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for some dogs a high protein food is like rocket fuel and may make reactivity worse. (some lady from agility said that)

Has anyone heard of this?

from Pet Food Choice - Diet and behaviour with dogs and cats


Effect of dietary protein content on behavior in dogs.
Dodman NH, Reisner I, Shuster L, Rand W, Luescher UA, Robinson I, Houpt KA.
Department of Surgery, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, North Grafton, MA 01536, USA.

OBJECTIVE
To determine the effect that feeding diets containing a low (17%), medium (25%), or high (32%) protein content would have on behavior in dogs.
DESIGN--Prospective, controlled study. ANIMALS--12 dogs with dominance aggression, 12 dogs with hyperactivity, 12 dogs with territorial aggression, and 14 control dogs without behavioral problems.
PROCEDURE--Dogs were fed each of the diets for a 2-week period, and owners were instructed to score their dogs' behavior on a daily basis.
RESULTS--Behavior of the dogs with dominance aggression, dogs with hyperactivity, and control dogs was unchanged by the dietary manipulations. Territorial aggression was significantly reduced when dogs were fed the low- or medium-protein diet, compared with territorial aggression when fed the high-protein diet. Post hoc analysis indicated that this effect was attributable to a marked reduction in aggression in a subset of the group (n = 7) in which territorial aggression was a result of fear.
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS--Results of this study suggest that a reduction in dietary protein content is not generally useful in the treatment of behavior problems in dogs, but may be appropriate in dogs with territorial aggression that is a result of fear.



Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs.
DeNapoli JS, Dodman NH, Shuster L, Rand WM, Gross KL.
Department of Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Grafton, MA 01536, USA.

OBJECTIVE:
To evaluate the effect of high- and low-protein diets with or without tryptophan supplementation on behavior of dogs with dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity.
DESIGN: Prospective crossover study.
ANIMALS: 11 dogs with dominance aggression, 11 dogs with territorial aggression, and 11 dogs with hyperactivity.
PROCEDURE: In each group, 4 diets were fed for 1 weeks each in random order with a transition period of not < 3 days between each diet. Two diets had low protein content (approximately 18%), and 2 diets had high protein content (approximately 30%). Two of the diets (1 low-protein and 1 high-protein) were supplemented with tryptophan. Owners scored their dog's behavior daily by use of customized behavioral score sheets. Mean weekly values of 5 behavioral measures and serum concentrations of serotonin and tryptophan were determined at the end of each dietary period. RESULTS: For dominance aggression, behavioral scores were highest in dogs fed unsupplemented high-protein rations. For territorial aggression, [corrected] tryptophan-supplemented low-protein diets were associated with significantly lower behavioral scores than low-protein diets without tryptophan supplements.
CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: For dogs with dominance aggression, the addition of tryptophan to high-protein diets or change to a low-protein diet may reduce aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, tryptophan supplementation of a low-protein diet may be helpful in reducing aggression.
 

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It doesn't sound to me like they really gave the diets much of a chance! 1 and 2 week periods is hardly a study..........
 
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What a joke, you would be less reactive too if you were being starved of what your body needs to thrive.

News break.... Solve dog behavior problems by starving your dogs into submission and doping them with chemicals.

These studies were probably funded by the crap food companies. Very poor studies, too subjective and too short.
 

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Hmm! My dogs eat a high protein dog food and the older two over 10 and one will be 7 January sleep a lot the other two over 4 years and just turned 2 play with each other, run around have chasing times outside so 4 dogs on the same foods different personalities! I don't think that study is right! I believe its the personality of the dog!
 

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for some dogs a high protein food is like rocket fuel and may make reactivity worse. (some lady from agility said that)

Has anyone heard of this?

from Pet Food Choice - Diet and behaviour with dogs and cats


Effect of dietary protein content on behavior in dogs.
Dodman NH, Reisner I, Shuster L, Rand W, Luescher UA, Robinson I, Houpt KA.
Department of Surgery, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, North Grafton, MA 01536, USA.

OBJECTIVE
To determine the effect that feeding diets containing a low (17%), medium (25%), or high (32%) protein content would have on behavior in dogs.
DESIGN--Prospective, controlled study. ANIMALS--12 dogs with dominance aggression, 12 dogs with hyperactivity, 12 dogs with territorial aggression, and 14 control dogs without behavioral problems.
PROCEDURE--Dogs were fed each of the diets for a 2-week period, and owners were instructed to score their dogs' behavior on a daily basis.
RESULTS--Behavior of the dogs with dominance aggression, dogs with hyperactivity, and control dogs was unchanged by the dietary manipulations. Territorial aggression was significantly reduced when dogs were fed the low- or medium-protein diet, compared with territorial aggression when fed the high-protein diet. Post hoc analysis indicated that this effect was attributable to a marked reduction in aggression in a subset of the group (n = 7) in which territorial aggression was a result of fear.
CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS--Results of this study suggest that a reduction in dietary protein content is not generally useful in the treatment of behavior problems in dogs, but may be appropriate in dogs with territorial aggression that is a result of fear.



Effect of dietary protein content and tryptophan supplementation on dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity in dogs.
DeNapoli JS, Dodman NH, Shuster L, Rand WM, Gross KL.
Department of Clinical Sciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, Tufts University, Grafton, MA 01536, USA.

OBJECTIVE:
To evaluate the effect of high- and low-protein diets with or without tryptophan supplementation on behavior of dogs with dominance aggression, territorial aggression, and hyperactivity.
DESIGN: Prospective crossover study.
ANIMALS: 11 dogs with dominance aggression, 11 dogs with territorial aggression, and 11 dogs with hyperactivity.
PROCEDURE: In each group, 4 diets were fed for 1 weeks each in random order with a transition period of not < 3 days between each diet. Two diets had low protein content (approximately 18%), and 2 diets had high protein content (approximately 30%). Two of the diets (1 low-protein and 1 high-protein) were supplemented with tryptophan. Owners scored their dog's behavior daily by use of customized behavioral score sheets. Mean weekly values of 5 behavioral measures and serum concentrations of serotonin and tryptophan were determined at the end of each dietary period. RESULTS: For dominance aggression, behavioral scores were highest in dogs fed unsupplemented high-protein rations. For territorial aggression, [corrected] tryptophan-supplemented low-protein diets were associated with significantly lower behavioral scores than low-protein diets without tryptophan supplements.
CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: For dogs with dominance aggression, the addition of tryptophan to high-protein diets or change to a low-protein diet may reduce aggression. For dogs with territorial aggression, tryptophan supplementation of a low-protein diet may be helpful in reducing aggression.

I don't buy it. Chocolate's behavior is no different on EVO then it was on pedigree. He's been eating EVO for 4 months now.
 

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Pfft...my old greyhound girl was on a high protein diet and she was pretty much the laziest dog in the universe. :)
 

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It doesn't sound to me like they really gave the diets much of a chance! 1 and 2 week periods is hardly a study..........

Agreed. For the study to be effective it needed to tracked over MONTHS not only 1 or 2 weeks.

Also I find their use of "may" indicative of the lack of actual hard data, especially in the conclusion.


 

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Agreed. For the study to be effective it needed to tracked over MONTHS not only 1 or 2 weeks.

Also I find their use of "may" indicative of the lack of actual hard data, especially in the conclusion.
I also suspect there is some unrealistic expectations of natural canine behavior if a 32% protein diet for carnivores is considered "high".
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
i am bumping this up because me and a couple of other people were discussing this on another post.

i have seen it first hand AGAIN since posting this.
Ruckus was doing great behavior wise. i decided to put him on wetlands from TOTW.
it took only 1 week and he was a monster. running around barking all the time, hackles raised, lunging at things...
i take him off of it, and put him on a lower protein food... a week later he is fine. so there is no doubt in my mind that something about a high protein food makes my dog off his rocker.

i know its not the popular opinion, but i have seen it with him. and other people have seen the connection too. and i did see many studies done on it. but i cant find them now.


From Foods That Cause Aggression in Dogs | eHow.com

Protein Levels and Aggression
# According to research by Dr. Nicholas Dodman at Tufts College of Veterinary Medicine in 2000, fear-aggressive behavior was significantly reduced in dogs fed a low (17%) protein diet when compared to medium (25%) and high (32%) protein diets. The same study concluded that dietary protein had no effect on dominant-aggressive dogs.

This study confirmed numerous earlier studies linking high protein levels with different types of aggression. The speculation is that high protein levels in the food provide an over-abundance of amino acids, essentially crowding out the amino acid tryptophan. Tryptophan is essential for seratonin production, which has a calming and stabilizing effect on canine behavior.



From Is Your Dog?s Food Causing Agression? Dog Blog – Doggyspace

studies show that some dogs are fed too much protein, causing them to become aggressive. Unless your dog is under a year old, pregnant, nursing, or an actively working dog such as a herding, sled, or hunting dog, a high protein diet is unnecessary and can cause dominance and territorial aggression. While studies have shown that puppies under a year old need a diet with 28% protein content and working dogs require a diet with a protein content of 32%, chances are your dog needs less.

Medical studies have determined that feeding dogs lower protein diets can help curb both dominance and territorial aggression problems. In some studies, besides switching to a lower protein diet, tryptophan was given as a supplement. Additives and fillers have also been shown to have a negative impact on dog aggression. If your dog is displaying aggression consider changing your dog to a lower protein diet, many veterinarians recommend about 18% protein, and choosing premium dog foods with little or no additives and fillers.

here is a pretty good link with lots of info. i was impressed, it actually explained why they think high protein diets can lead to a more aggressive dog.
Can Diet Cause Aggression in Dogs? | B-Naturals.Com Newsletter

i admit that it sounds a bit like hype. i know about canine nutrition, heck im a member of this forum for crying out load. i dont want to believe that high protein can make your dog more aggressive, but i definitely have seen it with my own dog, and have heard many stories about other people's dogs and the only thing that was changed is an increase in protein.

this is also a good read. take a look
http://kindnesscanine.com/content/view/52/96/
 

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I am going to post in here but to point out what happened with Becka.
But
Coming from a science / Medical background I am not quite in a position yet to make a firm conclusion. My hope is that Over the next few years myself and my trainer can make some inroads in this area (she has the dogy knowledge I have the chemistry)

When I first got becka I was feeding her Royal Caninn food which is 30 % protein. She was at her most hyper 15 minutes after eating. I was concerned as this is the child on smarties syndrome. Various people mentioned the protein content as being the source of the problem. (my thread post: http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/3840-protein-content.html)

However, for each one that said it was a problem equal said it was not. Their main argument that protein content is not the problem is the raw feeders, who generally feed more weight of protein that kibble feeders.

I am now feeding approximately 66 % more protein than I was when feeding kibble but the problems are not there.

On looking at the proteins in royal cannin they are specifically designed to be bioavailable meaning they are absorbed dead quick.

I liken this to comparing toasted brown bread to glucose weight for weight and calorie for calorie they are almost the same, but one will give you a sugar rush one will not.

Dogs use protein as their energy source so I think it is the same.

Hopefully if people are still interested in a year or so I might be able to come up with a proper scientific view.
But as RFD mentioned how to you monitor it with out using opinion and testimony while you are still being nice to the dog!!! (no food and treadmill suggestions please).
 

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Hmm...just sounds like the protein is giving these dogs more energy, and they need to find ways to exert this energy.

Let's consider it this way, say Dummy (and I use this name as in test dummy, and not in a negatory manner) fed his dog a low protein food for a year, and the dog was always very mellow, and every once in a while would play a lot. Dummy got used to taking his dog for a walk once a week, and just throwing the ball for ten minutes to exercise his dog. Well, then Dummy learned about higher protein foods, and how they're better for your dog, and blah, blah, blah, so he decided to try it, but suddenly it was a whole new ballgame, and his dog was bouncing off the walls. Well, perhaps this is due to the fact that Dummy got used to a shorter exercise routine for his dog, and continued with that short routine, but suddenly it wasn't enough, because his dog had a lot more energy and now needed new ways to burn it off? Or perhaps the dog just didn't know how to react with its newfound energy and needed to be retaught on proper manners, because Dummy never really had this problem before and never had to correct the behaviors?

I'm not saying that anybody who has ever experienced more behavioral problems from feeding a higher protein is not a good owner, or anything, but perhaps it's just misconstrued and not properly understood? I think there's a deeper meaning to it than just higher protein causing worse behaviors in dogs, but rather the fact that the owner and dog never learned to cope with higher energy levels. After all, higher energy dogs do take a lot more maintenance to make sure they don't become too aggressive, dominant, manipulative, hyperactive, etc.

Make sense?

I could just be spewing a bunch of BS, though, too, but I thought it'd be an idea to put out there to chew on a bit.
 
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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
see the thing is, my dogs are not under exercised. i used to have border collies, so i have gotten into the habit of exercise exercise exercise,and keep them busy with jobs. so that is what i do with the shelties. we do agility, and they go hiking and back packing with me weekly, even carry their own pack. 1 and 1/2 hr daily walks, trips to the creek weekly....
and its probably safe to say that we practice on agility nearly daily.
mentally we do home made games and puzzles and do a little bit of tracking, and some obedience probably every other day.

i adore high energy dogs because they can keep up with me. its not a question if i can keep up with them. i feel like i can handle it. (yet hubby is STILL dead set against me bring home a jack russell or even a border collie/jrt mix.)

and Ruckus (the dog in question) is not a high energy dog in the first place.
i honestly think that you are right xxshaelxx! i agree with you 100% but not with my particular dog. it really does seem to me that perhaps for some unknown reason some dogs dont deal well with a high protein kibble.

we also have another sheltie, and a shih tzu senior eating a high protein dog food and they are doing awesome.
and my foster collie girl has been eating it and does great too.
 

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Oh wow, hmm...Maybe he's just built up a lot of stamina and endurance to all the activities, but still suddenly finds himself with even more energy due to the high protein food. But given that you pretty much already exercise him as much as is humanly possible, perhaps there's not really anything you can do about it. Like, I was an extremely active kid, like, could never stop moving (my mother would punish me by forcing me to sit still, without moving a muscle, for, like, five minutes, and it was AGONY!!!), but when I had sugar in me, gawd help everyone around me. I was INSANE! haha. Perhaps it's just, like, a sugar rush?
 
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