies. He is still a carnivore forced to eat an inappropriate diet.

A cat is more a carnivore than a dog is because they can't extract A, C and E vitamins from eaten plant matter because they lack the enzymes in their digestive tract and must extract the enzymes from the animal digest they consume in order to benefit from the vitamins.
Don't let anyone fool you. There are no degees of carnivorism. Either an animal is a carnivore or he isn't. Dogs and cats are both carnivores. Neither is an omnivore. The reason that a cat MUST eat meat regularly is because they cannot create taurine internally like a dog can so they must get taurine in their diet through meat. Both dogs and cats have the correct enzymes to digest meat, bones and organs. Neither of them have enough amylase (the enzyme to digest plant matter) to be useful. Omnivores like humans have a lot of amylase in their salava as well as their stomach and foregut. Dogs and cats don't have amylase in their salava or stomach.

Even if dogs and cats ate the stomach contents of their prey, they wouldn't be eating apples, green beans, carrots, or oatmeal. They would be eating grass, weeds, leaves and twigs. So if you feel you must feed veggies to your dogs, those are the ones to feed.

OK, here is the good stuff: There are physical charateristics that make an animal a carnivore or omnivore.

1. Carnivores have large mouths as they kill and eat other animals. Omnivores/herbivores have smaller mouths. It doesn't take a large mouth to eat plants.

2. Omnivores have flat teeth in the back of their mouths. These are used to crush and mash plant material. All plant material has each cell coated with cellulose. You much mash and crush this shell to extract nutrients from the plant. Humans have these flat teeth. Carnivores don't have flat teeth. They can't get through the cellulose to get to the nutrients. Carnivore teeth are designed to kill prey(front teeth) and to rip and tear meat and crush bones(back teeth). This is one reason you have to grate or puree plant material to all ow the dogs extract nutrients from them.

3. When omnivores/herbivores chew, they move their lower jaw not only up and down but also sideways in order to crush the cellulose. Carnivores don't have the ability to move their lower jaw from side to side. Only up and down. This is another reason you have to grate/puree. If you have to grate/puree plant material in order for them to extract nutrients, that should tell you that in nature they don't eat these things. Dogs have survived since teh beginning of time eating ONLY meat, bones, and organs because they are carnivores.

4. Omnivores/herbivores hae an enzyme called amylaze in their salava and stomach juices. Amylaze is used to digest plant material and digestion begins in the mouth for these animals. Carnivores don't have amylaze in their salava or stomach. They don't make the enzymes necessary for digesting plant material. Your nutritionist should know this.

5. I don't know how to explain it with words but there is a difference in the way the lower jaw is hinged in omnivores/herbivores and carnivores.

6. Carnivores have very acidic stomach juices to kill bacteria on meats and to digest bones. Omnivores/herbivores have much less acidic stomach juices.

7. Omnivores/herbivores have relatively long intestinal tracts. Carbs must ferment in the gut for a long time during digestion. Carnivores being meat eaters have a very short intestinal tract in order to get the meat through the body quickly before it rots. With thier short intestinal tract they are not able to have carbs in the intestines long enough to digest. Dogs have a short intestinal tract.

So there you have your biology lesson in a nutshell. There is no arguing the fact that dogs are carnivores. They have all the physical characteristics of a carnivore and none of the omnivore's characteristics.

I suspect your nutritionist and vet know the nutrients a dog needs and knows some of these nutrients are contained in plants but they don't consider how the dog will extract these nutrients from plants. All the nutrients a dog needs is in meat, bones and organs. There are no nutrients in plants that are not in the meat, bones, and organs of the prey animals that eat them. My dogs, as well as MANY others i know haven't eaten plants in many years. My 4yo Great Dane has never had plant material in his life except for occasional grass grazing in the yard. My 8 1/2yo Great Dane hasn't had any plant material in over 6 years. They are both happy, healthy, energetic dogs.

Cooking meat destroys many of the nutrients. Your nutritionist should know that. I have a paper on how cooking food effects different nutrients but I don't have time to find it now. Your nutritionist should have that. I do remember that enzymes are destroyed at 120 degrees F.

Why do you think they add so many nutrients to Kibble? The answer is because the cooking process destroys them and they must be put back in after the "food" is cooked.
 

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Bravo! I knew as soon as that was posted you'd be able to answer it much further in depth than I could've.

Another thing I didn't think of before is that you may also want to ask how this diet is exactly balanced since it has a way higher phosphorus to calcium ration than it's supposed to. Cottage cheese does add some calcium, but it also adds more phosphorus to it as well, so your dogs are probably a little bit calcium deficient... which would explain the looser stools along with all the plant content.

I don't want you to feel like you're being attacked or ganged up on, we're honestly just trying to help.
 
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