Dog Food Chat banner

21 - 40 of 48 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #21
Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently.

She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight.,

So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently.

She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight.,

So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.
OGD, I don't believe the sort of elaborate and extended transistitions between different proteins is necessary, nor do I believe in a magical order such as chicken>turkey>pork>beef for reasons stated earlier.

What is necessary is a transition between metabolizing carbohydrates as the primary energy source and having fats being the primary energy source (with proteins secondary) as many physiological changes need to take place. Going from carbs>fats is the "transition" that matters. Where one feeds pork vs beef isn't of similar significance.

I'm aware you found non-enhance turkey (good for you!) but many (including myself) find it difficult to find low-sodium turkey at a good price as a regular item (and I live in a major metropolis where more items are easy to find at the nice price). If one can get turkey and debone it fine, but dark meat is pretty fatty for a dog new to raw feeding so I'd hold it until the dog as conditioned to fat-burning.

I've heard you say you are feeding 10% bone. I've also heard you say (over the same time-frame) that Cricket's stools looked very bony. Boney stool is generally due to either too much bone or a dog not chewing bone-in pieces adequately. So I'd handfeed or serve frozen pieces to encourage better chewing. The vet thinking her GI tract is irratated points to the same two possibilities.

Honestly, from the pictures you posted—had I not known your concerns—I'd have said that Cricket's condition looks perfect. You have a better first-hand perspective, but also entertain the idea that raw fed dogs tend to drop most of their fat layer. They don't look like kibble (carb) fed dogs. Once should expect to see a different sort of physique. The body image most people in our society have of what a dog should look like is very skewed IMO towards an obese body type seeming normal. Having a rib show and having a tuck is optimal, not cause for worry.

I hope things improve for you and Cricket. It usually isn't this hard.

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
Bill, you literally said that you thought the transition wasn't necessary unless you were trying to figure out a food sensitivity. I can try and find the post if you want, but I distinctly remember you saying that. And for the laaasttt friggin time she is not bone heavy. 10%. On the dot. For like the past month actually less than that. Which I've also already said. And you've ignored. We don't feed her much turkey bone, and the turkey is not enhanced. At all. We check. Dilligently.

She is now 38 lbs, doesn't get nearly as much exercise as she used to because it's been very cold lately. She gets 2.5% of her weight which is 16 oz (which is supposed to be the amount for weight maintenance). Outlines of bones are fine, yeah, but not the whole actual bone, as far as I know, and you can see a lot of hers, and we're all super uncomfortable with the rate at which she has been losing weight.,

So if she hasn't been started the way any of you would have started her, even though I've done what I thought was the normal way to start them and have read everywhere I have looked, how should I restart her. Because I am beyond frustrated and stressed and want nothing more in the whole entire world than to have her be completely transitioned so that I can stop freaking out and worrying about my first puppy. We've been feeding 90/10 meat/bone (and super crazy small amounts of chicken liver) up until the rice and chicken. The meals we have portioned for the next two weeks are 90/10 meat/bone/super small amounts of chicken liver, 16 oz, and a mix of chicken and turkey.
for the last time.....i am going to tell you you are overfeeding. if a raw fed dog, to you, makes you this uncomfortable.......and you're freaking out, raw feeding may not be for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #24
Hey this is Kells' boyfriend, she's taking a break from the forum for a bit. She's very stressed as of late and wants to take a break from the internet in general. From what we've read, 2-3% of a dog's body weight is the optimal range for feeding dogs raw, with the higher percentages for more active dogs. Cricket is very active young dog and we feel that 2.5% of her body weight is the best spot to be in for her to get enough nutrition and also not lose weight. We have been trying our best to stick to 80/10/10 ratios for her meals, however we have been supplementing the 10% of organs as meat because we don't want her to get diarrhea from the livers and what not. We've been adding in tiny amounts to try and give her the nutrients she needs. And through all of that, her poops have been fine, no diarrhea, until we got to beef, when we accidentally gave her a piece of liver that she started getting cannon butt. her meal sizes have been consistent throughout her transition so I don't believe it's overfeeding that is causing her problems. I think we may have jumped the gun on getting her to beef and caused some distress in her GI that we only kept exacerbating by trying to fix it, thinking it was a bone problem, not a GI problem. I think it might have been a lack of research as to what could have been causing the diarrhea. We appreciate all of the advice and the help, honestly we probably wouldn't have gotten this far without the forum, but unfortunately this post seems to be running in circles as the same advice being given even though it has been already followed or we have tried it previously. Honestly I think we are going to try and transition her again, and be more consistent with her meal and bones, and not flip out about her diarrhea and rush to think it's a bone imbalance. Again I would like to thank you all for your help and support.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
This confirms what I said in an earlier post, that this started with the introduction of beef. Y'all are probably doing the right thing by Kells taking a break. I'm the meantime, think about this. Start over again with the chicken and turkey, and when you get to beef, just go very slow this time, and I believe all will be fine. Best of luck, and I hope Kells comes back soon and gives us an update.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
hi, kell's boyfriend.

i still think the dog is being overfed at 38 lbs and not getting as much exercise, due to it being winter.

be that as it may, most likely, it was the intro of beef and organs that did the trick....especially as beef and organ come last, not in the beginning.

between all of us, we have decades of experience in messing up our animals.......and then fixing them according to how they should eat, not what some guideline says.

so from me, you're hearing the 80-10-10 rule is not a rule, but a guideline. admittedly, i am in a very lonely belief camp on that one.......

having said that, i am also saying start over and feed two ounces less than what you started.

i'm sorry that kells thinks the dog is too thin. the dog is not too thin. the dog looks like a raw fed dog and it takes a little getting used to. in the beginning, i thought my dogs were prisoners of war and that i was starving them.

as it turns out, not so true........they are lean without a smidge of wasted fat on them.

so, when i say underfeed a dog, temporarily.....and only increase or decrease by an ounce at a time.......i am talking about fixing an irritated bowel.........if she gets george's aloe from amazon, that will help.....a shot glass twice a day.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
ps.

i have a collie who is now being fed 14 ounces. she weighs 60 lbs.
she looks like an ottoman....she had been fed 16-18 ounces......which is optimal for a dog her weight

having said that, it was too much food......for her metabolism.

so, there is no optimal.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
hi, kell's boyfriend.

i still think the dog is being overfed at 38 lbs and not getting as much exercise, due to it being winter.

be that as it may, most likely, it was the intro of beef and organs that did the trick....especially as beef and organ come last, not in the beginning.

between all of us, we have decades of experience in messing up our animals.......and then fixing them according to how they should eat, not what some guideline says.

so from me, you're hearing the 80-10-10 rule is not a rule, but a guideline. admittedly, i am in a very lonely belief camp on that one.......

having said that, i am also saying start over and feed two ounces less than what you started.

i'm sorry that kells thinks the dog is too thin. the dog is not too thin. the dog looks like a raw fed dog and it takes a little getting used to. in the beginning, i thought my dogs were prisoners of war and that i was starving them.

as it turns out, not so true........they are lean without a smidge of wasted fat on them.

so, when i say underfeed a dog, temporarily.....and only increase or decrease by an ounce at a time.......i am talking about fixing an irritated bowel.........if she gets george's aloe from amazon, that will help.....a shot glass twice a day.
Not to worry re.....I also believe in organs at least close to last, and 80/10/10 being only a guideline. I feed according to body condition as well, not numbers. You aren't alone!
 
  • Like
Reactions: magicre

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #30
thank you guys very much for understanding. We introduced beef at the very end of her transition, following a few guidelines we had picked up in our research. We plan to start the transition over again starting with chicken and turkey, as you guys suggested. We hope that this time we take enough time for her body to adjust so we don't get another bout of cannon butt.

Also Re, I will agree we are worried that she is too thin, but I trust that you know better than us and that is just her body transitioning to being raw-fed. It is worrisome to see her lose weight, but if it's natural on this diet, we won't let it get to us as much as we did this time around.

I am still worried about the amount she's getting fed, we do want to be sure that she's getting proper nutrients, if everyone truly believes that we should be feeding her less than 2.5% of her body weight, than I suppose it is worth a try.

Also Re, I do also agree that the 80/10/10 is a guideline, not a strict rule, but we wanted to follow it closely to avoid complications, we usually adjust the numbers as seen fit to figure out an optimum diet for her, but perhaps we overcompensated in one way or another. Don'y worry, our rigidity in following 80/10/10 does not mean that we hold it as a law in feeding our dog.

We love raw feeding cricket and we both believe it is the best way to feed a dog, and we will continue to do so, hopefully with your guys' support in the endeavor, thank you very much!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Many dogs are eating beef two weeks in to raw feeding (or less). Ascribing the diarrhea problems to "early" beef (when it has been months) is folly IMO.

I suspect Cricket is swallowing bone-in pieces nearly whole. I'd make sure you do something about that (hand-feed or feed frozen) as I do not believe for one moment the problem is beef. Beef does not irritated the GI tract. Bones do.

Bill
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Bill, this isn't your dog, Cricket is their dog and they know what they fed their dog, and when all this started. If they say it started with beef, then that's when it started. No one, including you has any right to doubt that and tell them otherwise.
 
  • Like
Reactions: magicre

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #33
So right after we woke up this morning, Cricket threw up two small piles of bright yellow. One had a bunch of hair in it, and one was just bright yellow goop. Kells mentioned that it was probably just hunger pukes from going from rice and chicken to meat again. She gave her some broth and her breakfast as normal. It hasn't happened again as far as she's told me. Just wanted to see what you guys thought. It's just making her worry.

Also, Bill, she chews her bone-in pieces very well, and I'm not sure what would give you cause to think otherwise. Sometimes she gets a little excited and does only chew it enough to break the bone a few times, but recently she has been chewing very thoroughly. Even breaking the bone, chewing the hunk off the rest, and then chewing it some more before swallowing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
I have one who occasionally does that in the mornings as well. I just give her a small amount of something, maybe just a few chicken feet even and she's just fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #35
Okay, good to know. Kells gave her some broth just to put something in her stomach until breakfast. She says that Cricket has been fine, and that her poop was pretty good this morning too.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Good! Thanks for the update!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
there are a hundred and one reasons a dog will bile puke......

one of which can, not carved in stone, but can result in bile pukes. feeding her chicken and rice is an old vet recommend.....for kibble fed dogs and humans.
we are learning that kibble and rice --- not so good for dogs nor humans.

i know this is so different.....it was for me, when i started and i never even got to beef LOL......before giving my dogs cannon butt, making me an expert, overnight, about the bowel movements of dogs

in thinking back.......the change in shape for my dogs was amazing and yeah, a little scary because kibble dogs just don't look the same, even lean ones.

i cannot begin to talk about how many people said i was starving my dogs. my dogs said i was starving them.

the truth of the matter is this.

they are getting every nutrient they need from protein/bone and fat. nutrients.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
here is something else to consider.

chicken and turkey are very gentle nutritions. this is one of the reasons a dog will lose weight.

when things go awry, and they do.......they are staying on chicken and turkey longer than anticipated.

it's not the only reason dogs lose weight, but it is an important one to note...so you don't panic......

i've looked at your dog pictures......and she looks good......she's going to look even better once we get you over this hump and you're feeding red meats with abandon......until that day, let's take baby steps and get this dog through the intestinal thing.

you can give this dog bentonite clay......for a week or so....a tablespoon per day.......and that will coat the intestines to help calm things down.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
in thinking back.......the change in shape for my dogs was amazing and yeah, a little scary because kibble dogs just don't look the same, even lean ones.

i cannot begin to talk about how many people said i was starving my dogs. my dogs said i was starving them.

the truth of the matter is this.

they are getting every nutrient they need from protein/bone and fat. View attachment 13202
True that!!!

I have a Vizsla. They run towards the athletic lean body type in any case. But Chester stands out. When he was really young I sometimes got comments, as he was not the rolly-polly type puppy people were used to seeing.

Now? At 2.5, as the muscle has filled out, and he's carrying almost no body fat? People just go "whoa" when they see him running.

He looks like a super-model.

Raw fed dogs just have a different body type. Once a person gets used to seeing what a natural diet does for a canine it is impossible to see dogs that carry a heavy fat layer as being "normal."

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
it took a while......now i just secretly smile......

and now i can 'tell' kibble fed dogs from raw fed dogs. the build is distinctive.
 
21 - 40 of 48 Posts
Top