Dog Food Chat banner

1 - 20 of 48 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So Cricket has been on chicken and rice after her butt-splosion. The vet suggested this for 3 days an then to transition back to raw. The vet said if we have any kibble left that it could be used as a transition (we do still have some Orijen left but I really don't want to do that). I was thinking of starting to give her rice with some raw and decrease the rice until its all raw? Or do cooked chicken and rice with some uncooked in it that we could use and slowly add in more raw? Or just fast for 12 hours and start with a small raw meal again. It's so confusing!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Go right into it like you would of coming off kibble. Start back over slow, and build up again. If you try to mix all this stuff in with the raw, you are likely to be back where you just came from. A confused digestive system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
So nothing for 12 hours and then a small raw meal? I'm just worried about starting small and only chicken again because she lost another pound and she is getting so skinny I'm getting afraid of what would happen if she looses more. We also have two weeks worth of meals prepped with chicken and turkey, would that be okay to start with?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Yea, chicken and turkey should be fine, but you have to start slow and in small amounts or you are going to be right back where you just were.

You don't have to fast if you don't want. I think you will be fine since you were on a bland diet already, not kibble.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OldGnarlHead

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
How small though? I don't think we can keep her on anything less than 16oz (which is 2.5% for her current weight) or she's going to loose too much more weight. We can already see all of her vertebra and almost all of her ribs and her shoulder blades, and her hips just started to poke out.. She's also been losing gobs of fur. We don't know if she's just shedding or what but she leaves piles of fur everywhere she goes and on us... We've been throwing around the idea of putting her back on kibble just so she can put some weight back on and then start over from scratch.. It's really upsetting because I really want our puppy to be fine and I really want the raw feeding to work and it's really frustrating because I know it's me that's making the mistakes not her or her body..
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Start with a chicken quarter for a day or two, and if that's ok go with another. Do like you did in the beginning before when you first started, but you shouldn't have to take quite so long between proteins. You know where the problem started, so be most cautious at that point. But you should be able to move along pretty well until then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
the one area i would not ask a vet would be in relation to nutrition.

chicken and rice will do more to upset the gut balance of a dog on raw food than anything else.

instead, i would have suggested trying bentonite clay for a week or so, until the stools go back to normal.......you can feed chicken/rabbit/turkey which are more gentle than red meat....and then gradually intro red meat again in very small amounts......we tend to start with a fingernail size piece of red meat and very slowly increase......depending on the age of the dog
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Like feeding just bentonite clay? Or with her meals? Cause we did that and her poops started to get better but they got so bad that we just couldn't not go to the vet anymore... Diarrhea for over a month made us so uncomfortable, too. We only have chicken and turkey in the way of non-red meat right now. We have chicken, beef, pork, turkey, goose, venison, and lamb on hand for now. And okay. Ill go slow with everything. She was fine on pork before and I intend on keeping her on a lot of it when she gets back to it... We're so uncomfortable with her weight it's really bothering us both.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Can you post pictures of her?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
The vet prescribed anti-inflammatories and antibotics to reduce suspected irritation in Cricket's GI tract.

The things most likely to cause irritation of the GI tract are either too much bone or too much unchewed bone passing through the intestines. This is consistent with the boney stools that have been frequently reported and the multiple episodes of diarrhea.

I'd listen to the dog's problems. And not to follow the same path expecting different results.

The vet was spot-on IMO in assertaining the root of the problem. I don't like the solutions of antibotics and feeding rice and chicken more than anyone else but it is clear to me this dog needed a break.

I'd change the path coming off this latest episode or would suspect the problems will return.

Changes I'd make:

Feed one a day. 10% bone meals (at most). Meat cushions intestines, so I would advise not doing a bone heavy meal and a boneless meal in a twice a day feeding regiment. Avoiding any bone-heavy meals will lessen irritation of the GI tract. And one a day is better for raw fed dogs (perhaps toys excepted) in any case.

I'd try to ensure that the dog is chewing by either hand feeding bone-in pieces or by serving bone-in piece frozen so the dog can't take one, two, or three chomps and swallow large unchewed chunks of bone. A frozen piece needs chewing.

In the transition I'd be tempted to feed a lot of eggs (with shells) instead of bone-in chicken. Egg protein is easiest to digest and you get calcium in the shell. I'd cook the whites untill just set in this case, either frying or soft boiling (leaving the yokes raw/near-raw).

I would not serve only chicken or turkey as I believe that is part of the problem. I disagree that there is a need to transition to other meat options items and that since the dog is clearly struggling with an irritated GI tract from too much bone (or badly chewed bone) passing through the intestines better to have more boneless protein.

My 2 cents.

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Listen, we started feeding her once a day and her diarrhea got so, so, so much worse, like almost back to the beginning worse. I don't know how many more times I have to say that her bone percentage is 10%. It's actually even less than 10% because the 10% that is supposed to be organ in normal PMR ratios is just meat right now. Not to mention that eggs give her horrible diarrhea, cooked or uncooked. Listen, I understand that what you are saying might work for your dogs, but not ours. Everything you suggest, besides the bone percentage which we have been doing anyway and have stated multiple times, would make or has made things worse. Yes, I will get pictures and post. Her nails are also starting to shred and her sternum has just become much more noticeable..









Pictures aren't great and don't show how badly her back shows, her hackles were up a bit from another dog barking outside.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
The vet prescribed anti-inflammatories and antibotics to reduce suspected irritation in Cricket's GI tract.

The things most likely to cause irritation of the GI tract are either too much bone or too much unchewed bone passing through the intestines. This is consistent with the boney stools that have been frequently reported and the multiple episodes of diarrhea.

I'd listen to the dog's problems. And not to follow the same path expecting different results.

The vet was spot-on IMO in assertaining the root of the problem. I don't like the solutions of antibotics and feeding rice and chicken more than anyone else but it is clear to me this dog needed a break.

I'd change the path coming off this latest episode or would suspect the problems will return.

Changes I'd make:

Feed one a day. 10% bone meals (at most). Meat cushions intestines, so I would advise not doing a bone heavy meal and a boneless meal in a twice a day feeding regiment. Avoiding any bone-heavy meals will lessen irritation of the GI tract. And one a day is better for raw fed dogs (perhaps toys excepted) in any case.

I'd try to ensure that the dog is chewing by either hand feeding bone-in pieces or by serving bone-in piece frozen so the dog can't take one, two, or three chomps and swallow large unchewed chunks of bone. A frozen piece needs chewing.

In the transition I'd be tempted to feed a lot of eggs (with shells) instead of bone-in chicken. Egg protein is easiest to digest and you get calcium in the shell. I'd cook the whites untill just set in this case, either frying or soft boiling (leaving the yokes raw/near-raw).

I would not serve only chicken or turkey as I believe that is part of the problem. I disagree that there is a need to transition to other meat options items and that since the dog is clearly struggling with an irritated GI tract from too much bone (or badly chewed bone) passing through the intestines better to have more boneless protein.

My 2 cents.

Bill
This started with too much beef and organs. Not chicken or turkey. The dog was fine with those, from what I remember.

And I disagree about the eggs. She'll go right back to where she came from. She found out from experience....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
Cricket looks fine, for what it's worth.

Not unduly thin IMO. The amount of "tuck" in the overhead shot is about what one would hope to see in a raw fed dog.

As to being "fine" on Chicken and Turkey Jenny, I've read the story from before day one. It has been very rough going for this dog IMO and not unpredictable. I have a very strong difference of oponion on how to start a dog and these sorts of results are why I don't share support for a very bone-heavy progession.

I hope you don't mind my offering an alternative viewpoint.

Bill
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
She does honestly look fine in the pictures to me. I think the pictures definitely don't show how badly her ribs back look, especially outside in the sun..

And her transition hasn't been bone heavy! As I JUST said her meals are at 10% if not less and have been since like day 3 when we stopped feeding whole chicken quarters! It honestly just seems like you're hell bent on making it seem like your way is the only way for everyone even when the person who you're advising has been doing that the whole time! The only time we've given more or less bone is when her poops got bony or soft, just like everyone else does! Maybe if there were more people advocating "The raw transition is a lie!" "Organs from day one!" and so on, we might believe you, but since a) you're the ONLY one I've ever seen saying this and b) our dog doesn't have a iron gut, I'm not just going to follow everything you say! Especially when we have in one regard and it made things worse!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Out of all those pictures, Crickett looks fine. I think starting back over you will be fine. She actually looks like just about all other raw fed dogs I have seen. If you get any pictures that show different please post them, but from it looks like things are fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
your dog looks perfectly fine.
she looks different than a kibble fed dog, but great for a raw fed dog.

how much does she weigh again? and how much exercise is she getting? and how much are you feeding per meal?

i'm sorry to keep pounding on and on about this, but you're too concerned with numbers and weight.

she is supposed to be lean...and yes, you should be able to see outlines of bone.....

once a dog gets cannon butt, the intestines are irritated...i doubt if the cause is from too much bone.
the intestinal lining has a mucosa to protect it from high acid, shards of bone and other things dogs eat, like bark or branches.

if this were my dog, i'd be feeding 1.5% of ideal weight.....i'd start over. wipe the slate clean

as to the chicken and rice? it's never been a good thing for dogs, but it is great for humans, allegedly. even that is being questioned by those who think the old ways are
simply not right.

an irritated gut does not require antibiotics...if anything, antibiotics, being harsh, will make things worse...and did.

i remember being where you are........i gave my dogs cannon butt and in the same way you did, i think.

it's all fine and well to give you advice and we go back to our lives, but you are right. this is your dog.

i can only say that hundreds of thousands can't all be wrong and that's what we are seeing with raw feeding.

some people make it very difficult and calculating....many of us don't anymore.....and, even though i weigh things out or my dogs would all be ottomans, i don't adhere to
what vets say, because they are often wrong........and do my own research.....

start over......
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
Cricket looks fine, for what it's worth.

Not unduly thin IMO. The amount of "tuck" in the overhead shot is about what one would hope to see in a raw fed dog.

As to being "fine" on Chicken and Turkey Jenny, I've read the story from before day one. It has been very rough going for this dog IMO and not unpredictable. I have a very strong difference of oponion on how to start a dog and these sorts of results are why I don't share support for a very bone-heavy progession.

I hope you don't mind my offering an alternative viewpoint.

Bill
Kells herself said it started with too much beef and organ.....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,271 Posts
And I agree with magicre, starting over is going to be your best bet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: magicre

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,780 Posts
bill, everyone has their way of starting things and no one is saying you're wrong.

it might not be my way or someone else's way, but it's a way.

this dog was never started the way i would now.........and did not respond well to whatever was done before we all jumped in.....

i really do think this dog needs to start over with less food.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
175 Posts
She does honestly look fine in the pictures to me. I think the pictures definitely don't show how badly her ribs back look, especially outside in the sun..

And her transition hasn't been bone heavy! As I JUST said her meals are at 10% if not less and have been since like day 3 when we stopped feeding whole chicken quarters! It honestly just seems like you're hell bent on making it seem like your way is the only way for everyone even when the person who you're advising has been doing that the whole time! The only time we've given more or less bone is when her poops got bony or soft, just like everyone else does! Maybe if there were more people advocating "The raw transition is a lie!" "Organs from day one!" and so on, we might believe you, but since a) you're the ONLY one I've ever seen saying this and b) our dog doesn't have a iron gut, I'm not just going to follow everything you say! Especially when we have in one regard and it made things worse!
OGD, I'm sorry to say but you are misinformed that "everyone" supports the sort of transition you've followed. I've been a long time member of another board (where Jenny is also a moderator) and over the years many members have voiced our strong disagreement with the bone-heavy "Quick Start Guide" published on that forum. Several of us have asked if we could revise that guide since many of our posts were spent convincing people NOT to follow the advice in that guide, or was spent dealing with the consequences of people dealing with the types of problems you are dealing with (because they did follow the Guide advice).

People have reached out to see if we could put up an alternative Guide but no response ever came from the website owners.

I had emails as recently as last week from a frustrated member who'd thrown up her hands at the lack of response.

That site is slow now (I saw you are a member) but many people came through who were guided to a more balanced start and none had the sort of difficulties you've had. In contrast those who followed the Guide and fed backs, necks, and quarters almost all ended up with cannon-butt.

It is precisely because your dog has a sensitive stomach that I offer an alternative (and gentler path). Irritation of the GI tract (which the Vet is treating) is evidence of a problem with bone. Either too much bone or insufficiently chewed bone. I offered suggestions (hand-feed or feed frozen) for how to improve chewing earlier. Heavy bone in stool (which you've also reported) is further evidence of the same problem.

I've never said "the raw transition is a lie." To the contrary, I urge people to ease the transition by iniatially reducing fat, as dogs need to be conditioned to metabolizing fats after being on all kibble (high carb) diets. Moving from one protein to another makes sense in eliminating issues of food intolerances or allegies, but has little other value.

The progression of chicken to turkey makes little sense to me as most turkey is problematic. The bone is often not soft edible bone, and most turkey has too much sodium ("enhanced") which causes diahrrea. Even clean turkey offers little nutritionally that chicken does not.

Pork as an early protein is problematic as most cheap pork cuts are very fatty. That fat is desirable once a dog is tranistioned to fat burning (IMO the critical "transition") but can promote diarrhea in untransitioned dogs.

Delay on organs denys critical nutrients and promotes food aversions. I've seen too many dogs started on organs early who never had difficulties and love organs, and too many delayed that have aversions and issues to agree with the advice to delay. I know many people who have done th same. Trust me I'm not alone.

Don't mistake that because I'm a lone voice (out a small handful on this forum) that there aren't many raw feeders who feel the way I do, as that belief ain't the case.

Bill
 
1 - 20 of 48 Posts
Top