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Discussion Starter #1
Hi, i'm new! i hope this is the place to post this question.

i'll try to be a pc as possible and forgive me if i get too clinical. i've read people that a dog's doo (oh heck with pc i'll just go with cutesy teeheehee) should ideally be a certain texture and size and a certain amount of times per day. but i do not have a very firm grasp about what a "firm" specimen should be and i have no idea how to judge the size or how often.

mana is a 4 month old labrador pitbull (weighs 25lbs),. eats three times a day (1 cup each meal). she goes between 3 and 4 times. one in the early am. one after lunch. and twice after dinner. right now she is on science diet lamb/rice puppy (ps: our vet exclusively sells every formula available). (which will change as soon as her shipment of 100% grain free comes in).

here are some stats if it helps:

frequency: 3-4 time daily

texture/firmness: firm enough that i can pick it up without it sticking to the grass.

size: bear with me ... diameter: maybe 1/2in. length: 6-8 inches (if unbroken).

sorry for being so technical. if anyone has any wisdom or thoughts to impart. they are VERY appreciated!
 

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You couldn't find a worse food to feed your dog except maybe for Ol' Roy from Walmart. The volume of your pup's stools seem huge to me. I have two Great Danes and their output is about 10% of your pups and they weigh 125 and 145 lbs. Poop volume is directly related to quality of food. Poop is nothing more that the food that passed through the dog undigested. Science Diet produces HUGE stools.
 

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^^^I agree. 3-4 times a day is way too much for a dog to be poopin'. Like RFD said, it all depends on the quality of the food. My dog poops about 10% of what your pup does. He goes only once a day. Sometimes, but hardly ever, he'll go twice. And he's 115 lbs. :smile:
 

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wow. I HAD NO IDEA! EEEK! now this is something i wouldn't have known! thank you. *sigh. to think i only asked because i was curious about comments made by other owners. thank you again! her diet will be changing very soon, if not by tomorrow.

note: at her first check up dh was asked if the stool was normal. and he guessed it was and that was the end of it. :(
 

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Her stool is normal for a kibble fed dog that is full of inappropriate fillers that dog food companys like to cram in there for the sake of money making:rolleyes:. Once you switch to a grain free kibble her stools will change to less frequency and amount, but your talking to people who don't feed kibble at all.:biggrin:
 

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When I did not read ingredient labels and went by gee that bag looks so inviting(( the outside of the bag ))knew nothing I also at one point fed my dogs which I thought was wonderful science diet. I think a lot of people have been down this road not knowing it was an unfit choice of food. heck the commercials for Iams, & Eukenuba sponsors dog shows, Purina is out there promoting their junk & we all get caught up in the hype of televsion and the magazine ads! But then we learn! We start to go to sights that tell us gee just read the ingredient label find products that have meat in the first two three ingreditents of he list, not by products or soy or corn or wheat in the product. Garuinless is a great great choice for your dog! There are places on line that sell them and if you have mom and pop stores to supposrt.
Well from the others you can tell your pups eating not a great food and is doing way too much popping! So going on a higher quality kibble and you can top it at times with a high quality canned (wet) food. There is a lot of good foods out there!
Go to dogfoodanalysis.com and look at the better quality foods! You will be happier with the less pooping! and your dog will give you lots of kisses!
 
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You couldn't find a worse food to feed your dog except maybe for Ol' Roy from Walmart. The volume of your pup's stools seem huge to me. I have two Great Danes and their output is about 10% of your pups and they weigh 125 and 145 lbs. Poop volume is directly related to quality of food. Poop is nothing more that the food that passed through the dog undigested. Science Diet produces HUGE stools.
Great synopsis!

Zio's "output" has decreased dramatically with him going on EVO Large Bites Turkey & Chicken (vs. a brand that shall remain nameless but is a big hit on some other forums).

Also, the quality tells in his ability to keep weight on with less food, even though he's so high energy.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
all this insight is invaluable. and it makes sense to me that the less stool she excretes, the more she is keeping to grow off of.

i have stopped SD for two days now. My first choice was Canidae GrainFree ALS. But since I wanted to get her off SD immediately, I bought TOTW Wetlands formula because it is the most grainfree brand i can buy locally (and therefore immediately) and also the one with less protien (26%) as she is a 4mo old. The bag says it's for all stages. And I'd like to give it a try since it's stocked at our local farm feed store.

I proportioned her SD and TOTW, but by her second bowl, she wasn't eating the mix. so out of curiosity, i seperated a few bits of TOTW and SD ... she ingested the TOTW and completely ignored the SD bits. For the last two days, she's been on TOTW, 100%. No vomiting or leaky stool so far.

HOWEVER, her stools have not changed. They are a very good consistency, pick it up without it sticking to the ground, and nicely segmented. But they are still big.

Do I need to wait a bit more or can I try the rest of the 5lb bag? thanks!
 

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Before I started feeding my dogs raw meaty bones, they were on TOTW Wetlands formula and their stools were the biggest I had ever seen. They were good quality, firm stools, but HUGE! :eek:

Sure, TOTW Wetlands is grain free. But the primary filler is potato, which is just as useless to a canine as grains and very much the reason the stools are huge. Your dog cannot process potatoes, therefore they pass right through.
 

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HOWEVER, her stools have not changed. They are a very good consistency, pick it up without it sticking to the ground, and nicely segmented. But they are still big.
This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.

If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.
 

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Before I started feeding my dogs raw meaty bones, they were on TOTW Wetlands formula and their stools were the biggest I had ever seen. They were good quality, firm stools, but HUGE! :eek:

Sure, TOTW Wetlands is grain free. But the primary filler is potato, which is just as useless to a canine as grains and very much the reason the stools are huge. Your dog cannot process potatoes, therefore they pass right through.
thank you so much! it's great to know from someone with that formula experience. your thoughts on filler make me wonder if they are there to of necessity ... to keep the protien content low.

This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.

If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.

great reasoning! i'll keep trying. i kinda had hopes got TOTW because it's available locally but i'll do what i must. and actually, the more i read about raw diet, the more i'd like to start her on it. of course, from what i've read it's not too good for a pup her age. but i'm gradually increasing my knowledge of raw as i have hopes of incorporating her food budget into the rest of the families (maybe a more economical).
 

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of course, from what i've read it's not too good for a pup her age.
I would love to know where you read that raw is not good for puppies so I can go tell them that they are wrong.

Raw is the best thing to feed a growing puppy. It give a more consistent base of nutrition that allows for more gradual growth than kibble does. My first Great Dane was raised on kibble and had numerous growth spurts. Our second Great Dane puppy has been raised on exclusively raw and has had no such growth spurts. She has had a more gradual growth over the past year and is as healthy as can be.

Actually the earlier you switch a puppy over, the better and easier the transition is because the less time the dog is exposed to kibble the better.
 

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This is not surprising. Grain free foods are *better* than grain inclusive because potato is a better quality filler, but a filler none the less. I see grain free foods as kinda like a bag of potatoes instead of a bag of grain. Some grain free formulas are better than others, so you might want to try and feed another one and see if it changes.

If you want "perfect" small bowel movements you will have to go raw exclusively.
Just had to say. I agree 100%
 

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Raw is the best thing to feed a growing puppy. It give a more consistent base of nutrition that allows for more gradual growth than kibble does. My first Great Dane was raised on kibble and had numerous growth spurts. Our second Great Dane puppy has been raised on exclusively raw and has had no such growth spurts. She has had a more gradual growth over the past year and is as healthy as can be.
No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?

Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?

I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.




 

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No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?
More anecdotal information ... BUT ... it has always been talk on all the Great Dane discussion boards about the numerous growth spurts Great Dane puppies go through. Tons of information about it, etc. Many many discussions. There were many discussions on how to stop these growth spurts because many physical problems were attributed to them.

However once a good number of Dane fanciers began feeding raw, it was quickly noticed that raw fed Dane puppies do not have these growth spurts. Growth is slow and even throughout puppyhood.

Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?
I don't find it misleading at all. People seem to assume that every batch of any particular kibble is identical to every other batch of the same kibble and thats just not true. They all vary very greatly depending on the ingredients in that particular batch. For example, Chicken meal only has to contain 51% chicken. The other stuff can come from any animal. One batch can be 51% chicken and the next batch 80% chicken. You just never know from one batch to the next what it will be. It depends on the garbage arriving at the rendering plant that day. This is the same will all the meals.

When you feed a chicken quarter, its 100% chicken every time. Thats consistancy.

I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.
Its often the fact that many people can't look at 2 + 2 and realize that it comes out to 4 every time. They have to have dozens of double blind studies before they are convinced.

ETA: If you notice the dog food analysis on each bag of kibble it says many times "not less than" or "not more than". This is because of the inconsistency of each batch of the food. Each run is different than the proceeding one.
 

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No offense, but unless you had a complete genetic background on BOTH dogs, then carefully charted the impact of all environmental factors on BOTH, how can you empirically attribute "numerous growth spurts" to kibble?
Like RFD said, a lot of raw feeders have seen these same results with growing puppies, especially from a lot of raw feeding Dane owners on that forum since we have to keep close track on their growth and bones. Testimonials and personal experiences mean more to me than clinical trials and research because usually those studies are not even close to what real life is like for dogs. I guess its all coincidence that it seems to be a major trend among raw feeders :confused:

And FYI: when you start off your statement with "No offense..." that alone is offensive to most people, or it just gives the disclaimer that "what I have to say is going to be offensive regardless of this disclaimer". Just start off your statement with what you actually mean to say. Just a thought.

Also, I find your assertion that raw is "a more consistent base of nutrition" than kibble somewhat misleading. On what are you basing this statement?
I am basing this off of numerous testimonials and personal stories that people have shared over the years about raising their puppies on raw vs kibble. The fact that growth spurts are not observed at least in most cases tells me that puppies are getting a more well rounded diet on raw as compared to kibble, with which growth spurts are a normality (at least with Danes because they grow so fast and so much in comparison to other breeds).

What do you find misleading about my statement?

We already know that there are not "scientific studies" done on raw feeding. All of our basis for following this diet are done on other peoples experiences and looking to nature.

I am not trying to start up yet another RAW vs kibble war. I just want people to realize that anecdotal information is not necessarily fact.
Unfortunately when asking these types of questions you are opening the door for another debate on raw vs kibble. Just comes with the territory...which is just fine with me!!! I love debating the subject and well equipped to do so :wink:

You are right anecdotal information isn't necessarily fact...but you can hardly say that the "scientific studies" are fact when they are all based on completely, 100% FALSE ideas and concepts. The whole "scientific" nutrition backed community is based off of a fallacy and nothing more. Unfortunately there are more "facts" than we can all keep track of and each "fact" is subjective to the person...one person may think that one thing is true or law but another think that person wrong in what they believe.

What I think is fact:

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY growing puppy or kitten.

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY adult dog or cat.

My "facts" may be based on anecdotal information and personal experience, but that is all I need to know to feel comfortable with saying these as facts to others. :biggrin:
 

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thank you so much! it's great to know from someone with that formula experience. your thoughts on filler make me wonder if they are there to of necessity ... to keep the protien content low.
Fillers are there for two reasons:

1. To bind all the junk in kibble together.

2. To fatten the bank accounts of the commercial pet food manufacturing companies.

It is NOT there to provide any nutritional benefit to your pet.
 

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what are you switching her to?
 

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What I think is fact:

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY growing puppy or kitten.

Raw is the BEST nutrition and diet for ANY adult dog or cat.

My "facts" may be based on anecdotal information and personal experience, but that is all I need to know to feel comfortable with saying these as facts to others. :biggrin:
facts are not thoughts they are proven. what you said were opinions.

if we wanted to go by the facts there are plenty of dogs on purina living to be 15-20.

although i agree that raw is what a dog should eat =p. but there is nothing wrong with a grain free meat based kibble like canidae, orijen ,evo. all good kibble.
 
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