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Ground Raw

8K views 57 replies 9 participants last post by  RawFedDogs 
#1 ·
Is feeding ground Raw the same as feeding whole Raw? Could I feed ground raw as the main diet and then give marrow bones and or pork ribs a couple times a week as a treat and to help their teeth?

Just curious and thought I could get good advice here on this.

Thank you for all your help!
 
#2 ·
Ground raw is certainly not ideal. It doesn't provide dental benefits. It allows more bacteria to infiltrate the meats. If you buy it someplace you have no idea of what is really in it or it has a bunch of crap that your dogs don't need. Typically it is pretty expensive compared to PMR style meats.

All that being said, you could give your dogs primarily ground and RMBs every once in a while to help with teeth and I'm sure they would be fine. Would I? No, because it is not as good as whole raw meats IMO.
 
#7 ·
I don't want to necessarily feed ground was just curious really about the differences. If you guys say whole is best then I will stick with whole. Just wondered if ground was just as good. Also, I am a freak about the whole raw in the house thing. I am able to feed outside now since it's summer but in the winter I will be worried about germs and mostly because of my kids. With ground it can just go in a bowl like kibble and they will eat it a bit neater.

That list that I sent to you is for whole and ground though. Would you guys be able to tell me what to get?
 
#8 ·
What I would order:

Chicken- whole leg, quarters, frames, whole fryers, feet (good source of glucosamine)

Turkey- wing, leg, frame, whole, necks

Pork- heart, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas (mostly because of the size of these organs because fowl organs are small and messy for large breed dogs and beef organs are TOO big. Pork organs seem to be the best size to deal with. For these, if your dogs WILL eat these happily I personally would get them ground just for ease of feeding)

Beef- heart, ribs if you can find them elsewhere

Rabbit- feeder rabbits

Rest of the fowl birds- pretty much it all would work.

With all this being said, these prices are at least twice what we pay. I personally would find a cheaper route, unless budget is not an issue. It would be great to order and get food from only one source, but we need to keep the bottom dollar in mind. We typically don't spend over $1 per pound for any of our meats except some game meats which we wont pay over $2 per pound for. Just for example, Walmart sells chicken quarters for ~.65 per pound which is .30 cheaper than this co op. Just food for thought. Hope this helps!
 
#9 ·
Thank you so much Natalie. Budget IS a HUGE issue for us so it really does matter. I am still waiting on a list from another meat distributor. They were supposed to call me back today but didn't. I will call them tomorrow. When I get the list and prices from them I will send that to you as well. I am not sure what is a good price and what is not since I am so new to this. I can not thank you enough for all of the help that you and Jon both are giving to me and continue to give. I hope I am not being a pain.
 
#14 ·
I feed some ground but it's not too significant. Only makes up about 25% of their diet with the vast majority being raw meaty bones.
 
#16 ·
something i've watched happen in the six months we've been on raw....

two awkward dogs learned how to eat raw...and their neck muscles...are like body builders now...LOL

their jaws can tear through pieces of protein that they couldn't do before...

my pug's feet are so strong from standing on his food and holding it down...he couldn't do that before.

my pug doesn't hork anymore....he's learning how to eat without trying to swallow the food whole...

when i give ground, it's because i forgot about it and it's got a little freezer burn on it, so i don't eat it....but i make meatballs and freeze them...on a hot summers' day, it's a great treat....

it sounds as if you're afraid of the bones....they learn. they really do. believe me, if my pug who does NOT have the dentition for raw....can do it..anyone can...:)

and natalie? i can't get prices like you get...wow...even when i shop sales....i'm moving next door to you.
 
#21 ·
OK...yet another question. Is it possible to do this....

Primarily feed chicken, turkey, pork, and ground organs. Then only once in a while throw in something like a beef heart of pigs tongue or feet? I am really having some issues dealing with all of this meat. I went to the store last night and bought beef heart, beef liver, pork liver, pork tongue, chicken feet, chicken and pork gizzard, chicken liver, one case of turkey necks, and pigs feet. I seperated all of these appropriately in containers and put them in the freezer. I just am not liking dealing with all that variety. Sooo...now that I have it all (for now) can I just throw those things into the mix here and there but primarily feed chicken, turkey, and pork as their everyday, meals? Do I have to feed the same kind of meat each day or can I feed chicken in the morning and pork at night? Right now they are having chicken backs and necks for breakfast and chicken quarters de-fatted for dinner.

Additionally, it looks like they are losing weight especially the puppy while going through this process, is this normal?

I may have more questions but for now I am sure that will keep some of you busy...ha ha. I know I'm a pest but I appreciate ALL of the help, I really do.
 
#25 ·
Primarily feed chicken, turkey, pork, and ground organs.
I would add some beef ... beef heart is great and is not an organ, rather it's muscle and fat. I would also have some fish in the diet.

Then only once in a while throw in something like a beef heart of pigs tongue or feet?
Beef heart is great. I feed it once a week. Pig tongue isn't bad but I don't think it adds much to the diet. Feet, I wouldn't bother with for meals. You MIGHT want to use them as treats but I don't.

I am really having some issues dealing with all of this meat. I went to the store last night and bought beef heart, beef liver, pork liver, pork tongue, chicken feet, chicken and pork gizzard, chicken liver, one case of turkey necks, and pigs feet.
I owuld leave out all the feet and tongue. I would also eliminate the chicken gizzard. I didn't know there was such a thing as pork gizzard but I would leave it out, too. After you have been feeding for 4 or 5 months and have gotten into a comfortable routine, you can add whichever of those other things you want to and if you don't want to add them back, don't.

I seperated all of these appropriately in containers and put them in the freezer. I just am not liking dealing with all that variety.
Variety is good but in the beginning while all is so new to you, I wouldn't bother with the things I mentioned above.

Sooo...now that I have it all (for now) can I just throw those things into the mix here and there but primarily feed chicken, turkey, and pork as their everyday, meals?
If it were me, I would add beef heart once a week or so and some fish evey couple of weeks. Other than that, go with it.

Do I have to feed the same kind of meat each day or can I feed chicken in the morning and pork at night?
I would be careful right now but in a couple of months you can mix and match however you want. I know some people will feed some ground beef or turkey and add a chicken back for bone. Thats not necessary but some do it.

Right now they are having chicken backs and necks for breakfast and chicken quarters de-fatted for dinner.
Cool, my dogs will get that exact same thing about 3 or 4 days a week but I don't de-fat anything.

Additionally, it looks like they are losing weight especially the puppy while going through this process, is this normal?
Some loose, some gain, some stay the same. I wouldn't be too concerned. In a couple of months after you have your routine worked out and they have adjusted, you can adjust volume to control weight. Often when dogs are switched they loose fat but gain muscle and they look thinner. As long as they don't get extremely thin or fat, don't worry about it for a month or so.
 
#22 ·
Right now you aren't going to have to worry about all that meat until your dog is used to the diet, slowly moving from one meat source to another makes for no unneeded diarreah. Stay with the chicken backs and quarters for awhile, then slowly add in a new meat source like turkey, then pork, then beef, fish, then organs. The puppy will be able to move faster in the diet than the older dog, but variety is key to a good prey model diet.
 
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#23 ·
I know that I am not in need of all of those meats at this time, just wanted to get stocked up sooner rather than be frantic about it later.

Ok...I am sticking with the chicken for now, and intend on introducing little by little other meats. Just was curious about if I could primarily feed the chicken, pork, and turkey and then throw organs in the mix occassionally and then maybe a fish once a week. I also bout 2 whole mackarel and 2 whole whiting last night and they are also in the freezer for them for later.
 
#24 ·
Once the dogs are ready, fish is needed at least once a week, some dogs won't eat whole fish but maybe you won't have that problem, its important for the omega 3 fatty acids, Also, red meat preferably from grass fed sources are a good source of omega 3 fatty acids that dogs don't get from white meat.

Just don't make the mistake of only feeding white meat and no red meat sources, organs every few weeks when they are ready and fish once a week. Good Luck, off to work I go!
 
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#27 ·
Aren't you glad you joined here?!

I wouldn't add anything else in for now. You really want to stay with bone in chicken for two weeks. Especially since your dogs were having diarrhea in the beginning. Just take things nice and slow.

And to answer your previous question, our dogs main protein sources are pork, chicken, turkey, beef and fish. It's perfectly fine to feed just turkey, chicken and pork most of the time.

Keep up the good work!
 
#28 ·
I knew you'd come to the rescue Nat!!!!

Thanks a bunch. I suppose all of the stuff that I have bought and froze can be used down the line as little "extra's". As RawFedDogs said above...I am thinking of primarily feeding prok, turkey, and chicken. Then giving beef heart once a week, organs every two weeks, and fish every two weeks.

Does that sound ok? How about all the stuff that I bought last night, was that stuff appropriate?

As for "de-fatting" the chicken. How long should I continue this? I started it because of the cannon butt that the two of them were having.
 
#29 ·
How is their cannon butt doing? If you are seeing normal stools you can start to taper cutting fat off. If still seeing soft poo go ahead and continue trimming and just keep an eye out for stool condition.

All the stuff you bought sounds definitely appropriate but what I consider to be the "extras" to the diet. Remember that organs only should make up ~10% of the overall diet. We only feed organs once every two weeks as well, but some peope feed just a very little bit everyday. Either way is just fine.

Sounds like you will be feeding almost the exact same routine that we do! Also keep in mind that red meats are considered the best and most appropriate for dogs to eat, so
maybe try and find a connection with a wild game processing place to get a hookup on venison and elk.
 
#30 ·
Their cannon but is no longer...YAY!!!! Ok, then I will start to taper off cutting the fat...it was a PITA anyway.

Since I am going to give the organs ground I really could do them either way.

As for Venison, my husband and our good friend hunt every year. If they don't get a buck they always come home with at least one doe. None of us like Venison and the firend that my husband hunts with knows how to butcher the deer, soooo that makes for TONS of venison for my guys come November!!!! WOO HOO!!!!!
 
#33 ·
Now see....this is where I start to really get confused. So many people have so many opinions on what you should and shouldn't feed. For the most part I do know at this point what to do FOR NOW. BUT, on a group I belong to I was just told that chicken backs & necks & quarters as the strict diet for now is NOT enough meat for the dogs. AHHHHHHHH someone PLEASE help me here!!! Are they not getting enough meat? Should I add more meat or something???
 
#35 ·
I understand exactly what you are saying. There are raw feeders who have to do everything by the numbers. They swear by a 80-10-10 ratio of meat, bones and organs. Problem is, no one measures their own diet that close. You feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. Exact ratio's don't matter. If you don't measure the exact amount of nutrients in your diet, why do it for your dogs?

I've been feeding my dogs raw for 8 years. I NEVER pay attention to ratios. I feed chicken backs every morning. I feed chicken leg quarters about 3 evenings a week. I've been doing this all my raw feeding life and my dogs are healthy and show no signs of any nutritional deficiency.

80-10-10 is an arbitrary number someone came up with years ago. Like a lot of things, she said it, a couple of people repeated it and all of a sudden it became carved in stone. Baloney!!! This person took a few wild prey animals, cut them up, tried to debone them as well as she should. She then weighed the bones, organs, and everything that was left and came up with the ratios. As far as I know, no one else has attempted to verify these numbers. I can't remember for sure what animals she cut up. Seems like it was a deer, a goat, and a rabbit but I may be all wrong about that.

I have never paid any attention to the ratios and my dogs have not suffered from it. One of my Danes is 10 years old and after a blood workup a few weeks ago, the vet said she had the liver of a 3 year old.

Mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. A variety of animal parts from a variety of animals. If their poop is too soft, feed more bone. If their poop is white and powdery right out of the chute, feed less bone. If they are constipated, feed more organs. Feed pieces large enough that they can't swallow them whole. If the dog gets two fat feed less. IF the dog gets too thin, feed more. There ... thats all you need to know once you are through the adjustment period. This is not rocket science. It's feeding a dog. If you can feed your family, you can feed your dog. :smile:

One more thing you need to understand ... you can interview 100 different raw feeders and you won't find any two who feed exactly the same way. The paragraph above tells you all the essentials. Everything else is what feels good to you and your dogs. In time you will get a routine worked out and all will run smoothly.
 
#34 ·
Are you talking about DOL?

I urge you to stay on bone in chicken for two weeks. This can be backs, quarters, thighs, etc. They are right that this isn't enough meat for a well adjusted dog on raw. BUT since your dogs are still VERY new to raw feeding you NEED to feed a lot more bone than a normal diet. Why? Bone firms stools up. If you were to lessen the amount of bone and increase the amount of meat at this point in the transition you WILL see loose stool/diarrhea.
 
#36 ·
Ok...I will listen to what you are saying. No it actually wasn't on DOL it was on a yahoo group I belong to. I totally trust you Natalie that is why I posted this here.

Should I be feeding Luke is whole 4lbs and Gracie her whole 1 1/4lbs a day now? Just split into two meals between the necks, backs, and quarters?
 
#38 ·
Not the full a,mount that's for sure.

Gracie gets one chicken back and about 3-4 necks in the morning and Luke get's 2 chicken backs and 3-4 necks in the morning.

Dinner, they each get one quarter and a few necks.
 
#42 ·
i saw your post...and saw the responses about feeding them quarters, not backs...

that was the advice i got, too....and i had to clean up cannon butt until i got to bill (rawfeddogs).....and then here and everyone helped so much.

some dogs don't have any problems...at all. give them a piece of whatever and they are glorious...

and then there are my dogs and your dogs and oops....the script needs to be tweaked.

this is so much more relaxed than reading posts about whether or not a ten year old deer head is fit to feed or how long can roadkill be on the side of the road before it becomes unsafe....

at the moment, the only thing i think you need is a martini, a deep breath, and probably a few more freezers LOL
 
#46 ·
Hey everyone- Just wanted to give yet another update. Both Luke & Gracie are doing really well. They have pretty much adjusted and I have introduced them to some beef as well as small bits of liver. They are taking to all of it. Occassionally Luke will have a runny poop, Gracie's poo's have been very good and consistent. I am still "adjsuting" as neccessary i.e. bone versus meat. I am now NOT jumping on any and all that I see posted on the forums and or groups, I pretty much just read and take it all in and do my own thing. I am at the point now where I feel pretty confident that I know what I am doing but am also not afraid to ask (certain people) when I have a question to ask.

I took them both to the Vet for a check up, my vet was amazed at how Gracie's teeth look, they are sooooo white. (she had BAD tartar before RAW), also got a compliment on how soft and shiny LUke's coat is. We are so please with what is doing for our "kiddo's" so far.

OT: Natalie & Jon.....Luke is walking MUCH better, the cowhocking looks minimal now. The vet checked him thoroughly, Luke shows no signs of pain, Doctor felt his hips and maneuvered him a few ways and he feels as though all is well with Luke. No signs of PANO, HOD, or OCD. The Doctor said that he looks like a very healthy puppy and that his weight is perfect for his height and age. We are so happy....I was a terrible mess about that whole thing with his legs two weeks ago. I feel much better now. He also said that he has nothing against RAW at all and he thinks it is great since he even noticed the few changes already...i.e. Gracie's teeth. He said he does not feed RAW personally but thinks it IS a fine way to feed your pets. I was happy with that, better than some Vets that will lecture you FOREVER and I was definitely NOT wanting to hear all that. Some of the people I come across on here and other groups have nightmare stories about what they deal with at the Vet office because they feed RAW.

Ok...enough rambling. I just wanted to update you all. Have a great weekend!!!!
 
#49 ·
I am having some issues and am in need of advice.

Gracie is still doing well with her stools however....Luke is not. He literally walks around the entire yard in a squat position and nothing comes out...when something does it is a smal squirt of diarrhea. It seems to me as if he is blocked up. Since we notice this on Sunday we have cut back on bone but that hasn't helped either. I am not sure what to do.
 
#50 ·
He's not blocked up. Don't cut back on bone, increase it. Bone acts as fiber in the diet and will get stuff pushed through.

Cut out the liver for a while. Liver can cause diarrhea early in the diet. Actually if too much is fed, it can cause diarrhea late in the diet. :smile:

Cut down on the size of meals. Feeding too much at one time can cause diarrhea. Feed an extra meal if you need to but not too much in one meal.

Trim the skin and fat from his food for a while until he gets firm again.

Exactly what are you feeding him now?
 
#52 ·
Cut out everything but bone in chicken. I think you've added way too much boneless, high fat meats in too early. You need to add these types of things in very slowly and gradually. Two and a half pounds is a LOT of boneless high fat meat for a newly switched dog, even for a well adjusted raw dog.

I suggest you feed chicken bone in and cleaned of all skin, fat and organs for at least two weeks. Then introduce bone in turkey gradually alternating with chicken for two weeks. Then add in bone in pork and alternating with chicken and turkey. You shouldn't feed a boneless meal for about a month.
 
#53 ·
Cut out everything but bone in chicken.
I agree with everything that Natalie said but I would also cut the volume some. I would try 2 chicken backs in the morning and 2 in the evening for a week or until he gets solid again. Then you can add in meatier chicken parts (bone-in) for the balance of the two weeks. I would freeze that butcher trimmings for a month or so. They are very high in fat and so is ground beef. Try some pork ribs or pork roast the 3rd week and see what happpens. After that, ask more questions and we will slowly add in different food.

You can't rush the process. You see what happens when you do. :smile:
 
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